USPSA Carry Optics Musings...

[Doublehelix]

As the title suggests, I am just musing over *thinking* about *possibly* considering *exploring* a Carry Optics transition. (How about that sentence for being non-committal!!!)

I am currently shooting Limited Major (2011 chambered in .40), but as my eyes and body age, I am considering what the future might hold for me in a few years (I just turned 59).

The red dot will be easier on the old eyes, and although minor PF won't be fun, the 9mm rounds will be easier on the old joints as well.

A few thing to think about and to ask for some insight on:

1) Red Dot Size: I just put a Vortex Venom 3 MOA red dot on a .22 pistol to mess around with at Steel Challenge matches. I do like it, but I think I should have chosen the larger 6 MOA dot size. Comments?

2) Red Dot Brand: I like the price and size of the Vortex, but the Cmore RTS and the Trijicon RMR seem to be the most popular ($$$$$). Worth the difference? Why or why not?

3) Firearm: I have no desire to go DA/SA, so anything with a "CZ" on the frame is out of the question. Thi sort of leads me to striker-fired "Plastic Fantastic" models (not my favorite either). I have tried shooting Glocks and they are not for me, so let's leave it at that. Won't ever happen. The only striker-fired handgun I own is an HK VP9, which is a nice gun and I can shoot it well. I keep it bedside at night however with night sights, so if I modify it to accommodate an optic, I will need another bedside gun. It seems as if the SIG P320 (especially the X5) is a popular choice in this division. I shot one several years ago and did like it... Thoughts/opinions?

4) Special USPSA Rules: Am I reading the rules right that I can use 140mm mags? That is great news. I always thought that the the CO division was identical to Production with the addition of an optic. I dreaded the 10-round limit, so I am thrilled by this. No magwells and there are some restrictions on the holster design and placement. I read up on the internal and external modifications, and the rules seem pretty flexible as long as none of the safety features are disabled. No barrel porting (which is fine with me) or compensators. Any other "gotchas" that I need to look out for?

I can get a red dot mount for my VP9 that replaces the rear sight and test it out for a while with my Vortex before either committing to having the slide cut for a real red dot, or picking up a new gun like the SIG P320 X5.

Again, I am in no hurry here. I am sure I will be shooting my 2011 for the foreseeable future, but I want to start exploring and preparing for a change. I know that the red dot takes some time to get used to as I see that already with the .22 pistol.

Thanks for any advice or tips.

 

[waktasz]

They updated the rules to CO a few times already. Now you can modify the grip texture and shape, run any type of aftermarket trigger, have 140mm mags, add texture or serrations to the slide and a few other things. Best to check the rulebook appendix.
The 320 x5 is a good choice. CZ also makes some polymer models that are pretty well received.

 

[waktasz]

Also, one thing to watch out for is the standard x5 mags are a little too long to fit the mag gauge

 

[tarosean]

maybe buy an extra slide for your VP9 and have it milled?

Options are pretty open if you want to scratch the new gun itch. Most makers are now have guns to mount a RDS from the factory. i.e. Springfield, Glock, S&W, Beretta, Sig and many more.

I shot CO when it was first made available.. I found out real quick that I had to commit 100% to that and nothing else in order to be competitive. Unfortunately, I still like other classes and wasn't wanting to do it at the time.

As for the RDS.. I prefer the smaller dot as the larger one will completely cover up some distance targets. Butttt the smaller one seems to bounce around the window more. +/- for each. you will have to decide.

RTS still has battery tray/connection issues so I wouldn't buy one for a slide mounted gun. Trijicon RMR (type 2) is also seeing some issues lately it will either work after the first shot or the emitter glass pops out.. They are still likely the best with the Delta Point a close second. Personally I like the DP's bigger window but own both.

If the vortex works for you try it. None of them will last forever mounted to a slide...

 

[TCharlie]

The Walther Q5 Match comes ready to mount an optic, with mounting plates to accommodate about any red dot. It's very accurate and has a great trigger right out of the box. Plus-6 mag extensions can give the 15 round mags 21 capacity and are USPSA legal. I have a 3MOA Vortex Venom mounted on mine and it works fine in both USPSA and IDPA.

