What would you carry? High risk job.

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I was born into and spent decades in high risk work.

I carried what fit me and what I shot best. I also used what many around here would not approve of in regard to size, platform and caliber. Then again I was sometimes HAD to be "discreet" or just flat out "undercover". I don't give a rip, I was raised right, and had extensive trigger time dealing with high risk situations. And yes, I have been there, and have survived. So I am not Internet bull crap, but real deal, full tilt boogie "situations" experience.


Dogbite,
the deal is you take prudent steps, you carry 24/7/52, and you have taken H's dealie shooting five rounds at five yards at a 1/4 sheet of typing paper under a stop watch of which you shot that gun with those loads best. Affording quick effective hits. Correct?

If so,don't worry about it.
If not, correct what needs correcting.

Preventive, then corrective.
 
FYI

I was just in a LARGE local gun shop and was able to walk up near most of the OC armed clerks.

They are used to people walking up behind them and they take NO action to cover their weapon.

My example of armed robbery attempts at armored cars is what I call a good reason to not OC.

Do as you like,after all == its your life.
 
icemanmpls said:
...This has been debated before. It does not matter what ammo you carry in your weapon of choice....
Click to expand...
Tell that to the hack, ethics-of-a-politician lawyer who comes after you, be it a DA looking to climb over as many bloody bodies as he needs to in order to get higher on the food chain, or the ambulance chasing legal thief who represents your target or his family. Gun writer and legal expert Mas Ayoob recommends this. A couple of cop friends of mine recommend it. I do it because it makes sense to me. Everyone may make their own choice, I think this is a good one.
 
I forgot to add I have two shotguns behind the counter, an 870, and a 500 tactical, so anywhere I am in the shop behind the counter, I have shotgun access. I still carry a sidearm all the time--I was just curious to see what others would do in my situation.
Click to expand...

I would not recommend two seperate manuals of arms with regards to the shotguns. The safeties and slide releases are in different locations on the 870 and the 500. I would replace one of those with a copy of the other. Keep them both loaded in the exact same condition with regards to chambering and safety position. Your current system puts you at serious risk of grabbing a shotgun and having to 'think' about how it operates, instead of simply reacting to the situation. This could have disasterous consequences in a high-stress, life-or-death situation. Choose a system and stick with it.

Please at least reconsider your current shotgun setup.
 
I am confident and competent with the Glock 22 I carry at work. However, I just don't like it. Carry whatever you like if you are confident and competent with it. You just ensure that it is a fight stopper caliber (min .38 SPL/9x19mm).

Off duty I carry a three-inch S&W 13-3 or a four-inch S&W 10-5 with a S&W 37 backing up either one*. Depending on where I'm going and what I'm doing off duty, I may be carrying all three.

ECS

*(The Model 37 backs up my Glock on duty as well.)
 
alaskanativeson said:
Tell that to the hack, ethics-of-a-politician lawyer who comes after you, be it a DA looking to climb over as many bloody bodies as he needs to in order to get higher on the food chain, or the ambulance chasing legal thief who represents your target or his family. Gun writer and legal expert Mas Ayoob recommends this. A couple of cop friends of mine recommend it. I do it because it makes sense to me. Everyone may make their own choice, I think this is a good one.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with this theory or your post, but keep in mind that a Police department will choose a multi-tasker round for it's officers, and the person in the OP won't necessarily need to shoot through walls, windshields, or car doors. With a small showroom full of employees and customers, over penetration is a valid concern, especially with the .357 Sig.

LD
 
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Alaskanativeson - + 1

alaskanativeson
Member


Join Date: March 1, 2008
Location: Cowboy Country
Posts: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by icemanmpls
...This has been debated before. It does not matter what ammo you carry in your weapon of choice....
Tell that to the hack, ethics-of-a-politician lawyer who comes after you, be it a DA looking to climb over as many bloody bodies as he needs to in order to get higher on the food chain, or the ambulance chasing legal thief who represents your target or his family. Gun writer and legal expert Mas Ayoob recommends this. A couple of cop friends of mine recommend it. I do it because it makes sense to me. Everyone may make their own choice, I think this is a good one.
__________________

To any who have not sat in a courtroom and heard the attack on a gun or ammunition,I say that your looking for a loss of your house,wife,car,job.

And I am not overstating the situation.

Read any tort case law and you will see the reality of your decent actions,torn to shreds and you made a fool by a PAID mouthpiece .

If you can at least state that the reason you chose a LEO depts version of ammunition,you cant have that attacked.

As is stated above,do as you please but dont stick your head in the sand.
 
Your gun sounds fine, and all the other comments are good.

I agree with the practice and training comments for sure. As well as the shotgun or six stashed around. :D

Don't forget a quickly deployed knife or two.
One is none, two is one.

If I were in your shoes, my Kimber 1911 cocked and locked would be my choice #1, with my stone reliable 640 j frame as backup.
One is none, two is one.

