USPSA Production/Carry Optics

[ny32182]

I think the major scoring+capacity would vastly dominate over any advantage the dot might have on some shots.

I'm not an Open or dot guy, but also I think it has got to be a factor that on a real open gun, there is very little recoil, and the dot doesn't really move since there is no recoil+frame mounted dot. On a CO gun, it is on the slide, there is some recoil, so the dot is going to lift and track, and have to be reacquired between shots just like a front sight. Only advantage is that you don't have to change your focal plane as much, i.e. still target focused on all shots. And while that is certainly something on some shots, I expect it isn't nearly as good as it is on a real open gun.

At least that is my theory and I'm sticking to it.

But really, major vs. minor. that is probably the single biggest difference.

 

[ny32182]

I know my scores plummeted.

Going from limited to CO?

 

[tarosean]

Going from limited to Co

Yes, I normally shoot Limited Major.

 

[ny32182]

Makes sense to me.

 

[egd]

I know this thread is about carry optics, but a quick question. Have you guys seen many people shooting the pcc division. I sure hope it catches on as I just bought one.

 

[ATLDave]

One of the larger, monthly matches near Atlanta is run by one of the big proponents of PCC, and he was allowing it long before USPSA officially said anything about it. Seems like about a half dozen people shot it at one match. That match is coming up this weekend, and currently there are zero people signed up in it.

 

[egd]

Rats! I sure wish it would catch on. Oh well, I'll still have fun with mine.

 

[tarosean]

^Ive yet to see it.. buttt I have also not been able to shoot since Jan. which was before any rules came out.

I too have one that I assume will qualify and want to try the division out.

 

[waktasz]

I know this thread is about carry optics, but a quick question. Have you guys seen many people shooting the pcc division. I sure hope it catches on as I just bought one.

None of the 4 clubs within 90 minutes of me are going to allow it.

 

[Dudedog]

Quote:
You don't like L-10?
Obviously, everyone not competing in a "restricted" state???

Thinking about trying USPSA and since I am in Cal Limited 10 is a good place.

We are limited to 10rnd mags by the state....sigh.

 

[Hoser]

None of the 4 clubs within 90 minutes of me are going to allow it.

Why on earth would they not allow it?

 

[egd]

I guess the main way for it to get started is to keep asking about it at every shoot you sign up for. If enough people show interest in it maybe it will catch on.

 

[waktasz]

Why on earth would they not allow it?

Two of them have a "no long gun in the pistol pits policy". Another doesn't want to deal with the potential slow downs caused by them in his 125 shooter 10 stage monthly match, and other likely just thinks they are dumb.

 

[ATLDave]

We don't allow it at the small weekly match that I run. It's at an indoor range with close quarters, and it would be impossible for someone carrying a long gun not to sweep someone. Flagged or not, none of us want to look down the barrel of a gun that someone is holding. Once a month, we run a long-gun side match, but we make people carry the gun to and from the line bagged. It adds a bit of time. To do that for one or more shooters on every stage, every week... that's a lot of time.

 

[ny32182]

Not allowed at my local USPSA club because it is a pistol only range; nothing with a stock on it has ever been allowed.

 

[tarosean]

just posed the question, regarding PCC, to both the clubs I shoot at.

Will be interesting to see what they have to say given the ruckus that is online about it.

 

[ny32182]

Bottom line, it isn't going to mesh well into a pistol match and should be its own separate thing, or nothing at all.

 

[egd]

I think carrying it to the line bagged would be a fair option to assure safety. Wouldn't bother me at all. Although I have seen shooters with 22lr rifles at steel challenge matches and they weren't bagged and there was no problem.
I think it could be fine at a pistol match. We just need to get used to the idea is all. Think of it as a gun match instead. Or a shooting match.

 

[ATLDave]

I think carrying it to the line bagged would be a fair option to assure safety. Wouldn't bother me at all.

As I wrote above, that's what we do for our once-a-month rifle side match. But it adds quite a bit of time to the unload-and-show-clear-if-clear-holster process as compared to a pistol that can be holstered.

I think it could be fine at a pistol match. We just need to get used to the idea is all. Think of it as a gun match instead. Or a shooting match.