CZ will be releasing a new version of their P10 series striker fired guns that feature milled slides. A full size version includes two 19 round mags. I have the original unmilled version of the P10C compact and it has a nice trigger out of the box and is more accurate than I am.

Also, CO in USPSA is like Production in that all guns are scored as Minor PF. Maximum magazine length is 141.25mm.

 

[Doublehelix]

UPDATE:

I purchased the SIG P320 X-Five last night on a great deal from Gander Outdoors. This is the second handgun I have purchased from them this year at prices well below any of the other locations I looked at. ($765) It comes with FOUR 21-round magazine from the factory, which is pretty cool.

The P320 X-Five is obviously built on the P320 model, but uses a different grip frame and several significant modifications. This is the same gun that Max Michel just used to win the 2018 National Championships in Carry Optics. I'm sure his "wasn't quite stock", but nonetheless, I feel it is a decent gun for what I want to do with it. I am pretty sure I am not going to be sponsored anytime soon by SIG, so I will have to perform any internal modifications myself. I am pretty sure I am going to go with the Gray Guns trigger kit, but they are on backorder right now, so I am on the wait list.

Not really in any big hurry anyway, but who wants to pass up on an opportunity to buy a new gun??? I am still loving my Limited Major Division, and can't imagine giving that up anytime soon, but I can slowly start learning to shoot the X-Five and get used to target acquisition and transitions with the red dot.

Differences between the X-Five and a standard P320 Include:

-Modified frame with different grip angle and grip texture
-A lightened slide
-Match 5" Bull Barrel
-Dawson Precision fiber optic sights
-The slide is pre-cut to accept an optic sight such as a red dot
-Straight trigger
-Weighted backstrap
-Undercut trigger guard and extended beaver tail
-Magwell.

I looked at buying a new slide for my VP9, but it was over $400 just for the slide, so I decided that was not the right route for me at this point. I can still keep the VP9 as my bedside weapon, and occasional range fun.

Here are a couple of cell phone pictures from last night when I brought her home. I won't be able to shoot her for a week or two as I just had some minor hand surgery on Thursday. At some point, I will get out the "real camera" and take some better pictures..

 

[Jim Watson]

OH, NO!
When you put on the RDS, you won't have a cow witness rear sight, what will you DO?

 

[Doublehelix]

OH, NO!
When you put on the RDS, you won't have a cow witness rear sight, what will you DO?

I know, right???? Cheap plastic junk!!!

 

[ATLDave]

I like it. I have been getting passed in local matches by guys whom I used to beat pretty handily when they were shooting limited, but whose shooting dramatically improved going to CO. No doubt they are also working hard and practicing a lot, but for quite a few people, the switch to an optic really supercharges their shooting at both closer and longer targets. They seem to be able to be a lot less stressed dealing with partials and distant mini-poppers and such. They just seem to face a lot fewer shots that they know in advance will be "scary" ones. Not nearly to the same extent as PCC, but still a pretty dramatic difference. I suspect you'll have a really fun time figuring it out.

 

[Doublehelix]

I like it. I have been getting passed in local matches by guys whom I used to beat pretty handily when they were shooting limited, but whose shooting dramatically improved going to CO. No doubt they are also working hard and practicing a lot, but for quite a few people, the switch to an optic really supercharges their shooting at both closer and longer targets. They seem to be able to be a lot less stressed dealing with partials and distant mini-poppers and such. They just seem to face a lot fewer shots that they know in advance will be "scary" ones. Not nearly to the same extent as PCC, but still a pretty dramatic difference. I suspect you'll have a really fun time figuring it out.

Thanks. I feel like it is almost like cheating!!! I have a red dot on my .22 pistol, and although I have not practiced with it enough to be able to find the dot at speed, once I find it, it is pretty easy to shoot accurately.

It is going to be a change whenever I switch to CO getting used to Minor Scoring, but I guess I will have to keep telling myself that I am only competing against the other CO guys who are also shooting Minor. Just don't look at the Overall scores on Practiscore, and I will be OK!!!

 

[ATLDave]

The CW when CO first came out was that the dot would be no match for major scoring, and that LTD would have a big advantage over CO. I think the results are showing that CO is very competitive with LTD, and can have a clear advantage in some matches. Throw a lot of steel into the match, and the CO really shines. Lots of mid-range partials and the LTD maybe starts to get the upper hand.

