What happens if we CC where we shouldn't? (accidentally)

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Smaug

Smaug

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I'm not talking about in courthouses and such.

I'm talking about if someone crossed a state line that hasn't got reciprocity and still has his CCW concealed.

Then, he's eating in a restaurant, a perp comes in to do a mass shooting or armed robbery, and our CCW comes out and puts him down?

Or if our CC guy is in a mall with a posted "no guns" sign but doesn't notice. Does he get asked to leave or is he arrested and charged with a felony?

I'm wondering if there's any consensus.

What got me thinking of it:

  • Greenwood, IN CC guy who stopped the mass shooter. IN is a constitutional carry state, but the mall had a "no guns" sign. I guess it is up to the mall on whether they want to press charges?
  • I read in another thread here about how a guy stopped a would-be shooter in a bar in Baltimore. He was CC-ing with his non-reciprocal VA CCL but did not draw his gun. He took down the bad guy with martial arts skills alone. When the police came, they asked "Where's the gun?" and our man said: "On my hip". Baltimore police then arrested him and pressed charges against him even though he likely saved at least one life. Guy might have to go to jail for 4+ years.
How are these situations so different that one guy will likely be fine and the other will likely go to jail and pay a $1k fine?

With all the limitations on where a person can carry, it's hard to do it effectively.

For example, in my state, I have a CCL and can carry most places. Not included are courts, schools. Bars are OK, as long as I'm not drinking. My workplace is a "gun-free zone" and if I were caught carrying, I'd be fired and my employer might take legal action against me.

I read one example where a Ford employee was in the parking lot after work and a colleague started beating him up. He drew his CCW and shot & killed his attacker. Ford fired him, (because it was a "gun-free zone" and they wanted to make him an example) and the city of Ford Heights arrested him and held him in jail until his lawyer started to set things straight. Still, that guy is screwed and all he did was stop a guy from beating him to death. He would have gone to jail if not for the CCTV footage that corroborated his story, as "no one saw anything".
 
Both depend on the state...

CCW in a state with no reciprocity is illegal and you could be arrested if found out (even if that is because you saved your life or someone else's). I can certainly see some states ignoring it (especially after a self defense shooting), and others like NY, CA and MD will throw everything at you that they can as the case in Baltimore shows.

In the sign situation, it depends on the state. Even in MD, signs do not carry the weight of the law. If they don't carry the weight of law, the store, mall or wherever can only ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave, now you are breaking trespassing laws (at least here in MD, you would then be charged not just with trespassing, but according to the trainer, a police instructor as well, who taught our carry class, you would be charged with using a firearm in commission of a crime). Other states, the signs have the force of law. Now with Bruen, some of the anti states that have been forced to go shall-issue (like MD) are starting to hint at new restrictions (there is at least one proposal to make it a crime to carry, not just if a business is posted, but this proposal would make it a crime anywhere not posted to give you express permission to carry there).

Other prohibited places... obviously, anywhere expressly prohibited by state law, it would be illegal to carry.
 
Interesting discussion.

I've walked into mall stores without a guns prohibitive sign on the store entrances. Go out into the mall proper and there's this list of "No No's", wherein it contains a "No Weapons" sentence. I asked my DA friend if that little sentence conforms to the "Conspicuous" guns prohibitive sign. He was of the opinion it did not, but I may be asked to leave. Anyway, he said he would not prosecute under those conditions, but another DA may.

Vague laws. They are hazardous.
 
Smaug said:
I'm wondering if there's any consensus.
Click to expand...
There's probably consensus, but not one single, legal answer.

The various States all differ. In some, a sign, any sign, carries full force of the law. In others, the signage has to be exact and specific, and the signage only defines a trespass.

In the mall shooting, the mall can't "press charges"--they can ban the shooter from re-entering under trespass law, but the mall has no ability to "charge: people.

As to consensus, the "gun community" is as fractured as any other. Pick a position and you'll find someone to gainsay it; or decry it as insufficient. People are people.
 
It depends.

Is it illegal to do what you did, or just against a policy not bearing the force of law?

What were the circumstances in which you were discovered?

What was your attitude when you were found out?

What is the political climate like with regard to guns and concealed carry in the jurisdiction you were found out in?
 
chaim said:
Both depend on the state
Click to expand...

Pretty much. Some states regard it as more of a suggestion or preference of the property/business owner. My understanding is that in some states, those signs make it non-permissive where violation is criminal. Local LE here seem to be just as confused...some have said it's not arrestable unless the violator has been trespassed and refuses to leave, some have said charges can be pressed by management just like shoplifting. Mixed bag from deputies in the same county.
 
