what's more acurate, shooting a handgun traditional, or sideways

[David E]

It sounds like this guy fancies himself a trickshot, thinking that holding a gun sideways and then, using the sights, will amaze and astound his audience with a hit.

If that's the case and the OP has time, he should practice some shots holding the gun UPSIDE DOWN.

As others have said, as long as the sights are aligned and you squeeze the trigger, the shot will go where it's supposed to.

 

[HBrebel]

sideways is the killshot. ain't that what they said on the movie Date Night? I know all the gangbangers like to shoot "hollywood" style, thats why so many innocents get hit instead of the targeted gangster. This reminds me of so many hollywood gun goofs. Watch Escape from L.A. every damn gun on that movie is scoped, even the revolver that Snake carries.

 

[Boberama]

Massad Ayoob did an article on this. Eastern European police forces were teaching cops to shoot like that!

Gangsta Shooting Method

In the January 1998 issue of Handguns, gunwriter Massad Ayoob investigates "gangsta-style shooting," a method of shooting being popularized by the entertainment media.

Gangsta-style shooting is an unorthodox one-handed combat handgun stance wherein the weapon is canted 90 degrees from "normal." This unconventional shooting method is appearing more and more frequently in movies and television.

When Hollywood first introduced us to gangsta-style shooting it was met with snickers of derision from firearms instructors and experienced shooters, who quickly recognized it as an inferior technique. However, Ayoob mentions his encounter with an unnamed European armed service that was teaching its personnel to shoot gangsta-style as the technique of choice. According to Ayoob, their reasoning was: "Americans are on top of pistols, and they have their best people as technical advisors for their films, so it must be the thing to do."
It’s not uncommon for new shooting students to inquire of their instructors why they aren’t being taught this specific technique. After all, it’s new, they’ve seen it on TV and in the movies, it looks "wuz-up cuz" cool and cold-killer businesslike, so it obviously must be better than the old fashioned methods!

If you’re a firearms instructor, this would be a good handout article for your new students. In it Ayoob conjectures about the origins of the practice, and discusses a few shooting incidents that he’s personally aware of in which this trendy street technique was used. He also puts gangsta-style to the test, with very poor results.

Ayoob, Massad: "‘Gangsta’ Shooting: Does it Work?", Handguns 12(1): 24-27, 69-71, January 1998.

 

[Boberama]

From the Liberian Civil war. All sideways.

I guess untrained troops don't really know what to do. Same with movie producers and gangsters.

Keep in mind that many people in Third World countries don't have a clue how to operate a gun.

In memoir I read the author held an AK-47 and did not know which way it shot, and was afraid of touching the cartridges because he thought they were red hot.

 

[GLOOB]

Hollywood silliness aside, it IS possible to curve a bullet. But you'd have to move the gun laterally at several hundred feet per second, which would obviously make it impossible to aim a handgun.

Imagine a gun moving laterally at 1000 fps as it fires. Bullet muzzle speed is also 1000 fps. The bullets is now actually travelling at a 45 degree angle from the direction the muzzle was pointed (at a velocity of the square root of 2,000,000 fps.) Simple vectoring. But the bullet is now pointed at a 45 degree angle from the direction of travel, and it will attempt to retain this orientation due to gyroscopic stabilization. The bullet will curve both up/down due to the direction of spin (backspin/topspin), as well as canting off in the direction of the nose.

Due to the density of a bullet, the curve will be relatively slight. I wonder if helicopter gunners see this curve while they're shooting tracers.

 

[plmcrzy]

Thanks for the input everyone, wow!! I would have never thought this topic would get so much attention

 

[MacTech]

Hollywood silliness aside, it IS possible to curve a bullet. But you'd have to move the gun laterally at several hundred feet per second, which would obviously make it impossible to aim a handgun.

