What really is the effective range of an AK 47/AKM?

[Sunray]

"...I find this to be very low..." Hi. You ever seen or fired an AK? Sights are really crappy. Mind you, neither the AK or, its predecessor, the SKS, were ever intended to be accurate. Both were designed to be issued to illiterate conscripts who could be taught to use it as fast as possible. Accuracy and effectiveness were irrelevant.
Soviet doctrine was hordes of tanks and supporting PBI with artillery.
A typical taliban fighter grew up with an AK in his hands. A typical Russian/Chinese conscript did not. Nor did/do American or Canadian volunteers.
"...what the Army was teaching..." Lady friend of mine works at the Pentagon. Her job is to edit the papers, etc. written by senior officers. Bird colonels, with their Masters degrees in any subject, are barely able to form a sentence. And they're the ones who wrote those manuals.
Firearms training costs money and time military's do not get. No different, really, than police.
"...few college ROTC folks bothered to..." How many of 'em ever went to a range while in school? ROTC is a way of getting educated for free.

 

[Grunt]

So given that even rich nation states don’t train their shooters to high marksmanship skills, weapon inherent accuracy is traded off for other considerations.

Well, while that holds true for the Air Force and probably the army, one will NOT graduate from Marine boot camp without qualifying on the firing range that goes out to 500 meters. Go UQ on the range later on in your career or earn ****ty scores and it WILL effect your promotions!

 

[Slamfire]

So given that even rich nation states don’t train their shooters to high marksmanship skills, weapon inherent accuracy is traded off for other considerations.

Well, while that holds true for the Air Force and probably the army, one will NOT graduate from Marine boot camp without qualifying on the firing range that goes out to 500 meters. Go UQ on the range later on in your career or earn ****ty scores and it WILL effect your promotions!

God Bless the Marines! I am certain the Military Industrial Complex is infinitely frustrated with the Marines insistence that every Marine is a rifleman, and that the primary purpose of the Marine Corp is to kill the enemy.

Both the Army and Air Force know, the primary purpose of their services is major weapon system acquisitions.

Don't know that much about the Navy, I assume they only reason they exist, like the Army and Air Force, is to feed their contractor base.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

In my civilian experience at the range.... (Hats off to the guys and gals on here that served, Thank You!) At 150 yards +/- I routinely hit clay Targets (4" +/-) Thankfully, Clay targets dont shoot back!

But the heavy bullet and patterns seem to up at longer ranges...

I think it's true the "Minute of Man" theory of Russian designed rifles. THe fact is; I have good eyesight. WIth Iron sights, If I can see it, I can generally hit it. SO if I need an optic to see the target, or a spotting scope.... the AK is not the tool for the job.

My .02. An ak is as good as your eyesight, and a lot of fun, and a good handy rifle.

For my "Civilian" use I find 100-150 yards to be the maximum groundhog distance.

 

[CSC_Saint]

2000m from the hip, mind you the rounds were splashing around in a 50 m radius and probably only saw 3 or four hits without of an entire mag. Still impressive to do that with an AK at 2000 plus meters. I only know the range because he was just outside my mk19 max range of 2200m. But with terrain it was only gettin 2000m out.

I am well aware of the difference between max effective and maximum range, and have used both in actual combat engagements and have had both used against me. My point was that i believe the majority of people and fighting doctrines vastly underestimate the AKs capabilities based on poor accuracy on paper. If some old taliban fighter with a probably as old ak can engage an entire scout platoon effectively at ranges most consider in the realm of long range precision shooter, then i think we can give the AK a little more credit than a couple hundred yards

 

[jungle]

Many studies have been done over the years and the broad conclusion is that it is difficult to see and engage real life targets beyond 300 meters under realistic conditions, it matters not much what the rifle is capable of, the real issue is fleeting targets that are hard to see and they get smaller when shot at- I know I do.

The AK-47 has a 300 meter battle sight setting and the AK-74, which shoots flatter has a 400 meter battle sight setting.

Hit potential is increased with optics and training. Happy birthday Marines.

If you want to read more on the subject I suggest this excellent article:

http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA512331

 

[goon]

The Army qualifies to 300 yards... at least they did when I was in. Not as far as Marines. I have no idea what the other branches do.

The people in support may not be as familiar with their weapons, but combat arms people or people who are close to them are. I was a 12B, my weapon's name was Mary Kay, and I qualified expert. A Marine could have probably outshot me, but lots of Army infantrymen could have too. You see a whole spectrum in the Army, so it's hard to generalize about the level of training that the "average" soldier may have.

The limiting factor for the AK isn't the rudimentary sights or anything about the rifle itself as much as it's the ammo. With good ammo or reloads, many AK's would shoot better than they do with bargain basement ammo. I don't generally like the ergonomics of your average AK and I shoot the SKS much better, but the AK is entirely adequate for what it does.

