VA Lobby Day Rally - Live Team Feed

[Sistema1927]

The "constitutional militia" (for 2nd Amendment purposes) is essentially everybody. A self-selected subset is not "the militia." It's settled law that self-organized paramilitary groups can be outlawed. Whatever else we can say about those that showed up armed on Monday, they have no legal standing as representatives of anybody.

Whatever.

You know what I meant, but decided to twist it to your agenda. I said nothing about representatives, or legal standing, or paramilitary.

Do you ever come down on the right side of any issue?

The militia showed up at Richmond.

 

[AlexanderA]

VA is staggered, executive officers such as the governor are elected in two years (2021) and the state legislature has a four year term until 2023.

Not exactly. The governor serves a single 4-year term. Northam was elected in 2017, and he cannot succeed himself in 2021. However, there is nothing to prevent a former governor, such as Terry McAuliffe, from running again.

Regarding the legislature, the Senate has a 4-year term (elections in 2019, 2023, etc.), but the House of Delegates is elected every 2 years. They're up in 2021, along with the governor.

 

[AlexanderA]

You know what I meant, but decided to twist it to your agenda.

My "agenda" has always been that the Militia Clause of the 2nd Amendment should be given due weight, and that therefore the militia -- broadly defined as "we the people" -- should be as well armed as the standing army. I suppose that makes me more of a 2nd Amendment absolutist than most RKBA proponents.

"10 U.S. Code § 246.Militia: composition and classes
(a)The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b)The classes of the militia are—
(1)the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2)the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."

So, unless you're female and not in the national guard and so long as you are in the proper age range, you are in the unorganized militia.

That's the current statutory definition of the militia. That's irrelevant to an originalist interpretation of the Constitution. In 1791, when the 2nd Amendment was adopted, the militia had a far more universal definition than that. In fact we have writings of the Founding Fathers that say that the militia is practically everybody other than certain public officials. (And of course now we would have to include women, blacks, etc., who were excluded back then.)

However, the key characteristic of this "constitutional militia" is its universality. The minute you self-select a portion of this "constitutional militia," you lose its inherent constitutional protections. Therefore, under my theory, I have a right to own a machine gun as an individual. I don't have a right to parade with a machine gun as a member of a self-organized group (unless that group includes the entire community).

It is not settled law because the situation in Virginia has important 1st Amendment rights tied to it namely free speech, right to assemble peaceably, and freedom of association. Give me concrete examples, and I can give you case law citations where such a group may have government sanctions against it but the government does not have a broad based right to ban an organization engaged in lawful practices even it their activities "scare the horses." Gitlow, Schenk, Debs, and Whitney, are not regarded as good law anymore with a number of cases post war undermining their rationale. Same way as the Smith Act has been undermined. Effectively, the court has limited the "clear and present danger" by requiring actual imminent illegal activities proposed via speech plus concrete actions to further the illegal scheme or activity.

I believe Presser v. Illinois (1886) is still good law (in regard to the legality of non-governmental militias). That's what I meant by "settled law."

 

[Sistema1927]

So, AlexanderA, with you it is everyone or no one. Unless everyone shows up with a weapon, then the militia isn't in play. If a subset of the militia gathers, then according to you, they don't exist as such.

Do you believe in unicorns as well? Your understanding of the militia makes it impossible to achieve, but maybe that is your desire.

 

[taliv]

arguing about who and what the militia is is a total waste of time.
arguing about whether it's legal is even worse for reasons that should be patently obvious.

beyond that, a right implies all activities necessary to exercise the right. a right to worship without a right to assemble or the freedom of speech isn't much of a right. a right to own guns, without the right to transport, buy, sell, repair, shoot, etc is no right at all.

that is part of what made the VA action so urgent, as bills have been put forth to outlaw training, assembling, etc.

the term militia may have too much baggage, or not. it doesn't matter to me. but clearly, groups of individuals have the right to assemble and train and exercise their right to free speech and protest as an organization.

 

[fireside44]

I suppose that makes me more of a 2nd Amendment absolutist than most RKBA proponents.

I agree with that interpretation of it as well but your suggested actions for the rally don't really square with this. You will never convince people of that without making AR15s part of everyday attire.

 

[LiveLife]

And if gun owners participate in visible charity/public works like cleaning efforts

I shoot at several BLM shooting spots "designated" for shooting (You know, the areas with dirt berms and hills as backstops with targets and spent casings all around) and most shooters do a good job of keeping these areas clean.

Since I reload, I usually pick up brass from the ground to reload for me and "Pay It Forward" brass to others calibers I don't reload with steel/aluminum cases going to trash/recycling.

