Creature
Member
and
+1
what to do in a self defense situation....
- Thread starter Avalanche2082
- Start date
- Status
and
+1
jaholder1971
Member
Actually, even the "experts" differ on what to do in this situation.
I remember Mas Ayoob discussing this in one of his Ayoob Files in American Hangunner. I found the article online: Sudden assault: the Plana/Ibarra shooting - The Ayoob Files, American Handgunner, Nov-Dec, 2003
{Gleaned from the article} Don't attempt to answer in detail to questions of time, distance, etc. in the immediate aftermath of a life threatening experience. Such stress alters perceptions of time and space. Asked when the shooting took place, Plana would have done better with an honest answer of "Just now" instead of "Five minutes."
Finally, in a world where many investigators read silence as guilt, there are certain facts I firmly believe do need to be told to the police when they arrive on the scene. Suppose Emilio Plana had said this to Detective Tamayo: "This man attacked my girlfriend and I. I will sign the complaint. Keyla and L.N. both witnessed it. He dropped his weapon right there. You know how serious this is, Detective, and you will have our full cooperation in 24 hours after we've spoken with counsel."
Had the defendant in this case uttered those words at the scene instead of invoking his right to remain silent, I think there is an excellent chance that the case of Florida v. Emilio Plana would have been no-billed by a grand jury that recognized it for the justifiable homicide it was, instead of resulting in an ordeal that cost an honest armed citizen a year and a half of his life.
Mark Seiden {Defense attorney in the case} and I respectfully disagree on this. Mark feels that no person under this kind of stress can avoid being led down the primrose path to self-incrimination by a skilled questioner, and that by invoking his right to remain silent, Plana paid eighteen months of his life to keep the entire rest of that life. As a general rule, Selden advises to always invoke your right to silence and never give a statement to the police following a shooting.
I remember Mas Ayoob discussing this in one of his Ayoob Files in American Hangunner. I found the article online: Sudden assault: the Plana/Ibarra shooting - The Ayoob Files, American Handgunner, Nov-Dec, 2003
{Gleaned from the article} Don't attempt to answer in detail to questions of time, distance, etc. in the immediate aftermath of a life threatening experience. Such stress alters perceptions of time and space. Asked when the shooting took place, Plana would have done better with an honest answer of "Just now" instead of "Five minutes."
Finally, in a world where many investigators read silence as guilt, there are certain facts I firmly believe do need to be told to the police when they arrive on the scene. Suppose Emilio Plana had said this to Detective Tamayo: "This man attacked my girlfriend and I. I will sign the complaint. Keyla and L.N. both witnessed it. He dropped his weapon right there. You know how serious this is, Detective, and you will have our full cooperation in 24 hours after we've spoken with counsel."
Had the defendant in this case uttered those words at the scene instead of invoking his right to remain silent, I think there is an excellent chance that the case of Florida v. Emilio Plana would have been no-billed by a grand jury that recognized it for the justifiable homicide it was, instead of resulting in an ordeal that cost an honest armed citizen a year and a half of his life.
Mark Seiden {Defense attorney in the case} and I respectfully disagree on this. Mark feels that no person under this kind of stress can avoid being led down the primrose path to self-incrimination by a skilled questioner, and that by invoking his right to remain silent, Plana paid eighteen months of his life to keep the entire rest of that life. As a general rule, Selden advises to always invoke your right to silence and never give a statement to the police following a shooting.
The cop investigating the incident is not your friend, no matter how friendly he seems. At best, he is making an effort to find out what actually happened and write a report that reflects that. At worst, he has already decided you are guilty of something and is trying to make it stick.
Cops get lots of brownie points for finding the guilty. They get none at all for releasing the innocent.
BTW, the cop investigating the incident isn't necessarily your enemy either, so best to be respectful. Cops are by and large control freaks and a respectful attitude goes a long way with them.
revjen45
Member
Declining to run off at the mouth and being disrespectful are 2 different things. If you call them ****ing pigs, morons, etc you have indeed made it a personal vendetta, and they will do their best to destroy the rest of your life. Saying you will speak to them after consultation with counsel and after the physiological effects of a deadly confrontation have worn off is not disrespect. Check this out http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation1.htm for an excellent presentation of how a police interrogation is choreographed and structured. Explain that you wish to cooperate and will in the near future (like when you can hear again) and ****. Also, IIRC one of your rights like access to legal counsel is cessation of interrogation once you request it. I am not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express once.
TwitchALot
Member
Chief said:
It isn't? Then what is, exactly? How would you "hurt the sensitivities" of the officer, then?
Come on Chief, the least you can do is be fair about this. You don't believe insulting someone won't "hurt the sensitivities" AND you believe that saying:
"Or you can listen to the internet geniuses with formal training and advice from lawyers that never handled a criminal case, or are afraid of upsetting the sensitivities of an investigating officer. YOUR CHOICE. Go figure."
isn't at all insulting?
