what to do in a self defense situation....

[chieftain]

"Or you can listen to the internet geniuses with formal training and advice from lawyers that never handled a criminal case, or are afraid of upsetting the sensitivities of an investigating officer. YOUR CHOICE. Go figure."

isn't at all insulting?

If you said it. Which you did. How could it be insulting. It is wrong. If you are one of those folks, that can not graciously accept being wrong, I can't help you. Or if you are one of those folks that think anyone disagreeing with you is insulting you. I can't help you.

IF you believe you are right, go ahead. When you shoot someone you can say and do what ever you want to do. It is America. Just say hello to Bubba.

"None are so blind as those who choose not to see."

Some folks may even find that insulting. For them, I feel sad.

AS to the issue of this Thread.

If you shoot someone, Ask for an attorney, and ****. If you need to go to the bathroom, ask to go, then ****. IF you need Medical Care, state that you need medical care then ****.

The common theme is ****.

Some folks just cannot or will not ****. During my career in the Corps we called that a lack of discipline. Self Discipline.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[HimNAz]

One More Vote for the Ayoob Plan

1. That man attacked me.

2. I will sign the complaint.

3. Those people are witnesses.

4. There is evidence (shell casings, firearms, etc.).

5. You know how serious this is, Detective, and you will have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I've spoken with counsel and been checked by my doctor

You do have your attorney's business card in your wallet and a cell phone, I'm sure.

(Regarding evidence, Ayoob tells of a shooting that occurred at night on an icy windy street. The empties actually blew across the street. Also, some people may pick up the empties.)

 

[ZeSpectre]

make it 48 hours.

 

[TwitchALot]

If you said it. Which you did. How could it be insulting. It is wrong. If you are one of those folks, that can not graciously accept being wrong, I can't help you. Or if you are one of those folks that think anyone disagreeing with you is insulting you. I can't help you.

Go ahead Chief- point out to where I said all that. And of course, me quoting what you said doesn't count. Just don't try to screw around and waste my time. I've addressed every one of your questions, and I've been clear and honest about my statements. I expect you to do the same. If you're going to make accusations and claims, you'd better be able to back them up.

Oh I did forget one more thing- you should also say that you want to press charges. I'm not sure if that's all too different from the "complaint," but it does show the officer that you are serious about the matter and that you aren't just wasting his time.

make it 48 hours.

It wouldn't even give a time frame. Who knows- maybe your lawyer had to suddenly go out of town, or he's not otherwise available. There's no need to specify a time- only that you'd like to talk to your lawyer first- so don't.

 

[GRIZ22]

but what happens when they try and interrogate you and try and make you say stuff or threaten you, or what happens if you need to use the restroom or you have medication you need to take or need medical attention do you just ask?? or are they going to say well you want something from us then you speak and tell us more before you get what you want??

If this is the case with the police in your area you really need to let the FBI know about this as they are eager to make violation of civil rights cases with any LEOs that try to do this.

I spent over 30 years as a LEO (local PD and Federal) and if a person wants to remain silent and wants a lawyer like it or not I'd just have to leave them alone. I would never say anything until I talked to a lawyer. Remember it's the prosecutor's job to prove you did something wrong not your job to prove your innocence. It's easier to prove your innoncence if you know what the prosecutor is going to say first. That's why you make no statements.

Are there overzealous LEOs and prosecutors out there? Sure but not as many as a lot of people seem to think.

 

[Stretchman]

remember something else. Just because they do not arrest you on scene doesn't mean that you are cleared. they can always come back later with new evidence and book you solid. better to be arrested for not saying anything and then cut loose than giving a statement and later getting popped for being caught in a lie, or other circumstances.

Most people know the people they end up shooting, or at least know of them.

 

[Wayne G.]

 

[ilbob]

Are there overzealous LEOs and prosecutors out there? Sure but not as many as a lot of people seem to think.

There are plenty of them out there though. And you have no way of knowing if the one(s) you are dealing with are honest and upfront or not. Cops and prosecutors do not wear ID tags that say "I am a decent human being" or "I am not a decent human being". That is why you must not depend on their good nature or decency to keep yourself out of jail, whether you committed a crime or not.

You may not even know if you committed a crime by your actions. It could be a legit action on your part that some waffling when you are talking about it convinces someone you are not legit.

Or you may have unwittingly committed some crime.

Either way, you are not in a position to give yourself good advice about what to say or what to do.

 

[Armed_in_AZ]

In my CCW class...

We were told by former LEO trainer to say three things:

"Arrest that Guy" pointing to the individual you shot,
"I was in fear for my life",
"I want to speak to my Attorney"

That sounds good to me.