From time to time, I will pick a shooting day to do some cleaning of trash and even bought Unger grabbers that can pick up spent 22LR cases - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000V0AGS/ref=psdc_3776931_t3_B001B13PC2?th=1

One day, I saw someone pick up spent shotgun hulls and asked if he reloaded shotgun rounds. He said no and was just picking up trash as when I looked around, I guess someone had a heyday of shooting shotgun as ground was completely covered. So I started picking up shotgun hulls along with other trash. One by one, as other cars drove by and saw us picking up trash/shotgun hulls, they all pulled over and started picking up trash/shotgun hulls without saying a word. Soon, we had a large group of people working and in about 40 minutes, we had the entire area clean.

We all shook hands and found they were all shooters from the area. Good folks.

Last week, a young park ranger cautiously approached me while I was doing 22LR ammunition comparison for 50 yard groups from the tailgate of my truck - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...lector-3-break-in.859106/page-2#post-11351163

At first he nervously told me about no trash dumping but I quickly told him to relax and showed him my truck bed that bunch of stuff he saw was actually trash picked up from the shooting area. When he saw the trash in the truck bed of shot up targets and empty cardboard ammo boxes, etc., he immediately beamed and we talked about guns and reloading. When I told him since I reload, I usually pick up all the spent brass (Mind you, most are factory new brass once-fired), he was particularly happy and actually thanked me for picking up brass (I guess he didn't reload).

This goes to show unless gun owners engage the public and our government (whether they are law makers or government workers), they won't know who we are and what we stand for. (I should know as I retired from state government work after 25 years).

People that stopped to help me pick up trash ranged from hippie type to bearded biker type yet they were all friendly and responsible gun owners. But until you talk to them, one would not know that. My deceased mother-in-law was a Harley riding Irish-Cherokee who wore leathers all of her life. But she was a friendly generous woman who worked as a substance abuse counselor for the Canyon in Malibu (You know, the one where Hollywood VIPs go) and you wouldn't suspect such based on her outward appearance at first.

And for the park ranger, until he learned who I was, he could have perceived me as just another grumpy old guy wearing camo boonie hat who dumps trash on public land.

This is why we need to engage the public/media, especially social media, to show the world that gun owners, even camo/BDU wearing gun owners are friendly, fun loving, law abiding and responsible people, just like them.

 

[AlexanderA]

I agree with that interpretation of it as well but your suggested actions for the rally don't really square with this. You will never convince people of that without making AR15s part of everyday attire.

It's the public relations game. The rally would have had more success with lots and lots of people wearing orange "Guns Save Lives" stickers but no visible guns. (That's totally separate from constitutional theories. This is practical politics.)

 

[boom boom]

My "agenda" has always been that the Militia Clause of the 2nd Amendment should be given due weight, and that therefore the militia -- broadly defined as "we the people" -- should be as well armed as the standing army. I suppose that makes me more of a 2nd Amendment absolutist than most RKBA proponents.

That's the current statutory definition of the militia. That's irrelevant to an originalist interpretation of the Constitution. In 1791, when the 2nd Amendment was adopted, the militia had a far more universal definition than that. In fact we have writings of the Founding Fathers that say that the militia is practically everybody other than certain public officials. (And of course now we would have to include women, blacks, etc., who were excluded back then.)

However, the key characteristic of this "constitutional militia" is its universality. The minute you self-select a portion of this "constitutional militia," you lose its inherent constitutional protections. Therefore, under my theory, I have a right to own a machine gun as an individual. I don't have a right to parade with a machine gun as a member of a self-organized group (unless that group includes the entire community).

I believe Presser v. Illinois (1886) is still good law (in regard to the legality of non-governmental militias). That's what I meant by "settled law."

MacDonald v. City of Chicago undercuts Presser's reasoning because MacDonald explicitly extended the 2A protections via 14th amendment incorporation to the states. Presser was following Cruikshank regarding the 2A as not being a fundamental right protected via the 14th as a precedent.

Cruikshank has not been formally overruled but has become disfavored precedent and an embarrassment to the Supreme Court regarding its subject matter and central holding. This decision threw out convictions under the U.S. civil rights laws of KKK supporters who were responsible for the Colfax Race Riot Massacre. The Court held that the private individuals charged with violating federal civil rights laws could not deprive African Americans of the right to peaceably assemble or to own firearms--only the state could. The court, in obiter dicta, furthermore claimed that the right to bear arms was not protected from state interference which is where Presser picked up this line of reasoning.

The closest modern day ruling regarding organizations being able to be prohibited would be Whitney v. California but post WWII decisions regarding the 1st Amendment have weakened its precedential value.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

(a)The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age

OH! So I lost my 2nd Amendment rights on my 46th birthday. Dang.

 

[bikerdoc]

@D.B. Cooper
Start Your own geezer brigade, like I did.
The guys with walkers provide suppressive fire , while the scooter guys use fire and maneuver to close,
Not really but we do fantasize about what hard chargers we were back in the day while playing cards at the senior center!