I already explained the hard and fast rules, and a couple things you should say. I don't see how I kept you or anyone else in suspense at all.
I'm a big believer in being ready BEFORE something happens to you. So is the place where I was trained. As such, they were thoughtful enough to have gone over the legal aspect of shootings in great detail with the experience of LEO officers (some were instructors, others in the class), lawyers, and soforth. The fact that you apparently assume that it's impossible for someone to say something that would be helpful to them in the long run after a shooting is absurd. Let me repeat myself again: if you have no idea what you're doing, keep your mouth shut. That's good general advice. But it is not a rule that cannot be broken.
And what kind of attorney do you have? An former-LEO who knows the DA or has other connections in the LE community or just an expensive one?
I'm not going to make a poll asking LEO's to come and take a vote. If they'd like to do that, they can do so. Is sac LEO by the way? If so, he's chimed in already. If you like Ayoob, you can go look at Jah's post. I haven't verified it, though.
ilbob said:
You've never had a cop pull you over, or hear of one pulling someone else over, and let someone go without the speeding ticket when that person should have gotten one? Some officers are control freaks and just love the power. But some of them are honest to good citizens that are just concerned about the safety of others. I think it's unfair to say that they'll never be on your side in a shooting incident.
Creature
Member
Uhhh...okay. I am not sure what your point is there.
Regardless, it much doesnt matter what the officers think about you and about the incident...or if they are on your side. It is the DA who is the biggest concern. And the best thing you can do for is not provide the rope with which to hang yourself.
AKA: ****...and ask for an attorney.
TwitchALot
Member
Creature said:
My point is that the police are not always out to get you. And that there are actually decent cops out there who are just concerned about your safety.
That's absolutely true. Which is why getting the right lawyer (not necessarily the most expensive one) is absolutely critical.
OldTXCop
Member
TwitchALot & everyone else: I don't know about anyone's training on this site, only my own. Having spent many years in LE, and having investigated many shootings, and having been involved in more than I care to discuss myself, I can say this. No training can get you ready for what you will encounter if you have to use a gun to defend yourself.
Even LE assoc. attorneys will tell you, don't say anything at the scene. Never make a statement before you have spoken to your attorney. You will be in a state of shock so to speak, and yes anything you say, that may not be the exact truth, can be used to attack your creditability, or your truthfulness.
I think the best you can do at the scene is: Tell the officers on the scene you are upset and would rather not say anything until you have spoken to your attorney. If the officer asks if you have something to hide, reply with something like, "If you were involved in a shooting, would you make a statement, before you spoke to your association/union attorney? Then make a request for any medical assistance you may need." Any reasonable officer would understand where you are coming from and not pursue the subject any further. He would probably also feel you are trained and not trying to hide anything.
JMHO
Even LE assoc. attorneys will tell you, don't say anything at the scene. Never make a statement before you have spoken to your attorney. You will be in a state of shock so to speak, and yes anything you say, that may not be the exact truth, can be used to attack your creditability, or your truthfulness.
I think the best you can do at the scene is: Tell the officers on the scene you are upset and would rather not say anything until you have spoken to your attorney. If the officer asks if you have something to hide, reply with something like, "If you were involved in a shooting, would you make a statement, before you spoke to your association/union attorney? Then make a request for any medical assistance you may need." Any reasonable officer would understand where you are coming from and not pursue the subject any further. He would probably also feel you are trained and not trying to hide anything.
JMHO
Creature
Member
Okay, so its settled then! Say nothing, ask for an attorney, and seek medical attention. Should be easy enough to remember!
At the suggestion of previous posts, I googled "police interrogation techniques" and boy, is it enlightening--like the 9 steps of the Reid interrogation method. It's sickening!
http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation1.htm
****! Or, demand counsel, then ****!
http://people.howstuffworks.com/police-interrogation1.htm
****! Or, demand counsel, then ****!
TwitchALot
Member
I'm a little confused now. Are we talking about after you've been arrested and you're at the station about to be/being interrogated, or are we talking about the point right after the officer has put you in cuffs at the scene and is trying to figure out what happened?
TX, excellent input. Would your advice be then, literally not say anything (short of the exceptions you made)?
TX, excellent input. Would your advice be then, literally not say anything (short of the exceptions you made)?
sacp81170a
Member
Exactly!
I would bet that the majority of cops are decent human beings. There is just no way to know whether the one investigating your situation is a decent one or not.
I am not sure that control freaks can't also be decent human beings. The two are not mutually exclusive, and I think even most LEOs would have to admit that police work attracts control freaks. Being a control freak does not make you a bad person if you are able to control those baser urges in an appropriate way.
ZeSpectre
Member
The problem is that, in a crisis situation, once you start talking it's astoundingly hard for most people to stop.