 

[sacp81170a]

remember something else. Just because they do not arrest you on scene doesn't mean that you are cleared. they can always come back later with new evidence and book you solid. better to be arrested for not saying anything and then cut loose than giving a statement and later getting popped for being caught in a lie, or other circumstances.

Another important thing to remember, if you should happen to be arrested and taken to jail, DO NOT TALK TO THE OTHER INMATES! These people are not your friends. There are "regulars" in the system who are willing to lie about what you might say in exchange for privileges. If they don't know why you're there in the first place, it's harder for them to make anything believable up. ****(after giving basic info to the LEO's ONLY) applies to everyone you meet, not just the police.

I'm aware that it might feel good to unburden your woes after a stressful shooting and an arrest to a sympathetic soul, but that sympathetic soul ain't lookin' out for anyone but him or herself. "Jailhouse snitches" aren't imaginary.

 

[OldTXCop]

My last comment on this subject. The officer at the scene is bound by law, to collect evidence, and report anything and everything that may be relevant. It is not his decision what is or isn't used in investigating the case. That is the job of the district attorney, and that is a publicly elected official, who can be swayed by public pressure. There are many factors that come into play in this situation. But remember, if you make a "res gestae" statement, (blurting out something, without interogation) it is admissable, regardless if you have asked to speak to an attorney, or not. That is why it is paramount you keep silent until you have spoken to an attorney. Yes, pretty much the Ayoob plan. As soon as the officer asks you a question about the particulars of the shooting, you need to stop the interogation.

I hope this will get everyone thinking and I pray none of you ever have to experience this first hand.

 

[Richmond]

snitches and whatnot

I'm aware that it might feel good to unburden your woes after a stressful shooting and an arrest to a sympathetic soul, but that sympathetic soul ain't lookin' out for anyone but him or herself. "Jailhouse snitches" aren't imaginary.

Or, for that matter, try to avoid circumstances where a snitch could claim you were talking to him about the case, i.e. in quiet conversation with one person. Nearly every homicide I have handled, where the person remained incarcerated pretrial, involved the appearance of a snitch who claimed my client told him the details of the crime.

A little more info on the snitch system in the form of a pdf from the Center for Wrongful Convictions:

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/documents/SnitchSystemBooklet.pdf

 

[30 cal slob]

1. That man attacked me.

2. I will sign the complaint.

3. Those people are witnesses.

4. There is evidence (shell casings, firearms, etc.).

5. You know how serious this is, Detective, and you will have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I've spoken with counsel and been checked by my doctor

You do have your attorney's business card in your wallet and a cell phone, I'm sure.

Okay, I have a question. I'm on board with the Ayoob script ... but I don't get the "been checked by my doctor" part. I'm checking my LFI1 notes, this wasn't mentioned in the program. "Turn yer head and cough" ... how's that gonna help me?

What's the rationale of getting checked out by my doc post-shooting?

 

[strat81]

What's the rationale of getting checked out by my doc post-shooting?

Adrenaline is some crazy stuff. So is stress. Never been there, but I think both are present during and after a shooting. I think the rationale is to have a doctor check you out to make sure you're not about to have a stroke or heart attack. It's also possible you have sustained injuries during the shooting (barrel burn, pinched fingers, twisted ankle, concussion, wounds from the aggressor, etc.).

I mean, have you ever ALMOST been in a car accident. I'm talking about the ones where you were inches from serious badness. I have. I pull over because I can't concentrate on anything, my heart is racing, my hands may be shaking, etc. I'd guess a real life-or-death, fight-or-flight situation would be worse.

 

[Richmond]

adrenaline

Adrenaline is some crazy stuff

And the problem is that it makes people talk and chatter like crazy. I like the basic "Ayoob script" and think that a self defense case that comes to me with those facts is ideal. It allows you to, if necessary, tell a jury that the client did what the jury thinks they would do in his/her shoes - say the bad guy tried to kill him/her and that he/she was afraid for his/her life.

The risk is that, in the post event state, you are really vulnerable to "just a couple of follow-up questions". Which can be very treacherous no matter how right your actions were.

So, **** is safe - it is a simple and clear line.

The "Ayoob" outline may be more ideal, but carries some risks.

 

[Nicky Santoro]

Many people believe that if you unass the area prior to the arrival of the popo you are not implicated. These same people believe that if a deceased perp is found behind KMart and not on your living room floor, you are not implicated. They also believe that the perp has his karma and you have yours. Opinions vary. That is obvious from the spewings of some of the ovulators who previously posted.