jcwit
member
One of the most popular deer rifles of all time Winchester 94 30-30 wasn't a min. of angle rifle but it shure took its share of game.
What do you consider acceptable accuracy in a factory rifle?
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Smith357
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For me a factory rifle should be sub MOA with hand loads, anything less and it's gone. Carbines should be sub 2 MOA with handloads.
jcwit
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Great answer smith357. Pretty much covers it.
R.W.Dale
Member
I'm left wondering how many of the MOA crowd are counting rifles that ONCE shot a sub 1" three shot group. Dollars to doughnuts most of those rifles would average closer to 2.5 to 3 MOA over the course of 5 to 10 groups.
Myself a rifle just has to be accurate enough to be interesting, this requirement varies depending on the model
Myself a rifle just has to be accurate enough to be interesting, this requirement varies depending on the model
Feanaro
Member
2MOA. Not the 2MOA where you cherry-pick a few three shot targets out of a stack, using the best handloads you've got, but a reasonably consistent 2MOA (with ten shot groups).
Bingo. For instance one of the FFL's that works for Gun Tests Magazine is a friend of mine. I have gotten a lot of good firearms from them over the years. About 3 or 4 years ago, they had a test on synthetic stock .270 rifles, much like the current issue. I bought two of them because I wanted to make a gift of one to a friend. A Winchester and a Savage. The Savage was a little more accurate than the Winchester but not quite MOA - according to the write up. I let my friend choose because I knew I could tweak both of them. He chose the Winchester because of the name (I did recommend the most accurate ammo for him and he still uses it) and I took the Savage.
A little bolt work, stoning the trigger (it was awful!) bedding and I am here to tell you 9 groups out of 10 will be sub MOA with factory ammo so yes I consider that a sub MOA rifle. I don't have to be a gunsmith to 'tweak' a rifle to get it's maximum potential realized.
It's the "can't handle the recoil" that has saved me the most money. Besides, I don't shoot men. Carlos Hatcock is considered one of if not THE finest rifle shot of his time. But I take with a large pile of salt his personal rifle would only shoot 2 MOA.
Perhaps when the war was over and it was finally turned in... but not as he carried it every day. He as a 1000 yard shooter and knew the realities of accuracy... a 2 MOA shooter does not allow you the variables to make a shot on an 18" torso at over a mile. I don't shoot men. I am a hunter. I am not particularly concerned if it will hit a silhouette at whatever distance. I want to know for a fact that it will hit that 'spot' on that animal at whatever distance I have to shoot at. A grapefruit sized target on a deer.... I need to be able to hit that within my capabilities. Hitting a deer at 300 yards doesn't take 1 MOA. Hitting his heart does. I don't take that length of shot unless there is no other choice, but I have. Elk at 500? You bet... I have a basketball sized spot.
Prairie dogs at 500? Darned sure better have a sub MOA rifle to hit those boot sized targets! Every AR I own is sub MOA. Coincidence? Not hardly. I own probably dozen +/- .22 rifles and I have built 9 of them on the 10/22 action. Every one of those will shoot 1/2" or less at 50 yards - with sporting ammo. Not $1 box ammo, but not $10 a box ammo either.
If your idea of accurate enough is 3" at 100 yards, then you probably will restrict your shooting at a range you know you can hit the target of your choice. If you believe 90% of people can't shoot MOA, that is your opinion, but I would venture a wager that that number is far, far smaller for the populace here on THR and on other 'gun sites' because we tend to be the gun nuts.
In my experience, real gun nuts are never satisfied with mediocre accuracy no matter what they are shooting. Just because an SD pistol is 'accurate enough' shooting 5" at 15 yards does not mean I would ever own one. If I can't make my SD arms shoot into 2" or less at 15 yards I don't own it long. The fact that my favored 1911's will do so at 25 with 100% reliability is even better.
So my point is, it is about perspective... what you consider accurate is based on what you shoot, where you shoot, how far you shoot and with what. A Mosin shooting 2" at 100? A 30-30 shooting 3". Great! I wouldn't own them.
That's just not my bag, baby!