It could be, but it does tend to pose clubs with a problematic choice:

1. Trust that unloaded (or "unloaded") guns are harmless... Something completely rejected when it comes to pistols. Pull a pistol out of the holster before "make ready," and you're going home, even if the slide is locked back and it's totally, demonstrably empty. Why would we be more trusting of a long gun in-hand with an exposed trigger than a pistol?

(I will say I think this is slightly more problematic at an indoor match or other place where space is at a premium and sweeping others becomes inevitable, and perhaps less terrifying at a sparsely-attended match with large bays... just more safe-ish places to point the gun.)

OR

2. Do a lot of bagging and unbagging at the line. At a match where time is not at a premium, and an extra 30-45 seconds of bag-juggling at the line before and after the run is no big deal, this is a minor nuisance. For clubs that have fixed time constraints (range closes at X time), or that struggle to get shooters a reasonable ratio of shooting time to non-shooting time, this may not be acceptable.

 

[egd]

Yeah, the type of match and location can make it not feasible at times, but if there are not those restrictions I'd like to see it become more popular. To not allow it just because it's "not a pistol" or just because it's new or different would be my complaint. I'd just like to see it given a fair chance to succeed. If not enough people are interested, then so be it.
edit: I just thought about this. What about those colored gizmos (whatever they're called) that stick in the bolt area that show the gun is unloaded and are readily visible. Would requiring the use of them be better/easier than bagging?

 

[ATLDave]

Chamber flags? Not acceptible for the indoor matches. Not visible from all angles. That's what the rules currently require (or bagging), but I don't think they're OK in tight spaces.

 

[tarosean]

Bottom line, it isn't going to mesh well into a pistol match and should be its own separate thing, or nothing at all.

well aware of you and your cohorts on PPS feelings regarding it.

Not sure if I agree though... I would have to see first hand how it played out and how it effected or did not effect a match before coming to a conclusion.

2. Do a lot of bagging and unbagging at the line. At a match where time is not at a premium, and an extra 30-45 seconds of bag-juggling at the line before and after the run is no big deal, this is a minor nuisance.

Should we also disallow revolvers and hobbled up people that are slower? What about the Timmy that takes 50 sight pictures? The guy who wants to argue every perf shot. etc. etc.

I dont see the time aspect of it relevant as there are too many variables in a match.

Steel, Indoor matches, Ranges in populated areas, small bays are an issue though. Course I suppose thats why HQ is leaving it up to individual clubs to decide.

 

[ATLDave]

I dont see the time aspect of it relevant as there are too many variables in a match.

I'm guessing you've never been the match director or range master for a match where you have a fixed number of hours to complete the match! If you're trying to get 24 shooters through 3 stages in 2 hours flat (the majority of whom are C and D class), everything counts.

Course I suppose thats why HQ is leaving it up to individual clubs to decide.

Yeah, that's the only reason I'm not really annoyed at it. For places where it works, if people want to do it, I don't care. But it just doesn't in some places.

 

[egd]

I know there's more to that than I know, but why does one set up a match under such short time constraints. That seems more the clubs fault than the competitors.

 

[ny32182]

I think it could be fine at a pistol match. We just need to get used to the idea is all. Think of it as a gun match instead. Or a shooting match.

Absolutely not... a USPSA handgun match, is a PISTOL match. There is nothing overall positive that is going to come out of modifying or watering down the best pistol sport to make it "rifle-friendly".

PCC can either adapt without changing anything about the pistol match, or it can get out and go do 3G or whatever.

My concern is that despite the best intentions, MDs that let it in will start making subtle concessions to rifle shooters, and it will screw up a pistol sport. If somehow they can avoid doing that (which I don't see how it would be possible) then fine. Personally I'm fine with a flagged gun that is racked/carried muzzle up all the time. No reason you would have to sweep anyone.

well aware of you and your cohorts on PPS feelings regarding it.

Ah yes, someone has heard the longer winded version.

Another good point made by Ben is that the PCC shooting itself will be lame if you can't give it a full test with longer shots, etc, at the pistol match. Absolutely true if you are concerned with the overall brand of USPSA and the total product that is being put out. I hadn't really thought of that before since I have no plans to shoot it.