Interesting thread, that's for sure!

Dan
 
scaatylobo said:
alaskanativeson
Member


Join Date: March 1, 2008
Location: Cowboy Country
Posts: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by icemanmpls
...This has been debated before. It does not matter what ammo you carry in your weapon of choice....
Tell that to the hack, ethics-of-a-politician lawyer who comes after you, be it a DA looking to climb over as many bloody bodies as he needs to in order to get higher on the food chain, or the ambulance chasing legal thief who represents your target or his family. Gun writer and legal expert Mas Ayoob recommends this. A couple of cop friends of mine recommend it. I do it because it makes sense to me. Everyone may make their own choice, I think this is a good one.
__________________

To any who have not sat in a courtroom and heard the attack on a gun or ammunition,I say that your looking for a loss of your house,wife,car,job.

And I am not overstating the situation.

Read any tort case law and you will see the reality of your decent actions,torn to shreds and you made a fool by a PAID mouthpiece .

If you can at least state that the reason you chose a LEO depts version of ammunition,you cant have that attacked.

As is stated above,do as you please but dont stick your head in the sand.
Click to expand...
Scatty,
Please show me the tort, refer any case law involving the justifiable use of force that the rounds used are an issue. Please give me an example.

I said it once, I will say it again. "If justifiable use of force has been proven, then class, category, or type of force used to stop the felony does not matter. It can be a 16" naval gun, flame thrower, or .44 magnum hollow point hand loads.

Remember, the key words here are "justifiable use of force"
 
Additional thoughts, around here some jewelers use a magnetic latch on their front door.
That way they can control access to the shop and avoid a "swarm" of visitors. My local gun shop has camera on the entry area/parking lot, and someone (usually the owner, armed) is at the back of the shop and carefully keeps an eye on those monitors until he recognizes the individuals as "friendly" repeat customers.
 
I'm asking this as a question more than advice...

What about open carrying something that's actually empty - a decoy - on your weak side? If someone gets the drop on you and demands it Hollywood style, you dump the dummy gun and still have your loaded service gun under cover on your strong side.

Skeeter Skelton had a deputy who did that back in the day - had an empty .38-44 Heavy Duty on his belt and a pair of cut-down Model 10s in shoulder rigs.

Q
 
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If you have to think about it, you are already behind. Carry what you have practiced and do not have to think about. That puts you ahead.
 
Rohrbaugh R9 loaded with FMJ ammo producing least muzzle flash would be most preferable. I would take that combo over anything else out there.
 
Theicemanmpls

Scatty,
Please show me the tort, refer any case law involving the justifiable use of force that the rounds used are an issue. Please give me an example.

I said it once, I will say it again. "If justifiable use of force has been proven, then class, category, or type of force used to stop the felony does not matter. It can be a 16" naval gun, flame thrower, or .44 magnum hollow point hand loads.

Remember, the key words here are "justifiable use of force"

The D.A. for Niagara County stated [ back when I was LEO ] that any shooting involving Glaser Safety Slugs would be charged as a murder.

That is one simple example of "how much money you got to spend" protecting your job,assets,privacy.

I have seen the aftermath of a "good shoot" that caused the shooter to sell their house and SPEND THEIR MONEY defending against a civil charge.

that is where the problem lies,and if you want to research that.

Enjoy yourself,I dont have the time or energy.

I also stated that "do as you please".

remember,its too late AFTERWARDS to change your mind or ammunition.
 
scaatylobo said:
Scatty,
Please show me the tort, refer any case law involving the justifiable use of force that the rounds used are an issue. Please give me an example.

I said it once, I will say it again. "If justifiable use of force has been proven, then class, category, or type of force used to stop the felony does not matter. It can be a 16" naval gun, flame thrower, or .44 magnum hollow point hand loads.

Remember, the key words here are "justifiable use of force"

The D.A. for Niagara County stated [ back when I was LEO ] that any shooting involving Glaser Safety Slugs would be charged as a murder.

That is one simple example of "how much money you got to spend" protecting your job,assets,privacy.

I have seen the aftermath of a "good shoot" that caused the shooter to sell their house and SPEND THEIR MONEY defending against a civil charge.

that is where the problem lies,and if you want to research that.

Enjoy yourself,I dont have the time or energy.

I also stated that "do as you please".

remember,its too late AFTERWARDS to change your mind or ammunition.
Click to expand...
Scatty,
I asked that you show us some case law to back up what you said. As a former LEO, you must know that "hear say" is not proof. Telling us all there was a memo from way back, don't cut it either.

I am just asking that you qualify your statement.

Respectfully, I ask, do you work for a ammunition company association?

The reason I ask, is, because I have never heard of any court case to back up the rumor that one will be prosecuted for their selection of self defense ammo, I must believe the rumor was started, and is in place to keep all of us paying obscene amounts of hard earned money for factory made high end ammo.

With the components, most re- loaders can duplicate factory loads. Even the high end fancy stuff.

