What caliber carbine: 9mm VS .40s&w VS 10mm VS .45acp

[taliv]

if you want a 10mm carbine just so you can impress all your friends, then by all means, get a 10mm carbine, and we'll be duly impressed, because it is pretty cool.

however,

if you want a carbine to SHOOT, then get the 9mm or 45. i'm assuming anyone who has the money to shoot a 10mm carbine, would have already purchased both guns before asking

 

[Squidward]

Whatever happened to the widely spread rumor of a Glock Factory carbine. Someone needs to start that one again so I can get excited and let down once more.

 

[rangerruck]

the best are in 9mm , just look at the mp5.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Remember folks, in general, barrel length only helps if there is still burning powder to accellerate the bullet. Once the powder is burned up (all gas released), any "extra" barrel is just a source of friction & slows the bullet. Most pistol rounds have fast powders optimized for short barrels...but a big pistol-caliber case packed with slower powder can take advantage of some increase in barrel length. I read somewhere that anything over 11" or so didn't help with factory 10mm loads... Anyone else have any info on this?

HA HA HA! You're killing me where do you guys get this stuff.

FYI unless there's something wrong with yout ammo ALL of the powder is burned before the bullet even gets to the rifling. What drives a bullet down the barrel is the EXPANDING GASSES that are produced as a reslut of the combustion of the powder. IT would take a LONGGGGG barrel before you produced enough drag for the carbine to be slower than a handgun.

The biggest single factor in determining the velocity gain from a carbine VS handgun is the bore case ratio. In other words how much powder are you burnin relative to the hole the bullet is traveling down. Even when loaded with the fastest powders rounds like the .357 mag .44 or even .357 sig will gain impressive gains in velocity in a carbine. The oppisite it true with rounds like the .45 (gains nothing in a rifle) 9mm or even the 500S&W loaded with slow powders (yes I've tested this one) gain relitivly little in a rifle. Powder burnrate plays only a small role in the velocity gains

 

[greg531mi]

My twist on this subject, is why have a pistol caliber for a carbine?
There are great .30 rifle calibers out there, mainly the 7.62x39 and the 308.
Keep the pistol rounds for the pistol, if you want a carbine rifle, get a rifle caliber.
If you have close neighbors, like me, get a shotgun, with buckshot, for home defense....
I'm sorry, but I just think carbines with pistol calibers are inferior, in ballistic's and stopping power, compared to the 308,7.62x39, and even the 30-30!

 

[10-Ring]

I'm by far an expert in carbines, but I do play on in the web So, here goes...
From what I've heard & read, carbines function better calibered for heavier, hotter rounds and of the calibers you have listed, I'd think the 10mm would off you the functionality & accuracy you'll need to achieve a high level of performance.

 

[marklbucla]

I've got the 9mm, except it's the Oly PCR, not the K9.

I got it for the following reasons:

I've got other 9mms- stick with the same caliber.
9mm is the cheapest centerfire round.
Unmodified Sten mags are cheap, though you've gotta get yourself an expensive mag block.
It kicks the least.

9mm works just as well as the others for hitting steel and paper targets. Since my 870 does bedside duty, I have no need for anything bigger than a 9mm in my toys.

 

[marklbucla]

Silly me, but I forgot my GUNPORN!

Taken at the FOP Range in Alabama.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Different burn rates

Better get some rifle reloaders speaking about faster and slower powders here.
Must be a reason for all those speeds of burning that I keep reading about.

HQ

 

[possum]

i voted 9mm for the simple fact that the ammo is cheaper to shoot therefore more rds can be put down range while at the range,and more rds equals more 's for me. and after some practice you'll be able to put every rd in a fgew inch circle, and you want need the extra ft. lb's from the other rds. Plus it will be the easiest to control, and put multiple rds on target especially with some good practice!

 

[R.W.Dale]

Better get some rifle reloaders speaking about faster and slower powders here.
Must be a reason for all those speeds of burning that I keep reading about.

"rifle reloaders" Kinda like me

Yes there is a wide range of burnrates for smokless powders, But even with the slowest of them all of the powder is consumed in the first few inches worth of barrel. Thats why people who shoot handguns chambered for rifle cartriges still use rifle powders not handgun powders.

Think of it in automotive terms, During the power stroke on an engines cylinder the fuel isn't being burnt the entire time that the piston is travelling downward, But rather it's the expanding gasses that is generated when the air fuel mixture is ignited that drives the piston. All of the "burning is completed while the piston very close to TDC

Ammunition works bacically the same way The burning doesn't drive the bullet down the barrel but rather the PRESSURE generated by the high volume of gasses that were generated after the powder ignites

 

[taliv]

i'm not at all an expert on this, but i've heard unburned powder can build up in suppressors on short-barreled rifles. i couldn't quite make out what rslivers was saying in the very entertaining video he posted recently, but that might be an example of it.

in any case, why would we need flash suppressors if something wasn't still burning as it exited the barrel?

 

[R.W.Dale]

in any case, why would we need flash suppressors if something wasn't still burning as it exited the barrel?