RugerOldArmy
Member
It seems to me, most rifles become projects.
That said, 'acceptable accuracy' is always about half of the initial groups
'Tweaking is a bonding process between the rifle and the shooter
That said, 'acceptable accuracy' is always about half of the initial groups
'Tweaking is a bonding process between the rifle and the shooter
And that is the art of hunting, not shooting.
All these 500-1000 yard shots taken are testimony to an abysmal lack of hunting skill. There is no reason--ever--to take such a shot on a game animal. The wind and errors in range estimation make the inherent accuracy of the rifle irrelevant.
dagger dog
Member
Reyn,
it really depends on what you hunt doesn't it? if it's varmints at long range you got to have sub-moa. white tail deer in the thick cover 2moa will do. you have to have the moa or better for long range bean field deer or open country mulies.
so i really think it comes down to "our own" defintition of accuracy.
i have been lucky, 3 factory stock rifles 2 Savage 1 Ruger all shoot moa or smaller.
but with modern technology,the rifles available today from Quality manufactuers are the best they have ever been.
most modern hunting rifles, will respond to handcrafted ammo and reward the owner with the accuracy he needs. this is assuming that the owner treats the rifle with the respect it deserves and does the prep and maintainance.
then there is the macho belief, that the owner of the said rifle is the direct descendant of Davey Crockett himself. i don't know about yourself but in my circumstances of rifles not preforming well it's usually found out that it's the loose nut holding the stock.
have fun always
daggerdog
it really depends on what you hunt doesn't it? if it's varmints at long range you got to have sub-moa. white tail deer in the thick cover 2moa will do. you have to have the moa or better for long range bean field deer or open country mulies.
so i really think it comes down to "our own" defintition of accuracy.
i have been lucky, 3 factory stock rifles 2 Savage 1 Ruger all shoot moa or smaller.
but with modern technology,the rifles available today from Quality manufactuers are the best they have ever been.
most modern hunting rifles, will respond to handcrafted ammo and reward the owner with the accuracy he needs. this is assuming that the owner treats the rifle with the respect it deserves and does the prep and maintainance.
then there is the macho belief, that the owner of the said rifle is the direct descendant of Davey Crockett himself. i don't know about yourself but in my circumstances of rifles not preforming well it's usually found out that it's the loose nut holding the stock.
have fun always
daggerdog
U.S.SFC_RET
Member
Go to a gun show. You have two ears and one mouth, that means do twice the listening. I am not asking anyone to be nosy, just listen. You will find out what america wants MOA shooting rifles when they can't shoot MOA. What people can do is another matter in its entirety. I have been shooting for years in the Army and out. I was invited to go shooting at an M1 competition and got shamed shooting off hand. I realized I have a lot of work to do and have been doing it. Tons of unlearning and relearning. I have shot all of my life. I don't even sometimes know what it takes to consistantly shoot MOA. I don't shoot each and every day but I shoot alot.
To hear a high percentage of people anywhere except at the range talk about MOA. When it comes to the range it is a different world altogether. When it comes to real world situations its becomes another league in its own right and range shooting is left far in the dust. To me chasing accuracy has an extremely small niche in MY shooting sports. if you will. There are other facets to worry about.
IMHO don't consume your energy on accuracy, it gets there in time. You have to work at it. Americans want it now, everything now. Accuracy isn't coming now if you don't have the necessary skills to put it there.
You can benchrest all you want but it does no good except at the bench. Can you shoot off hand? I am willing to bet the majority can't hit a paper plate 2 out of 5 at a 100 yards.
If you even attempt it then you are steps above tons of others because they don't even try.
If you can hit a paper plate 5 out of five then try for a clay pidgeon 2 out of 3. I am not a great shot with a gun shooting but I can hit a clay pidgeon 1 to 2 out of 3 times, that's with a 30-06. On a really bad day I will miss all three. On a good day I will hit all three.
Take a pistol for instance. You know that a side arm was never meant for shooting for too long a distance. Why do I see people take too much time to aim? Learn to point and shoot the thing You will be surprized how accurate you can get.