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CapnMac said:
The various States all differ. In some, a sign, any sign, carries full force of the law. In others, the signage has to be exact and specific, and the signage only defines a trespass.
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So very true. Here in Missouri the no weapons signs must be a certain size and the letters must also be a certain size. If a sign does not meet the legal requirements then it can legally be ignored. I ignore the signs at one mall that I must go to twice a year since they are not the legal size.

Also here in Missouri, if you refuse to leave when asked then it is a misdemeanor trespassing charge.
 
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12Bravo20 said:
So very true. Here in Missouri the no weapons signs must be a certain size and the letters must also be a certain size. If a sign does not meet the legal requirements then it can legally be ignored. I ignore the signs at one mall that I must go to twice a year since they are not the legal size.

Also here in Missouri, if you refuse to leave when asked then it is a misdemeanor trespassing charge.
Click to expand...

Yes and no.

Law enforcement in Missouri.

It is only illegal to enter .gov offices where posted. This can be fed, state or local and they are not all the same. The county court house in this county may have a sign, but that county over there may not It goes into the 10th A. another one that should get more attn, but sadly does not. ALL the signs on businesses do not carry any weight no matter the size. You are correct if you are asked to leave you must leave. But again this is true if you are not armed as well. It is only trespass if you refuse to leave, nothing more even if posted. If you leave no law has been broken.

Not "good" to say you "ignore" the signs, as it can show.......

Well I will just leave it there.
 
I have found myself in this situation several times. My moa is to act normally and continue about my business at hand. If confronted: (which I never have been by anyone)
* I plan to admit that I didn't see the signs. Leave
* say very little
* not carry anywhere I'm not legal.
 
Depends on the state. In PA if you violate a no gun sign and you are discovered you can be asked to leave. If you refuse you can be trespassed. No gun charges.
 
Remington1911 said:
Yes and no.

Law enforcement in Missouri.

It is only illegal to enter .gov offices where posted. This can be fed, state or local and they are not all the same. The county court house in this county may have a sign, but that county over there may not It goes into the 10th A. another one that should get more attn, but sadly does not. ALL the signs on businesses do not carry any weight no matter the size. You are correct if you are asked to leave you must leave. But again this is true if you are not armed as well. It is only trespass if you refuse to leave, nothing more even if posted. If you leave no law has been broken.

Not "good" to say you "ignore" the signs, as it can show.......

Well I will just leave it there.
Click to expand...

The original question was about private establishments. So what I stated is the law only when concerning businesses and such. And yes I should have gone into greater detail. But as it stands, you CAN ignore a "no weapons" sign on private property if it does NOT meet the legal requirements.

Places that are totally off limits to CCW per state and federal laws such as all government buildings (local, state, and federal), hospitals, stadiums, etc, are different. One can NOT ignore signs on places that are off limits per law.

Schools are a different story too. With a permit, you can have a weapon in your vehicle on school property as long as it is concealed and not brandished. You can not do so without a CCW permit, unless things have changed recently. One thing about schools is that one can actually carry into a school with permission of the school board.

Bars are another area where the laws have changed over the years. It use to be that 51% or more of the sales had to be from food before you could carry. The 51% rule has changed. Now it is basically okay as long as you do NOT consume any alcohol. I am sure the laws will have to be changed again if recreational marijuana passes next month.

EDIT: The above is Missouri law. Check your state laws since they can be different,
 
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How can I find out how much weight the "no guns" signs carry in my state? (without wading through a lot of legalese)

How can I find out what the penalty is for carrying in a state with no reciprocity. I'm afraid to ask a cop for fear of being targeted/harassed/had license plate recorded.

12Bravo20 - You should clarify in that last post that is Missouri law; not necessarily the same everywhere. I recall the carrying on school property one is a lot more strict in WI. I don't even think it is allowed to have it in the car nor within some distance of the property. That is a really stupid one, as it essentially makes schools a target-rich environment for the crazies.
 
CCW insurance - you need to check your policy. Many will not cover an illegal act, so if you get arrested for a carry violation - don't automatically assume coverage. Whether they would cover the self-defense aspect of an incident, given you were illegally carrying is something you need to check.

The rational for a company is that they cannot offer coverage of an illegal action - states may forbid that.