 

[1KPerDay]

I like it. I have been getting passed in local matches by guys whom I used to beat pretty handily when they were shooting limited, but whose shooting dramatically improved going to CO. No doubt they are also working hard and practicing a lot, but for quite a few people, the switch to an optic really supercharges their shooting at both closer and longer targets. They seem to be able to be a lot less stressed dealing with partials and distant mini-poppers and such. They just seem to face a lot fewer shots that they know in advance will be "scary" ones. Not nearly to the same extent as PCC, but still a pretty dramatic difference. I suspect you'll have a really fun time figuring it out.

Last IDPA match I shot CO for the first time and my SO who I've shot with a lot asked me... "you're really fast and accurate with your SSP-- why do you want to slow down and shoot a dot?"

I guess he was judging by the extra time it takes me to find the dot for the first shot. It feels slower maybe but I still placed 4th overall and first in CO, and well ahead of my SO. I think CO will become the go-to division pretty quickly, like TacOps in 3gun.

 

[Doublehelix]

Last IDPA match I shot CO for the first time and my SO who I've shot with a lot asked me... "you're really fast and accurate with your SSP-- why do you want to slow down and shoot a dot?"

I guess he was judging by the extra time it takes me to find the dot for the first shot. It feels slower maybe but I still placed 4th overall and first in CO, and well ahead of my SO. I think CO will become the go-to division pretty quickly, like TacOps in 3gun.

Like I said earlier, "It is almost like cheating". Imagine how fast you will be once you get the hang of picking up the dot. Crazy stuff!

 

[Jim Watson]

I dug out my old High Standard with Tasco tube type dot and took it to a Steel Challenge last weekend.
I wasn't very quick to the first plate because I was starting with my eye on the dot, not the plate. But accuracy and transitions were good.
I am not real fast and I have not studied the optimum moves for each stage, so to finish 9x12 in RFPO (Rim Fire Pistol Optic) was not bad, especially when it brought me in ahead of everybody in my usual Division of RFPI (Rim Fire Pistol Irons.)
Just think what I could do with more modern gear and shooting it all the time.

 

[RH45]

When Carry Optics started, I traded something for a C.O.R.E.
I've been shooting "open" guns since 2004, where the dot never leaves the scope, but, with the C.O.R.E. I would have to re-acquire the dot, and I really didn't like to be limited to 10 rounds in the magazine because a lot of ranges I shoot at are sand, and I'm lazy, and don't LIKE to clean mags, every time I drop them in the sand.
Well, after all of the reviews of the Xfive, I bought one, then, liked it enough to get a second one for a back-up. One is set up with a Tungsten guide rod for USPSA, the other has a Bruce Gray "fat rod" for IDPA.
I had some issues with the Sig, dot sights, and bought an adapter plate, from Springer Precision to put a Vortex Viper on, in case I had to, because I keep a couple of extras around, but, never did end up using it. I'm a little color blind, but, the newer Romeo 1s, with 6 MOA dot are the absolute brightest dot I've ever seen, and even being a little color blind, I don't have any trouble seeing the dot, on a bright, sunny day.
I am going to put the adapter plate, up for sale, because I don't believe I will ever use it.

 

[Doublehelix]

One is set up with a Tungsten guide rod for USPSA, the other has a Bruce Gray "fat rod" for IDPA.

What differences do you notice here? I have the GG Fat Rod, but see the tungsten one for sale as well ($$$$).

 

[RH45]

Tungsten is heavier which results in slightly reduced recoil

 

[Jim Watson]

But in dollars per degree of muzzle flip reduction, it is not very efficient.
I have a tungsten rod in my lightest 1911oid.
I also have a rod which is bare hand perceptibly heavier than steel, but weakly magnetic. I don't know what that could be.

 

[Doublehelix]

But in dollars per degree of muzzle flip reduction, it is not very efficient.

Yeah, this was my question really. I get the theory that the heavier guide rod should reduce muzzle flip with the heavier front end to the pistol, but when looking at the price difference, it had better be MUCH better to justify the cost differential!