To hear a high percentage of people anywhere except at the range talk about MOA. When it comes to the range it is a different world altogether. When it comes to real world situations its becomes another league in its own right and range shooting is left far in the dust. To me chasing accuracy has an extremely small niche in MY shooting sports. if you will. There are other facets to worry about.
IMHO don't consume your energy on accuracy, it gets there in time. You have to work at it. Americans want it now, everything now. Accuracy isn't coming now if you don't have the necessary skills to put it there.
You can benchrest all you want but it does no good except at the bench. Can you shoot off hand? I am willing to bet the majority can't hit a paper plate 2 out of 5 at a 100 yards.
If you even attempt it then you are steps above tons of others because they don't even try.
If you can hit a paper plate 5 out of five then try for a clay pidgeon 2 out of 3. I am not a great shot with a gun shooting but I can hit a clay pidgeon 1 to 2 out of 3 times, that's with a 30-06. On a really bad day I will miss all three. On a good day I will hit all three.
Take a pistol for instance. You know that a side arm was never meant for shooting for too long a distance. Why do I see people take too much time to aim? Learn to point and shoot the thing You will be surprized how accurate you can get.
I can't argue with one sentence there U.S., except to say that acceptable accuracy in a rifle and what people can actually shoot are two completely different subjects.
I would love to see a long thread (started by you maybe) about that subject. What do you do to improve your shooting skills? How often do you shoot? Do you have a mentor? Have you ever taken any classes to improve your skills? What drills do you undertake to get to where you want to be.
Like yourself I have been shamed more than once at my own shooting skills. I thought I was 'all that' and a bucket of hot wings until I started shooting at my range offhand. WTH????? I was one of those guys that would look through my scope and think... what is going on here?!?!? as it waved all over the place. Fit, weight and balance are SO important as is strength in the right muscles to get it there and keep it there.
Same with shooting a handgun. Taking SD classes I found out just how bad a shot I was left handed. Holy Cow did I need to learn some things!
Practice, practice, practice... AFTER you have developed some good habits is a heckuva lot easier than trying to overcome a lifetime of bad habits.
Hey... why don't you start that thread!?
I would love to see a long thread (started by you maybe) about that subject. What do you do to improve your shooting skills? How often do you shoot? Do you have a mentor? Have you ever taken any classes to improve your skills? What drills do you undertake to get to where you want to be.
Like yourself I have been shamed more than once at my own shooting skills. I thought I was 'all that' and a bucket of hot wings until I started shooting at my range offhand. WTH????? I was one of those guys that would look through my scope and think... what is going on here?!?!? as it waved all over the place. Fit, weight and balance are SO important as is strength in the right muscles to get it there and keep it there.
Same with shooting a handgun. Taking SD classes I found out just how bad a shot I was left handed.
Holy Cow did I need to learn some things!Practice, practice, practice... AFTER you have developed some good habits is a heckuva lot easier than trying to overcome a lifetime of bad habits.
Hey... why don't you start that thread!?
32winspl
Member
I have 2 favorite rifles; a 26" Rem 700 varmint synthetic in 22-250, and a Marlin 22" 1895 in .450 Marlin.
Stay with me a minute here...
with the Marlin (and a 2x7 leupold), I have twice shot a target at 100 yds that you could cover the first 3 rounds with a quarter... usually under 1 1/2" outside to outside...
The rem (with Leupold LR varmint) will do dimes or nickles all day long. No appreciable wind, and broad daylight.
IF, IF, and ONLY IF I (a smoker and coffee drinker) I am resting the forearm on 3 sandbags, and the butt on a single sandbag. BUT, standing on my hind legs, and no post or tree to "anchor" against, the VERY BEST I can do is about 3" with the Marlin and 2" with the Rem.
I have to agree with the guys that say "only accurate guns are interesting", even if I can only enjoy it from the benches at the range.
Stay with me a minute here...
with the Marlin (and a 2x7 leupold), I have twice shot a target at 100 yds that you could cover the first 3 rounds with a quarter... usually under 1 1/2" outside to outside...
The rem (with Leupold LR varmint) will do dimes or nickles all day long. No appreciable wind, and broad daylight.