The best advice is to keep your mouth shut as much as possible and get a lawyer as fast as possible. Also teach your friends and family to keep quiet as well ESPECIALLY to the press (who are just looking for a good shock-value story and who don't give a damn about what telling a story will do to you).
The best advice is to keep your mouth shut as much as possible and get a lawyer as fast as possible. Also teach your friends and family to keep quiet as well ESPECIALLY to the press (who are just looking for a good shock-value story and who don't give a damn about what telling a story will do to you).
redneckdan
Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2006
- Messages
- 480
I can only give my personal experience. In any situation when interacting with a peace officer in a proffessional situation, I have learned to say the absolute minimum or nothing at all. Living in a small town has really opened my eyes, my land lord is a local LEO and also while chillin at the local micro-brewery or running errands in town I regularly interact with LEOs of the local and state level One officer I got to know quite well at the brewery; last fall I was wrongly accused of involvement with theft of a snowmobile, that officer was the one who called me to ask some questions. From the moment he called to talk to me till he finally left the college pistol range I could sense that his whole mission was to extract incriminating information from me. It seemed as if he had no regard to my innocence or even to the safety of the occupants of the pistol range (I am an RO, it was my duty night, he was distracting me from my duties). Honestly it was like talking to two different people.
He is investigating a crime. What did you expect?
When you interact with cops on an official basis they are acting on behalf of the government, not on your behalf. It is up to you to act in your best interests, not him. I do not fault him at all for that.
redneckdan
Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2006
- Messages
- 480
I didn't mean my statement in a derogitory sense. I gave my $.02 to give a real world example of the fact that LEOs are not in the business of proving innocence but are here to figure out "who-don-it".
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Problem is that many people have been taught that those are the same thing
First
As others have posted, the psychological trauma of shooting some one is going to be huge. I don't think anyone could trust any training they have had to say the "right thing" what ever that maybe. I have seen on TV cops broken down in tears after they had to shoot some one, and they probably have had a lot more training in that area then most civilians.
The issue of the police liking you is irrelevant, their job is collect evidence, and they WILL do their job.
The ONLY thing that matters is what evidence they have to use against you. ANYTHING you say is evidence, so not saying anything only makes less evidence that can be used against you.
The smart path is obviously to not say anything other then “I want my lawyer” and “I’m too upset to talk.”
Later with your lawyers help you can answer the questions the police have for you in a clear and orderly fashion.
Anyone watch “The First 48”?? I have seen a lot of people go to jail on that show because they decided to talk to the police, not that they weren’t guilty, but that’s not the point here. If they just didn’t talk, they would not have gone to jail.
That killed me.
As others have posted, the psychological trauma of shooting some one is going to be huge. I don't think anyone could trust any training they have had to say the "right thing" what ever that maybe. I have seen on TV cops broken down in tears after they had to shoot some one, and they probably have had a lot more training in that area then most civilians.
The issue of the police liking you is irrelevant, their job is collect evidence, and they WILL do their job.
The ONLY thing that matters is what evidence they have to use against you. ANYTHING you say is evidence, so not saying anything only makes less evidence that can be used against you.
The smart path is obviously to not say anything other then “I want my lawyer” and “I’m too upset to talk.”
Later with your lawyers help you can answer the questions the police have for you in a clear and orderly fashion.
Anyone watch “The First 48”?? I have seen a lot of people go to jail on that show because they decided to talk to the police, not that they weren’t guilty, but that’s not the point here. If they just didn’t talk, they would not have gone to jail.
Those same people probably think Adam12 and Dragnet were realistic depictions of police work too.
Ideally, cops would investigate incidents with an open mind, looking to determine what actually happened, and would always come up with the "right" answer. But being human, they can succumb to laziness, or their own personal bias for or against someone, or they can just plain get it wrong. It is not in your own best interest to help them lock you up.
It is important to do what is in your best interest. You are the only one that can do that.
Rick O'Shea
Member
Mas covered this on Personal Defense TV last season, and the advice was pretty much word-for-word as jaholder1971 said ("He attacked me, I will sign the complaint, there are witnesses, over there is evidence, and I will cooperate fully after advice from counsel...").
It's also important to be the first one to call 911.
All you're doing is establishing to the responding officers that you are a cooperative victim.
Then, Shut Up, call your lawyer, and generally be what you are: a highly traumatized decent citizen who just had to kill a bad guy.
Don't discuss it - be it. Most, if not all police will understand.
The comments about being too upset to talk, and requesting medical attention are also excellent advice.
It's also important to be the first one to call 911.
All you're doing is establishing to the responding officers that you are a cooperative victim.
Then, Shut Up, call your lawyer, and generally be what you are: a highly traumatized decent citizen who just had to kill a bad guy.
Don't discuss it - be it. Most, if not all police will understand.
The comments about being too upset to talk, and requesting medical attention are also excellent advice.
- Status