What if you need to fire in a very crowded area?
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jimmyraythomason
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Time to transform into Chuck Norris or Jackie Chan.
jimmyraythomason
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Naw,definitely not Dirty Harry, the king of collateral damage. This calls for a surgical strike-up close and personal.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Good compromise.
rainbowbob
Member
My only "experience" is a F.A.T.S scenario in which the crazy SIL grabbed "my" son in front of her and drew a knife. My immediate reaction was to "shoot" her in the head - with my "son" directly down-range.
This all happened very quickly and without a conscious decision. I was very surprised at my reaction (and my lucky shot). Of course, I have no idea if I would - or could - do that in a real incident. But I think it illustrates the above comment.
At the point you must shoot - all else but making the shot becomes secondary to the problem. You probably won't have time to deliberate anything else.
Learn how to go hands on. At that close engagement distance, if property trained you are better of striking or disarming, than trying to get a draw and shot off. Again, obviously circumstanced dictate, but a good understanding of basic grapling/striking techniques can be used to your advantage in extreme close quarters, especially if there are bystanders around to help.
One small problem there, majority of CCW holders and gun owners do not have these skills. Those of us who show interest or my fellow USMC brethren and other military, law enforcement Americans do. But your average citizen does not. So without that training, which is more likely considering self defense tactics using only hand to hand is in the minority, it boils down to are you willing to take a risk of killing an innocent to save a lot of innocents. Six or twelve. I made the decision many times in Operation Vigilante Resolve as well as Operation Phantom Fury. It all depends on the circumstance.
YammyMonkey
Member
Why aren't you running hollowpoints in your gun?
Hush makes a very valid point with going hands-on. If you have the opportunity & skill to go hands on with someone, gain positional dominance & beat/stab/shoot the fight out of them then that may be the way to go. Opportunity is the key word there. If his back is to you & he's focused forward that's one thing. If you're 25 yards away, close to hard cover & closer to his line of sight that's another.
We give ourselves more options by training to fight with our firearms (long guns & handguns) knives & hands as well as maintaining our physical fitness (real fitness- the ability to moving heavy things, controling our own bodies & being able to go for long periods of time). If you are lacking in any of those- fix it. Especially the fitness one. We're all more likely to die of some general health issue related to poor fitness than in a gun fight.
JMusic
member
Yeah in crowds just a shove and move is usually all that is required. Then run down a back ally
Jim
Jim
Loyalist Dave
Member
One solution is to go to a knife, if you carry one (as has been pointed out). Perhaps one should train with one as well as training with the CCW firearm? The basic scenario was you are engaged by an assailant coming at you, no hostage situation such as grabbing your loved one, or you have an active-shooter in a crowd, and eventually you will be targeted...,
(Assume your right side is your strong side and main shooting hand, your CCW firearm on your right hip...)
Then why can't you hit the deck on your left side, draw and fire upward into the opponent while lying on that side, with your over-penetrating rounds continuing upward at an acute angle into the ceiling and/or over the heads of the bystanders behind your target?? It doesn't need to be as dramatic as Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon rolling around and firing at break neck speed. Wouldn't this work?
LD
(Assume your right side is your strong side and main shooting hand, your CCW firearm on your right hip...)
Then why can't you hit the deck on your left side, draw and fire upward into the opponent while lying on that side, with your over-penetrating rounds continuing upward at an acute angle into the ceiling and/or over the heads of the bystanders behind your target?? It doesn't need to be as dramatic as Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon rolling around and firing at break neck speed. Wouldn't this work?
LD
jrpeppers
Member
Anyone with official firearm and defensive tactics training knows you NEVER go hands on, much less get involved in a struggle, with a gun in your hand. I've had a little bit of related training and that's what I've always been taught.
YammyMonkey
Member
Is there a real reason behind this?
If you have a choice then leaving the gun in the holster is the way to go. If it's already out & for whatever reason you end up going hands on you need to have worked through that in some sort of realistic FOF training.
jrpeppers
Member
Yea, another scenario question:
Does any one know if CGisler's "preference" could come back to bite him, if he had to use his weapon?
Suppose, he witnesses an armed robbery down a small cut next to the movie theaters after catching the last show of the night. He hears, "Give me your purse or I'll blast you," and looks and sees a man with his back to him, a lady in front of him, and a gun in his hand.
Being the good citizen with a gun he is, he unholsters and orders the perp to drop the weapon (from behind the best cover he can find of course). Without hesitation the BG orientates his body, then weapon towards CGisler90, authorizing CG to do the world a favor. Unfortunately, the FMJs CG prefers to use over JHPs over-penetrated and struck the poor victim as well.
Now he's dealing with an involuntary manslaughter charge at best, right (reckless endangerment maybe?). Or, as a harder kick in the pants, say the vic didn't die. After recovering from her flesh wound in the hospital, instead of sending CG a thank you letter, or a MickeyD's gift certificate at least, she mails him a notice to appear in civil court so she can sue him for pain and suffering.
Mmmm....now I want McDonald's.
Does any one know if CGisler's "preference" could come back to bite him, if he had to use his weapon?