IF, IF, and ONLY IF I (a smoker and coffee drinker) I am resting the forearm on 3 sandbags, and the butt on a single sandbag. BUT, standing on my hind legs, and no post or tree to "anchor" against, the VERY BEST I can do is about 3" with the Marlin and 2" with the Rem.
I have to agree with the guys that say "only accurate guns are interesting", even if I can only enjoy it from the benches at the range.
US SFC RET just about hit it on the nail on the head perfect.
I hunt western sage brush a lot with a 06', it is bone stock except for the glass and trigger, has shot groups you can cover with a quarter, I didn't measure em no need to just placed a quarter over it. Most groups I have shot with it were over the hood of a pickup cause I lived out and didn't wanna go to town to a range full of rules, noise and guys that had their too coool for school attitudes. Most of the hood groups are about 1 1/2 inches but that gun kills or has killed a boat load of game, if I miss it is me not the gun. Shooting .5 inch is fine off a bench but doesn't mean squat out in the brush except it makes it hard to blame misses on the gun. If you can't hit stuff off hand or unless you hunt from a stand with an included rest you should stay at the range or do some more practice till you can.
Shooting paper is OK nuttin wrong with it but it never was my thing and kinda boring for the most part, especially at only 100 yards. Unless you start gettng a considerable distance between you and the target. I like shooting stuff in the field not so much paper off a bench.
I guess what all this is getting at is that the OP ask about a "hunting or deer" gun and not a paper punch gun, and for that 1 1/2 is good enough unless you think you can hit one at 1/3 or a mile or more and then good luck off hand.
rant over
I hunt western sage brush a lot with a 06', it is bone stock except for the glass and trigger, has shot groups you can cover with a quarter, I didn't measure em no need to just placed a quarter over it. Most groups I have shot with it were over the hood of a pickup cause I lived out and didn't wanna go to town to a range full of rules, noise and guys that had their too coool for school attitudes. Most of the hood groups are about 1 1/2 inches but that gun kills or has killed a boat load of game, if I miss it is me not the gun. Shooting .5 inch is fine off a bench but doesn't mean squat out in the brush except it makes it hard to blame misses on the gun. If you can't hit stuff off hand or unless you hunt from a stand with an included rest you should stay at the range or do some more practice till you can.
Shooting paper is OK nuttin wrong with it but it never was my thing and kinda boring for the most part, especially at only 100 yards. Unless you start gettng a considerable distance between you and the target. I like shooting stuff in the field not so much paper off a bench.
I guess what all this is getting at is that the OP ask about a "hunting or deer" gun and not a paper punch gun, and for that 1 1/2 is good enough unless you think you can hit one at 1/3 or a mile or more and then good luck off hand.
rant over
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For any kind of big game, 2 MOA is more accuracy than you need. That equates to a 10" group at 500 yards and I'm with cp1969, in that if you're hunting big game at over 500 yards you're doing it all wrong.
Now if you're taking 300 yard shots at prairie dogs, then of course you need 1 MOA or better.
FWIW, I have a number of sub-moa rifles, (Rem LTR, CZ 452 Varmint, K31...), and they're great guns, but I also have a number of guns that shoot 3 MOA or less and within the proper range they're just as deadly as the tackdrivers. I also have a couple of rifles that just plain don't shoot worth squat and even they can be fun to play with from time to time. One of the guns on my wish list is a Brown Bess musket. Now, I don't think I've ever heard anybody use the words accurate and Brown Bess together, but I doubt that anyone would find one boring either.
Now if you're taking 300 yard shots at prairie dogs, then of course you need 1 MOA or better.
FWIW, I have a number of sub-moa rifles, (Rem LTR, CZ 452 Varmint, K31...), and they're great guns, but I also have a number of guns that shoot 3 MOA or less and within the proper range they're just as deadly as the tackdrivers. I also have a couple of rifles that just plain don't shoot worth squat and even they can be fun to play with from time to time. One of the guns on my wish list is a Brown Bess musket. Now, I don't think I've ever heard anybody use the words accurate and Brown Bess together, but I doubt that anyone would find one boring either.
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