 

[nathan]

AKs designed for close range combat. Vietnam Vets can attest to their effectiveness in thick triple jungle canopy.

 

[somerled]

It depends on how you define "effective". And then when you introduce the human element, some users are more effective at thinking and shooting than others. Then some are more effective at making themselves less of a target.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16#Range_and_accuracy

 

[HB]

I have shot my sks out to 300 yards. I was able to keep 10/10 shots on a 18x24" steel plate from a rest. This was years ago when I shot frequently but proved the rifles worth to me. I then decided to get a tech sight and some lapua ammo. At 100 yards it holds baseball sized groups. I think the limiting factor in the soviet weapons is ammo followed by sights. For what they are, they can be extremely effective in the right hands.



HB

 

[matchinson14]

Thanks for all the responses guys. Wow, lot of varying opinions here. I know there's a lot of factors: the quality of the AK variant, quality of ammo, quality of the shooter, etc. For me "accurate" means hitting a man sized target at least 60% of the time on semi auto for an AK. It sounds like the AK is pretty darn capable of this at 300m or so while kneeling well or rested on a bench firing at a moderate/slow pace. I think no matter what weapon system you're using you will undoubtedly see accuracy drop in combat vs. a range of course. It sounds liek 400m semi auto really is the max for acceptable hits on a man sized target. I'd consider hitting a man sized target say 40% of the time with an AK on semi at 400m to be perfectly acceptable. Yes I have handled an AK, just a cheap wasr 10/63 but for a wasr it was well put together. For my first time ever shooting a mid caaliber semi auto rifle, let alone an AK, I consider my 4 inch group at 100 yards pretty good then. I'm hoping to pick up an AK variant here in NYS (freaking NY safe act, don't get me started on it). I'll have to unfortunately cut the bayo lug and remove the pistol grip and move the trigger back. Instead of this I may just buy a hungarian AMM parts kit (AK 63) I found online cheap and wait for when I move out of NYS to assemble it. I'd hate to neuter an AK just to comply.

 

[goon]

See if you can find a stock Saiga - it's basically exactly what you describe needing to do to an AK to make it NY legal. Or if the SKS is legal in NY, you might consider it as an alternative. Also, is the Ruger Mini-30 still NY legal? It also fires the 7.62x39 round. It's not exactly what you want, but it sounds like you can't have what you want while you're in NY - maybe just get something you can sell when you leave.

 

[Prijador]

Crap, I came late to the party.

It's definitely worth doing your homework to get the quality that you want.
The quality varies enormously between different manufacturers, and over time.
Good sights/optic, good ammo, and good training/knowledge with give you plenty of accuracy. I own a Valmet and its accuracy exceeds my current level of training /ability.

Here is an interesting article:
(On the Times website, no less, I know...)

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/?_r=0

Obviously, at least one poster on this thread experienced rather better marksmanship from the Taliban. (Afghanistan: YMMV)

 

[henschman]

I took my WASR to an Appleseed full distance event several years ago and was consistently keeping hits on a prone human silhouette (the black part of an Army "D" target) at 400 yards from prone with a sling. It would keep under head-sized groups out to 200 yards. Yeah, the 400 yard target was a nice black target on a white background that wasn't shooting back. That was with me taking my time and concentrating on good fundamentals. Probably not how it would work out if someone was shooting back... but the more precision-oriented shooting isn't totally useless on the 2-way range. There are times when you have the drop on somebody and you are the one choosing when to set off the festivities.

 

[M1key]

I spotted for a fellow at the range a few weeks back. He was shooting a scoped AR in 7.62x39 with Tula or some such. He actually walked the rounds in and hit the plate once at 1000 yds. Peppered the ground all around it. Would have made the enemy a little bit nervous I would think. Maybe keep their heads down in case the guy got lucky. Is that effective?

Me, I practice actually hitting the ten inch plate at 200 yds. When I have it dialed in, I can hit it every time with my Saiga/red dot. Never bother with longer distances cuz I don't have a spotter and couldn't tell if I hit anything or not.

M

 

[fireside44]

I know I didn't buy one to shoot it 300 yards, lol. Yes, the sights are crude but they can be compensated for through practice. For me they aren't the limiting factor as much as the ergonomics of the gun. The warsaw length buttstock is just too short and I tend to lose my cheek weld after the shot and have to hunt for the rear sight. Since the stock is so short it strains my support arm too. A collapsible style that allows for the correct length of pull per the user makes a huge difference to me. Kinda like a fitted shotgun for shooting clays will improve your score immediately...

 

[JTHunter]

Back in the "pre-Clinton ban days" of the early '90's, I bought a Norinco National Match AK. This is the one with the slightly longer, heavier barrel and a milled receiver.