Suppose, he witnesses an armed robbery down a small cut next to the movie theaters after catching the last show of the night. He hears, "Give me your purse or I'll blast you," and looks and sees a man with his back to him, a lady in front of him, and a gun in his hand.
Being the good citizen with a gun he is, he unholsters and orders the perp to drop the weapon (from behind the best cover he can find of course). Without hesitation the BG orientates his body, then weapon towards CGisler90, authorizing CG to do the world a favor. Unfortunately, the FMJs CG prefers to use over JHPs over-penetrated and struck the poor victim as well.
Now he's dealing with an involuntary manslaughter charge at best, right (reckless endangerment maybe?). Or, as a harder kick in the pants, say the vic didn't die. After recovering from her flesh wound in the hospital, instead of sending CG a thank you letter, or a MickeyD's gift certificate at least, she mails him a notice to appear in civil court so she can sue him for pain and suffering.
Mmmm....now I want McDonald's.
Suing, not a concern of mine lol I got the cash to spare. As for over penetrating and hurting the vic in that scenario, it's a bit unlikely dontcha think? Wouldn't any normal human being after being mugged/raped/robbed/held at gun point drop to the ground or run away after the BG's attention is drawn away from them?
On a side note. I never said I DONT use hollows, I just prefer my super powered FMJ. lol
On a side note. I never said I DONT use hollows, I just prefer my super powered FMJ. lol
jrpeppers
Member
Well, I assure you, internal ballistics prove that the innocent in this scenario being struck by a round is not that obscure of a concept.Besides, I'm not sure I agree a robbery victim automatically drops like a rock because they are threatened with a gun and as fast as the suspect gets shot, running would not help. (I specifically did not say rape) Anyways, it's definitely not as unlikely as sneaking up on and tackling an active shooter, saving the day at a parade.
Congratulations on having a big piggy bank but I was asking others about the legal aspect of firing a weapon filled with FMJs.
Question from YammyMonkey:
Your answer:
Congratulations on having a big piggy bank but I was asking others about the legal aspect of firing a weapon filled with FMJs.
Question from YammyMonkey:
Your answer:
Seems logical to assume you didn't carry JHPs.
On the general side, there is a legal doctrine called "choice of least harm" or something on that line (forgive me dear attorneys and Mass Ayoob) that was discussed in a class I took recently. It has to do with just such situations where you have an active shooter, but your only shot may endanger others. In such cases, it is a value judgment for you and the jury as to the probability of more harm coming from the perp continuing to shoot or your shooting him and possibly others. If you decide the weight goes to making the shot, you take it. And see if the DA and 12 "peers" agree. Probably will come up in the civil suit.
Your use of non-hollow point or frangible cartridges carries with it two possible negative implications about you, either one of which could end up being used in court against you:
First, that you were ignorant and used a cartridge known for its penetration.
Second, that you knew ahead of time was going to over-penetrate, yet you used it anyway.
The first says you were ignorant, the second says you didn't care about collateral damage. Neither will speak well for you in civil court.
Very few police departments use FMJ ammo these days for their carry guns. One of the reasons stated is to limit damage caused by over-penetration and ricochets.
Even hollow points will over penetrate in many cases. Frangibles are less likely to, as are some others. If your aim is good, it will be enough to do the job.
But, then, I have only spent 30+ years in the business of shooting handguns and other weapons, and evaluating their performance.
Your use of non-hollow point or frangible cartridges carries with it two possible negative implications about you, either one of which could end up being used in court against you:
First, that you were ignorant and used a cartridge known for its penetration.
Second, that you knew ahead of time was going to over-penetrate, yet you used it anyway.
The first says you were ignorant, the second says you didn't care about collateral damage. Neither will speak well for you in civil court.
Very few police departments use FMJ ammo these days for their carry guns. One of the reasons stated is to limit damage caused by over-penetration and ricochets.
Even hollow points will over penetrate in many cases. Frangibles are less likely to, as are some others. If your aim is good, it will be enough to do the job.
But, then, I have only spent 30+ years in the business of shooting handguns and other weapons, and evaluating their performance.
I would never fire while in a crowd, I would go for my pocket knife instead. If you have a threat in a crowd that has a gun on you and you draw your gun and shoot him in the hip as some of you have mentioned, thats not a stop and he will likely return fire and so will you. Then you have yourself dead, the BG dead, and possible bystanders dead. I think you would have a better chance using a knife in the jugular or eye regions...
YammyMonkey
Member
That was part of what I was fishing for. The other part was the moral/emotional outcome of using something you know is very likely to increase harm to bystanders. If you have enough money for a civil suit you have enough money to buy good defensive ammo. Your attitude is, to keep with the THR rules, juvenile, reckess & absurd.:banghead:
But that's the same feeling I have about people who refuse to train & maintain a decent level of proficiency with their weapons because they can't suck it up & make a few sacrifices in other areas.
Both of those items speak to this scenario. Your gunfight might happen on a flat piece of dirt with two participants, solid backstops & no movement of the badguy. But I seriously doubt it.
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