Last, remember Bernhard Goetz in the NY subway. He was cleared by reason of SD for the ambiguous to many shooting of the 4 young men. However, the jury convicted him of the gun carrying charge as it was clearly illegal and Goetz knew it.
 
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Smaug said:
How can I find out how much weight the "no guns" signs carry in my state? (without wading through a lot of legalese)
Click to expand...

That is your responsibility to know the laws.

When I did my CHL the "legalese" was the class. My States laws have changed greatly since then, but I must still keep up.
 
It depends on the state. In NC a "no guns" sign has the force of law, even if it is written on a piece of cardboard with a crayon. In Fl., it doesn't. As far as using it defensively in a place where you should not have it, I would think that the person carrying the gun might be charged with violation of that carry law, which I would hope would not have so much bearing on the self defense plea. In Fl., I can carry a pistol in a bar as long as I am sitting at a table and not the bar. In NC I am required to tell a police officer at "first contact" that I am armed- but not in Fl. In Tn (when I lived there) it was (is?) illegal to carry my gun concealed even though I had a state issued permit into any establishment that sold alcohol, period. So if I went to the wal mart or the food lion or even a convenience store to buy random merchandise it was illegal just because beer was for sale there, even if I wasn't buying any and went nowhere near where it was kept. So many laws in so many places, it definitely pays to know the rules of the game before you start to play.
 
The USCCA has this free, interactive reciprocity map. It might help someone. Here's the map:
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/

I noticed that I have reciprocity in TN and KY, where I travel once in awhile. I'll have to look up the limitations before I go there again. IN is carry-friendly; I drive through there now and again.

The bummer for me is that being in SE WI and having family in NE IL, I drive there a lot and have to be unarmed when outside the car, unless on property with permission from the owner.
 
Smaug said:
How can I find out how much weight the "no guns" signs carry in my state? (without wading through a lot of legalese)

How can I find out what the penalty is for carrying in a state with no reciprocity. I'm afraid to ask a cop for fear of being targeted/harassed/had license plate recorded.
Click to expand...

See the link below. They have pages for each state and things are written out pretty clearly. (Although there is some legalese involved.)

https://handgunlaw.us
 
Smaug said:
How can I find out how much weight the "no guns" signs carry in my state? (without wading through a lot of legalese)
Click to expand...

From the "horse's mouth" being preferred here in Legal, Ref: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/175/60
From 175.60 License to carry a concealed weapon (asterisks added)
(16)  Prohibited activity.
(a) Except as provided in par. (b), neither a licensee nor an out-of-state licensee may knowingly carry a concealed weapon, a weapon that is not concealed, or a firearm that is not a weapon in any of the following places:
1. Any portion of a building that is a police station, sheriff's office, state patrol station, or the office of a division of criminal investigation special agent of the department.
2. Any portion of a building that is a prison, jail, house of correction, or secured correctional facility.
3. The facility established under s. 46.055.*
4. The center established under s. 46.056.**
5. Any secured unit or secured portion of a mental health institute under s. 51.05, including a facility designated as the Maximum Security Facility at Mendota Mental Health Institute.
6. Any portion of a building that is a county, state, or federal courthouse.
7. Any portion of a building that is a municipal courtroom if court is in session.
8. A place beyond a security checkpoint in an airport.

(b) The prohibitions under par. (a) do not apply to any of the following:
1. A weapon in a vehicle driven or parked in a parking facility located in a building that is used as, or any portion of which is used as, a location under par. (a).
Click to expand...
_______________________________
* 46.055  Secure mental health facility for sexually violent persons.
** 46.056  Wisconsin Resource Center. (1)  The department shall establish the Wisconsin Resource Center on the grounds of the Winnebago Mental Health Institute near Oshkosh

Now, I'm not finding that WI has stated a specific way for private property owners to legally exclude CHL. This may require greater skill than I have to research. Curiously, none of the "concealed carry" websites offer anything, either. WI does say all "public" (as in government) buildings, and hospitals, and any place with a Class B or better liquor license. are "no go."

Texas does make this simpler as the size and location--and required language--is spelled out in 30.05, 30.06, and 30.07; that's not much help for WI, though.

How can I find out what the penalty is for carrying in a state with no reciprocity. I'm afraid to ask a cop for fear of being targeted/harassed/had license plate recorded.
Click to expand...
You'd have to select a State and dig through that State's Unlicensed Carry Laws.
In Texas, the reciprocity restriction would be that you must be 21 years old.
This site is reasonably interactive: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/wi-gun-laws/#recRestricted
If not offering any info on penalties.
 
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