In testing this rifle using Russian mil-surp HPs, I built a padded wooden frame so that I could fire the rifle touching nothing but the trigger. After getting gun sighted in and on the paper at 100 yds., I centered the gun and carefully fire the 5 rds. in the magazine.

Only two were even on the paper.

I also have a .243 that I had set up for a 200 yard zero several years before. I would fire a single round, lay the gun on the sandbag, pull the next round out of the box and load and fire the gun.

Despite having my sight picture change with every shot, I put seven shots (6 in an arc w/ 1 flyer) in an area that I could cover with the palm of my hand. This was also with mixed-brand (at least 4) used brass that I had reloaded so there were slightly different CUP pressures. At the time I had reloaded this ammo, I had not learned about the different "web" in the brass OR that bullet weights could vary by as much as 2 grains in a single box of 100. Thanks to a co-worker that was a member of the Missouri Benchrest Club, I've learned to weigh every bullet and separate them if they vary by more than 1/2 grain.

"Live & Learn!"

 

[Justin]

In my experience, AKs are accurate on man-sized targets to a bit beyond 300 yards.

However, 7.62x39mm isn't as flat shooting as .223, so it's harder to make hits at longer distances.

I've also noticed that AKs have an annoying tendency to string shots vertically when they get hot.

 

[matchinson14]

Goon: there were a couple for sale at local gunshops I was saving up for. Unfortunately with the passing of the imprtation bans against Russia it appears all NY safe compliant AK's in NY were quickly snatched up. They were all sold out when I came back with no hope of being replaced until the ban is lifted.

 

[JohnKSa]

...the 'effective range' of a rifle shrinks considerably for the average soldier when they are taking incoming fire.

The 'effective range' of a soldier shrinks considerably when he is taking incoming fire.

The accuracy/effective range of a rifle is completely independent of incoming fire since rifles don't know when they're being shot at.

 

[goon]

If you're stuck in NY, you may have to settle for a Mini 30 or SKS (if you can find one).

 

[fotheringill]

I shot my AK last Wednesday. Between the trigger slap, original iron sights and 200 yards, measured, slow shooting off bags, I couldn't count on hitting within 1 1/2' of the target center.

Not my weapon of choice.

I would feel VERY confident on hitting a human target at 100 yards somewhere on his body. Rifle does rise when barrel gets hot and it gets really very hot.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

Now I know this topic has been beat to death but I'd like to hear some fresh opinions as well as input mine since I'm new here. I've heard many say that effective range of the AK is only 200m or so. I find this to be very low. The Russian Army placed Ak effective range to be 400m in semi auto and 300m in fully auto; both of these acceptable accuracy was minute of man (practical and acceptable to me too). Now I understand that these estimates were in a factory under slow firing non stressful conditions. It is my opinion that effective range under combat in semi auto would be around 300m, and full auto would be 200m. Do these seem like reasonable ranges to you guys? The only AKM I've ever handled was a well put together non canted relatively new Wasr 10/63 and that was only out to 100 yards. I pulled off about 4 inch groupings. Also, a friendof mine from Israel is in their defense force as a reserve. He was trained with an AKM and said that, contrary to what people see in the movies, they are instructed to only shoot at targets in semi auto mode with the AKM for any target beyond 200m. Makes sense to me. What do you guys think?

Don't trust what the Russians say about their hardware. They have consistently lied over the years about their weapons. Now the AK47 is a hellova platform and it's incredibly good at what it does. However, it is not accurate at long distance and it was never designed to be accurate at long distance.

Trying to go full auto and be accurate with an AK is, well, silly. Arguably, the only thing that makes an AR platform rifle better than an AK is that you can fire it on full auto and maintain a little bit of control. But even firing the 5.56 on full auto is not advisable, especially if you are actually aiming at something down range. IMHO Full auto is a desperation proceedure when you are in the spray a pray mode.

 

[goon]

IMHO Full auto is a desperation proceedure when you are in the spray a pray mode.

Full-auto or rapid semi-auto fire are great for overwhelming the enemy and convincing him that if he does anything other than get on the ground and make himself as small of a target as possible, he will certainly die. Then you can use that to maneuver and subdue/eliminate him or to break contact and escape. What some call "spray and pray" actually has a very valid tactical role in warfare.

But that's a whole other debate I guess.

 

[Dr.Rob]

100% agree with Justin. Since we do annual AK vs. AR matches we see a lot of AK pattern rifles 'fired in anger' on the range ie unsupported and challenging positions etc. The targets are always moved in closer for that match, hits at 300 are usually made by guys who score high with other rifles.

They are robust and reliable rifles for the most part, but they really suffer at range.