USPSA Production versus Open for newbie needing optics?

[losangeles]

Sorry if this sounds like an outrageous question but this newbie needs to know. I'd like to do this USPSA thing and it sounds like Production class is the best starting point.

However, because of my poor eyesight, I need a red dot sight to shoot straight. (It's a long story: I'm near-sighted and wear glasses but when target shooting I don't wear glasses in order to see iron sights better -- but with a red dot sight I can wear my glasses and see both the sight and target like normal eyesights.)

The way I understand it, Open is the only class where you can have a red dot sight (am I wrong?). But OTOH, that's the class of the super shooters where newbies probably just get blown away.

If I shot Production, I wouldn't be able to shoot as good without a red dot. If I shot Open, I'd be at a disadvantage because I'd be in it just for the red dot, not to mention because of being a complete rookie?

Is this a common dilemma?

 

[losangeles]

To clarify, I can shoot reasonably well up to around 15 yards without a red dot. But beyond that, I really should use a red dot.

 

[HSMITH]

Shooters are 'classified' according to ability level in competition AND equipment used. In each division like Open and Production you can get a classification for your ability with that equipment. There are D, C, B, A, M, and GM classifications listed from lesser skilled to most skilled. D-class is an entry level class and you will probably start there whether you start in Open or Production. Limited is probably the most competitive division nationwide, and also holds some of the very best talent in the sport.


Shooters are good people and NO ONE at the local clubs here would think twice about a new shooter using one gun or another as long as the gun was safe and the shooter was safe. Please don't let the fact that there are much better shooters than you at the match stop you from coming out and giving it a try. All but about 3 or 4 USPSA shooters in the world can count on being beaten on any given day by someone.

How 'bad' do you shoot iron sights at 20 yards? 25? At club shoots around here you don't see much beyond 25 yards and even then there aren't a lot of targets. If you can shoot a 4" pattern at 25 yards with open sights that really is all you need to be competitive, but lots of shooters can't and still enjoy the matches.

Lots of shooters have gone to open guns for poor vision reasons, it isn't unusual at all.

Don't worry about the ability of the shooters in any division, no matter what someone will clean your clock until you have been shooting for a while.
Get out and give it a try!!!!

 

[ChristopherG]

LA, assuming you already have a gun that will qualify for production, I'd recommend you try a match with that gun and open sights for your first time out, at least. The open guns are also known as 'race guns', and have not only optics but compensators and 28 or 29 round mags. The guys shooting these things fairly sprint around the course of fire hosing targets as they go.

The pace of production--shooting a nice 9mm glock or what-have-you, ten rounds at a time, is going to be a much gentler introdution for a first time action-pistol shooter. Don't worry about being competitive; on your first trip out, you're not going to be competitive regardless of what division you shoot. If you can shoot SAFELY with open sights, take it out (and take at least 4 mags on your belt) and begin to get a feel for the game. There, you can see what's really going on in the various divisions before you commit to any certain mode of equipment (such as a holster that you'd probably have to buy specially to hold a gun with a dot on it).

What gun are you planning to shoot?

 

[bofe954]

You'll most likely get blown away regardless of the division you shoot in.

It will take $2000-$3000 worth of equiptment to get blown away in open and you can get blown away in production for $400-$600, maybe less depending on what you have already.

I can't think of a whole lot of uses for an open gun but shooting USPSA open division. You probably already own a gun you could use for production.

 

[losangeles]

What gun are you planning to shoot?

Glock 17 or CZ 75 B 9mm.

If you can shoot a 4" pattern at 25 yards with open sights that really is all you need to be competitive, but lots of shooters can't and still enjoy the matches.

That's good to hear. I can do 4" at 25 yards without my dot sight. Open sights just isn't comfortable because the targets (and anything at 25 yards I might want to look at) don't have crisp visibility.

I'm toying with the idea of a Lasik eye surgery that'll make all this a non-issue, but that's a whole other story.

 

[Chris Rhines]

If you already have Production gear, shoot that first.

That said, you will probably improve faster shooting Open than in any other division.

You can get a complete used Open gun for under $2000 if you shop around.

- Chris

 

[Ankeny]

Consistently being able to shoot a 4 inch group at 25 yards is more than accurate enough to win the Nationals. I kid you not.

 

[Tim Burke]

I certainly believe that... but how fast do you need to be able to shoot that 4" group?

 

[HSMITH]

Tim, I don't have anywhere close to the experience Ankeny does.....