I am not saying factory ammo is bad. Quite the contrary. IMO, the odds of factory made center-fire ammo having a FTF, is far less then the rounds rolled by Uncle Butch.

I say if you want the best, high quality, high tech ammo, then buy the premium store bought stuff.

If you confident in your re-loads, then by all means carry them.

This is not meant to be legal advice. I sincerely believe using hand loads during a justifiable shooting is going to mater very little. Unjustifiable shooting? All bets are off. Hope you enjoy Bologna sandwiches, and grape drink.
 
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Glock 17, with a good hollow point ammo. You'll get about the maximum capacity out there, with sufficient punch to do the job.
 
bit off topic- but to respond to Scaatylobo I live in Erie County, and used to live in Niagara County. I've spoken with judges, investigators, and police in both and cannot say I've heard what he has about ammunition. I do know a number of BPD who carry Glaser off duty though (I never would pay the price for the stuff personally).

Also Scaaty- I hope you had better experiences at that 'big gunshop' than I have :) I bought one gun there and never will again- terrible service and dishonest to boot!

Johnsons is nice, but I suspect you know that :)

For erie county, many of the police I have encountered (BPD) are very good about concealed carry and though they aren't 100% on all of the local laws (but who doesn't have to look things up?) they are not quick to charge / condemn anyone for gun violations without checking the book first.

This came up while discussing how to identify a pre-ban NYS legal mag and a non-compliant mag.

to steer my comment back on topic a bit more- have you asked for extra patrols in your area to help create a layered plan for protection?
 
trickyasafox said:
bit off topic- but to respond to Scaatylobo I live in Erie County, and used to live in Niagara County. I've spoken with judges, investigators, and police in both and cannot say I've heard what he has about ammunition. I do know a number of BPD who carry Glaser off duty though (I never would pay the price for the stuff personally).

Also Scaaty- I hope you had better experiences at that 'big gunshop' than I have :) I bought one gun there and never will again- terrible service and dishonest to boot!

Johnsons is nice, but I suspect you know that :)

For erie county, many of the police I have encountered (BPD) are very good about concealed carry and though they aren't 100% on all of the local laws (but who doesn't have to look things up?) they are not quick to charge / condemn anyone for gun violations without checking the book first.

This came up while discussing how to identify a pre-ban NYS legal mag and a non-compliant mag.

to steer my comment back on topic a bit more- have you asked for extra patrols in your area to help create a layered plan for protection?
Click to expand...
I want to chime in about designer ammo such a Glaser safety slug.

I have read about the stuff from a number of sources. I am totally convinced that if the shooter does his part and his aim is true, and no FTF's the shooter will live another day.

These rounds will put a major hurt on the largest, meanest bad guy out there. A huge bonus is they will not over penetrate your dwelling and take out your neighbor Bruce while he is watching Glee on his TV.

The problem I have with these designer rounds, is the cost.

My personal standards dictate that I run at least 100 rounds of carry ammo, in addition to break in as well as practice ammo though my carry pistol. I will fire my carry ammo after five years of storage. I know ammo lasts a long time, but........

An exception may be a wheel gun after proper break in. I like the idea of them Glasers in a 357 HD revolver. i do know the Federal Air Marshals were toying with these awhile back.

I know some will disagree, but I think semi-auto's jam at an alarming rate compared to wheel guns.

BTW, I roll my own carry ammo, and I carry what I reload.
 
The D.A. for Niagara County stated [ back when I was LEO ] that any shooting involving Glaser Safety Slugs would be charged as a murder.
Click to expand...

Does anyone have references of where the Glasers actually caused a death, with out a contact or head shot?

I know of none.

Thank you.

Fred

I am from Florida, and have lived in Arizona for the last 36 years. Spent some time moving between the two for about 10 years. Spent two years in Manhattan.

My advice for those that do not live in a Free State is to move, or quickly change your laws. And get rid of the Prosecutors that are pro criminal.

Simply amazing.
 
Because of the situation and the possibility of multiple bad guys I would carry a semi-auto because of the quick reloads. I would carry either a S&W M&P in .45 Auto or a 1911 in .45 Auto loaded with the most accurate 230gr Premium Hollow Point ammo I can find. I would also carry at least 1 BUG, probably a S&W J frame in .357 Magnum. (because I can shoot one well)

OR, a S&W Model M&P R8 which is an 8 round .357 Magnum along with a J frame .357 Magnum BUG. (Not many situations can't be solved with 13 rounds of .357 Magnum)
 
The Glock you are carrying is fine. An extra magazine and perhaps a Ruger LCP or the like in the back pocket and you are ready to go. Also stash some shotguns under the counters and in the back of the store. Good hunting.:D
 
The Glock in .357 Sig should do the job just fine. I would also place a
shotgun in a quickly accessable place and 3 or 4 magazines as well.
If you can afford it, a metal detector at the door might give you an
early warning of trouble.
 
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