Well, I think they're trying to do several different things. I think they're trying to steal some IDPA thunder/members by allowing the most forward-thinking tacti-timmies to shoot what they carry. I think they're trying to appease a small-but-vocal number of members who have been agitating for this division for some time. I think they're trying to give the manufacturers of plastic guns that are falling from favor in other divisions a protected space. Etc. They're trying to satisfy multiple goals.
USPSA Production/Carry Optics
- Thread starter ATLDave
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Well, take it all with a grain of salt. The USPSA production nationals occurred over the weekend. Ben Stoeger won it using a Tanfoglio, but Robert Vogel and Nils Jonasson were both within 0.5% at second and third respectively, and they were shooting Glocks. Then there was some more Tanfoglio, then an XDm, then some CZs.
So if you are as good as Vogel or Nils, you can absolutely be competitive with plastic.
So if you are as good as Vogel or Nils, you can absolutely be competitive with plastic.
That leaves a pretty small wading pool. lol..
Course they, like Stoeger, will win regardless of what is in their hands. Dont recall all this weight bias when Ben was crushing with the Beretta 92. Which interestingly enough makes weight for the Carry Optics, but cannot be milled to accept one.
In addition, Vogel has been running that fake light to add weight on his glocks in Open and I believe limited.
Yes, the point re: Beretta has occurred to me as well. When you're among the 10 best shooters in the world, you're going to stomp tail with any gun that runs and is reasonably accurate.
It is interesting that Stoeger's formula recently has been to be VERY, VERY accurate. He shot 353 A's at nationals. Nils shot 333 and Vogel 323.
It is interesting that Stoeger's formula recently has been to be VERY, VERY accurate. He shot 353 A's at nationals. Nils shot 333 and Vogel 323.
^ Yeah I moved from a G35 to a CZ TacSport earlier this year. Yet I still managed to pick up 2 NS's on one stage at my last match.. Essentially bumping me from top 5ish overall.
Cannot blame the gun thou as its one of the most accurate guns I own. :banghead:
Cannot blame the gun thou as its one of the most accurate guns I own. :banghead:
One of the things I noticed in reviewing the stats of the high finishers at the Prod Nationals is that the great shooters just do NOT hit no-shoots. Based on the videos, there were white targets everywhere, and there were 20 stages... but the top guys hit 0-2 NS's for the entire match. They just don't blunder into that stuff, no matter how hard/tight the shot is. It's non-negotiable for them.
ny32182
Member
The cost difference between "Carry optics" and Open is going to be so vast that I doubt anyone will seriously be cross shopping the two.
The people who want to try carry optics would otherwise be shooting Production or Single stack. It is going to be much more similar to Production or SS in terms of cost, stage strategy/shooting experience, scoring, etc. The similarities with Open end at the red dot, and that's it... unfortunately since that was, until now, a feature unique to Open, everyone seems to feel the need to compare them, but it is a false comparison.
The people who want to try carry optics would otherwise be shooting Production or Single stack. It is going to be much more similar to Production or SS in terms of cost, stage strategy/shooting experience, scoring, etc. The similarities with Open end at the red dot, and that's it... unfortunately since that was, until now, a feature unique to Open, everyone seems to feel the need to compare them, but it is a false comparison.
Sure if your only thinking of a fully kitted 2011.
However, I can buy a SJC Open kit (Comp, Barrel, Frame Mount, Magwell, etc.) for one of my glocks with a C-More. Cheaper or close to the same amount than I can send my slide off to be milled, capped* and purchase a high end RDS as none of the new guns are NROI compliant yet. (Glock MOS, S&W PC, etc.)
*has to be capped to compete in other classes if you decide to remove RDS.
In addition, I say High end because slide ride is hard on the sights and even the high end ones fail as the round count continues to climb.. So you might be looking at replacing multiple RDS a season.
ny32182
Member
Since KC quit Glock, I personally don't think I've seen anyone even trying to make a Glock open gun run... and he couldn't do it with unlimited resources, so I don't think that will change in the future either.