From what I see: if you can get off two shots per second at 25 yards and keep those within a 4" radius of the center (8" 'group') that will put you at or near the top of club level shooters for speed and accuracy at distance. There is a lot more to it than just two shots on one target, but warp 9 speed isn't what will win the day at longer ranges.

I have watched enough videos of the best shooters in the world that I KNOW they slow down a lot too and drop two shots in the A zone. The speed they shoot nearly every target they see is at the speed at which they KNOW they can shoot A's, and that is at any and every distance.

LA, sounds like you are your harshest critic on accuracy. Get out there and give it a try.

 

[lycanthrope]

Losangeles,

Have you tried some of the larger fiber optic front sights?

 

[Jim Watson]

Shooting optics: You cannot focus clearly on both the sights and the target. You must see iron sights clearly for decent alignment, so the target just has to blur to some extent. If this is what you get without your Rx glasses, you are about as well off as if you were 20-20. [Be sure to wear SOME sort of glasses for eye protection. Hot brass can eject in almost any direction and spatter off of steel targets is a hazard for several yards, many yards if the plates are beat up.]

If you get serious you can work with an optometrist and buy shooting glasses optimized for your stance. They should allow sharp focus on the front sight, let the rear sight blur a little, and let the target blur however much it has to.

If you can group 4" at 25 yards you are doing better than most of the middle class shooters out there. The NRA ten ring is 3.39", the IPSC A-zone is 6x8". Don't worry about it, go shooting.

 

[richardschennberg]

Although only an average shooter (I am in C class in all divisions), I have shot in 6 or 7 national championships for the experience and for fun. I won 2 class prizes, 1st D Revolver and 2nd D Open. One shooter in central Kentucky won 1st D Open in the Kentucky State Championship.
You only need four (non-zero) classifiers to get your initial classification. Major Power Factor (gets you one more point out of the "A" zone) is now legal for 9mm but most guys are still shooting .38 Super. Check out the forums on BrianEnos.com.
Richard
Schennberg.com

 

[Flexmoney]

Glock 17 or CZ 75 B 9mm.



That's good to hear. I can do 4" at 25 yards without my dot sight.

Then you are good to go. That is plenty accurate.

Most shots are inside of 15y anyway.

 

[Ankeny]

Hi Flex.

I certainly believe that... but how fast do you need to be able to shoot that 4" group?

There is an old post by Rob Leatham on Brian Enos' web site about accuracy requirements in IPSC. Here it is:

I can't reliably shoot 3" or better groups at 25 yards. Not from a standing position. My gun and I combination surely can not. Probably wether rested or not. Maybe 30,000- 40,000 rounds ago that one may have been accurate enough to allow me to shoot that well, but not now, or last year before I retired it.

However, that gun and I can hit the head of the IDPA or IPSC target everytime at 25 yards so I don't think I really care if it is much more accurate than that. We all get a little to worried about how well the gun shoots instead of recognizing what the gun needs to do and then learning how to do that.

If you can hit a 6" head at 15 yards you are probably above average. If you can hit that same target at 25 yards you are WAAAAAAY above average! If you can shoot 3" groups on demand, you are God level, or maybe even as good as Brian.
Rob

 

[warth0g]

(gets you one more point out of the "A" zone)

Shootinig major will give you one more point for B-C-D, the A is always 5 points.

Major :
A: 5
B: 4
C: 4
D: 2

Minor:
A: 5
B: 3
C: 3
D: 1

Warth0g

 

[sturmruger]

If I were you I would start with the production gear. If you want to be competitive in Open it is going to take more cash then you will spend on your Lasik. I started in Production two years ago, and plan to keep shooting it for years to come.

 

[richardschennberg]

If I were you I would start with the production gear. If you want to be competitive in Open it is going to take more cash then you will spend on your Lasik. I started in Production two years ago, and plan to keep shooting it for years to come.

Production: expect to spend at least $300 on your gun and about another $100 on Gear.
Open: plan to spend $2,500 to $4000 on gun plus gear.

 

[Babalouie]

I'm a C class limited shooter and the eyes are what they use to be. Because my sights are pretty fuzzy I have a large blade style front sight painted red and my rear sight painted white just across the top. It lets me pick up on the sights really fast and works well for me. Get out there and shoot production to keep the cost down then try out someones limited or open rig. There must a dozen guys in my club that would hesitate to let me try there firearms. And that's one of the things that is really great about USPSA clubs. Very friendly, helpful and sport oriented. Go give it a try!