Of course we all know that FIRE is the only source of light mankind has yet discovered

 

[jerkface11]

In the current issue of handloader Barsness has an article called "Much Ado About Nothing" which discusses among other things how long it takes a powder charge to burn. He sites Homer Powley as a source and says that 99.5% of the powder is burned right in front of the cartridge. With "right in front of" meaning an inch for a shotgun shell and 3 inches for a magnum rifle cartridge with a "slow" powder.

As for needing a flash suppressor it isn't because the powder is still burning. It's because the gas is HOT.

 

[taliv]

would be curious to hear what you guys think is responsible for the flame at the end of the can in this video

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=219303

rsilvers claims it's unburned powder building up in the can, unless i'm mistaken. i don't think "hot gasses" would cause a flame like that, but i could be wrong. it's more like a lit match.

 

[R.W.Dale]

unless i'm mistaken. i don't think "hot gasses" would cause a flame like that,

Why not? the flames on a camp fire are nothing more than hot gas coming from the combustion of the wood below.

Now you can end up with a situation where slow rifle powders do not ignite properly when the pressure required to fully combust the powder for whatever reason isn't there.

 

[Glockfan.45]

I chose the 10mm as its the most powerful load shown here. I never understood the point of a pistol caliber carbine. You have the bulk of a rifle without the power of a rirle round. Why not just get a rifle, or a pistol?

 

[marklbucla]

Because ammo is a fraction of the cost.

Not all firearms are tools. Some can just be toys.

 

[taliv]

Now you can end up with a situation where slow rifle powders do not ignite properly when the pressure required to fully combust the powder for whatever reason isn't there.

what could cause that lower pressure?

 

[R.W.Dale]

what could cause that lower pressure?

All sorts of things.

Using a powder too slow for the case volume bore ratio. Not using a magnum primer to light off heavy charges of slow powders. Undercharging cases and or using a load that is too weak. Not using a heavy crimp with certian handgun powders....
Just to name a few.

 

[jerkface11]

would be curious to hear what you guys think is responsible for the flame at the end of the can in this video

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=219303

rsilvers claims it's unburned powder building up in the can, unless i'm mistaken. i don't think "hot gasses" would cause a flame like that, but i could be wrong. it's more like a lit match.

Maybe oil or solvent built up in the suppressor i'm on dial up so i can't see the video though. Or sense it's a suppressor and it's main job is to slow down the gasses it's always possible that hot gasses were trapped in it and were slowly escaping.

 

[kieran]

I have often thought about making a 9mmX45, basically a 5.56 blown out to a straight case. Now that would be a hoot.

with a heavy, blunt bullet and a compressed load of h110/n110? yes please.

someone suggest it to Alexander Arms. get them to call it the 357 Beowulf

 

[ndh87]

i picked the 10mm just because it is a fairly powerful round that would provide plenty of knowck down out of a carbine platform. On the note of lever guns being carbines too, i'd have to go with my marlin 1894 SS chambered for .44 mag

 

[GigaBuist]

Why, oh why, can we not get a good carbine chambered in 7.62x25mm? That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun, and might be fairly useful, too.

I want one.

 

[warriorsociologist]

krochus,
I am not sure what you thought I meant, but my point was a longer barrel isn't always going to give you more velocity (given the same ammunition) as some seem to believe. If your powder is fully spent then there is no longer any gas pressure building up (and FWIW, "burning" = "combustion") Also, no, in all instances except for small cases with fast powders, the powder continues to burn in the ever-increasing (in size) chamber provided by the barrel/bullet seal as the bullet begins to accellerate and the case (usually expanded against that chamber at this time) to build what becomes the final pressure created before the bullet exits the barrel or some if bled off through a gas port. If you are using too fast or too little of a poder for a given bullet weight, caliber, composition, and barrel length, you will experience a peak pressure at a time that is "too early". 99.99% of folks could care less about this, but it is why some loads perform better (and yes, in extereme cases faster) from shorter barrels than longer barrels. This is also why it pays to work up oads specific to your gun / bullet choise (esp. when shooting wildcats or from custom tubes). I am sure someone with more time on there hands can post links to places you can read more on this - but most good reloading manuals have a section in the beginning explaining this basic process.

In short, if your powder is spent (e.g., no more pressure increase) and your bullet has not yet exited the barrel, the remaining major force affecting your bullet is friction. I agree with your basic "size of pressure chamber" analogy, but I think it's also plain to see that that was what I was getting at too. As a "fellow rifle reloader" I am fairly certain that you can agree that to achieve the most efficent match of bullet weight, composition, case capacity (to account for manuf. differences), powder charge & type, you do need to consider the action type (closed system or autoloader - esp. if gas-driven) and barrel length (and sometimes barrel characteristics such as rifling type / barrel material). Of course most of this will just provide theoretical maximums, but sometimes - esp when moving from short pistol-length barrels to longer (10-16+ inch) barrels, a basic application of physics helps.

PS, there is also such a think as starting a counter-point with a little decorum instead of
starting out with a written version of ---> " "