I agree that people looking at Carry Optics will balk at needing to buy several optics every season, and I also expect that to happen for anyone practicing hard. That is why I don't see it as a division where top shooters are going to compete long term but I guess time will tell. I expect it will be populated by newer shooters who will either stay at a relatively low level, or move to a different division if they plan to put serious resources into getting better, but I guess time will tell. Personally I'd view a few hundred bucks a season on new optics as a waste of money that could be better used on other stuff in a different division.
I agree that people looking at Carry Optics will balk at needing to buy several optics every season, and I also expect that to happen for anyone practicing hard. That is why I don't see it as a division where top shooters are going to compete long term but I guess time will tell. I expect it will be populated by newer shooters who will either stay at a relatively low level, or move to a different division if they plan to put serious resources into getting better, but I guess time will tell. Personally I'd view a few hundred bucks a season on new optics as a waste of money that could be better used on other stuff in a different division.
Neither would I. (Just using it as an example)
Heck I gave up on my gen4 G35 Limited gun and was ready to go staple it to a target at the last match I used it.. LOL
Now its relegated to backup gun to hopefully never see the light of day again.
^ Yeah it would still fall under 21.2b of the rule book
21.2b Production
21.2b for Cary optics
If you want to shoot both divisions you need a gun that comes with a replaceable cap like a MOS, Core, etc. or have a cap built for your particular gun.
21.2b Production
21.2b for Cary optics
If you want to shoot both divisions you need a gun that comes with a replaceable cap like a MOS, Core, etc. or have a cap built for your particular gun.
ny32182
Member
They also upped the weight limit since the start of this thread, so you can get the metal frame guns into the division now.
Major matches this year I've been to have between zero and 5 people in the division. Not sure what happens if that continues for another year.
Major matches this year I've been to have between zero and 5 people in the division. Not sure what happens if that continues for another year.
and stipple to your hearts content...
I think you already know the answer to that question...
I've already bid sayonara to the division.. I shot a number of matches and felt like it would take too much away from my other shooting if I were to continue. So back to Limited I went.
ny32182
Member
Lim 10 and Revo have the same level of participation, yet they remain...
L-10 and Revo have also been around for a long time.
Time will tell if CO and PCC will last.
Time will tell if CO and PCC will last.
We've got one guy at my small weekly match that shoots CO exclusively. He's all in! He came to USPSA from IDPA just before they announced it, but he was still early in the game and hadn't committed to a bunch of gear for another division.
Haven't really seen anyone else playing with it, except for one other guy who was shooting "open" with a slide-riding dot on his Glock before the CO thing was announced... he left the state before CO was created, but I assume he's still doing the same thing, but now in a division where he's not handicapped competitive.
What I don't have is a sense of whether the advantages of a dot make it competitive heads-up with Limited (capacity and major versus a dot). I know that doesn't mean anything officially in USPSA, but at smaller matches, inter-division competition can be interesting.
Haven't really seen anyone else playing with it, except for one other guy who was shooting "open" with a slide-riding dot on his Glock before the CO thing was announced... he left the state before CO was created, but I assume he's still doing the same thing, but now in a division where he's not handicapped competitive.
What I don't have is a sense of whether the advantages of a dot make it competitive heads-up with Limited (capacity and major versus a dot). I know that doesn't mean anything officially in USPSA, but at smaller matches, inter-division competition can be interesting.
ny32182
Member
I guarantee CO has no chance of being competitive against Limited in combined results with equal shooters.
I know my scores plummeted. While it was a different system than I am currently shooting in Limited... It was a system I am used to and started shooting USPSA with it, and still remain proficient. (Glock)
It felt like I was having to wait on the optic to return to battery before I could fire again. I even went with 6lb under stock recoil spring to try and speed it up, which did help. The dot wasnt bouncing and I never had to do the looky lew to find it. However, It did fade away from direct sunlight at one match resulting and 6 mikes. As you can imagine that match was a failure... lol
I only had one match where one other person showed up for competition, and he was new.
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