Imagine a gun moving laterally at 1000 fps as it fires. Bullet muzzle speed is also 1000 fps. The bullets is now actually travelling at a 45 degree angle from the direction the muzzle was pointed (at a velocity of the square root of 2,000,000 fps.) Simple vectoring. But the bullet is now pointed at a 45 degree angle from the direction of travel, and it will attempt to retain this orientation due to gyroscopic stabilization. The bullet will curve both up/down due to the direction of spin (backspin/topspin), as well as canting off in the direction of the nose.

Due to the density of a bullet, the curve will be relatively slight. I wonder if helicopter gunners see this curve while they're shooting tracers.

Myth Busted, not even a robotic arm could do it

 

[Moose1995]

I was just going to say, but Mactech beat me to it...... They tried on mythbusters and you cannot curve the flight of a bullet. The bullet flies straight the instant it leaves the muzzle, no matter how fast the gun is traveling. Only curving downward with gravity, or side to side from wind over great distances. oh yeah, and I think the gun turned sideways was originally developed so the brass was easier to collect after committing a crime. Leave no evidence behind. Certainly not because its a more accurate way to shoot.

 

[David E]

I therorize that you could curve a bullet, but it would require a very sudden sideways movement when the bullet is 1/2 out of the barrel. If done exactly right, the bullet would be launched already yawing. Evenso, it would never return to the original line of sight like the movie showed.

Impossible to do in practice, however. [/thread drift]

 

[burley]

The sideways hold is for drivebys so the hot brass doesn't hit the guy in the back seat.

 

[Apuuli]

The possibility of curving a bullet is dealt with by Newton. Objects move in straight lines unless acted upon by an outside force. Thus bullets curve downwards as gravity is acting upon them and curve sideways if acted upon by wind. A bullet will curve when the barrel is moved to the side as it is moving down the barrel and to the side because the barrel is pushing it. After the bullet leaves the barrel, however, there is no force (barring wind) acting on it laterally so it will fly in a straight path but the longitudinal axis will be a bit cockeyed.

 

[.zerocool.]

With today's technology it doesn't matter. You can shoot with the gun sideways, upside down, at an angle whatever, and you can still get a right side up view of the target, without looking through a scope. Hold it at your hip, over your head, between your legs, doing a hand stand, anything. It depends on the technology and scope your using. Well and how much money you have.

So, technically, you can shoot a gun from ANY position, and have it be just as accurate if not more accurate than holding a gun from a traditional stance. Technology changes everything. Buut that is a long way's away from the avg consumer budget. So, if your talking about which is the most accurate way you personally can shoot... it's traditional. Wait a couple years and that will change. Military wise, it's about to the point these scopes have the go for mass production. Basically you can blind fire with the same accuracy as a traditional stance, without physically looking through any sights.

It's called a HUD. No more need for scopes. The HUD will take over and very quick, just as cell phones have taken over the communication arena.

But then again, I'm speaking technically. Once again, the tech is so new you will pay more than a pretty penny, but answering the topic question... my answer is fact. (Check future weapons [I think season 1 or 2 for the info]. It's no longer just in early prototyping. It's finalized. Now it's just waiting for the military contract, which will be followed by civilian use. Heck you can buy one now if your wallet is deep enough.


And to correct the "drive by" comment... no, it's now so you won't get shot. May seem "hollywood" but this is real tech, and it's here NOW. Funny how the whole "gangster" thing has turned real, but with major benefits from a tactical standpoint. No longer do you need to expose yourself, you look into your hud to see and fire with any finger from any position, with accuracy that rivals the traditional standpoints.

To add : no this was not the episode with that blind fire system that holds the pistol. This was the scope mounted to an m4 with the operator using a HUD display to look through, not some crappy pistol system mounted to an angle/foldable capable LCD included gun system. (that was lame... as who would use a glock in CQB situations where someone with an AK or such would be hiding.

O and on that mythbuster episode they used traditional "bullets". There are bullets that exist that are more like rockets that can change path, but thinking civilian use, this probably won't be a reality for many many years unlike the HUD system I mentioned. Plus I doubt any gov / state would allow basically a homing rocket type round in a hand weapon, or big weapon regardless. Buuuut the HUD system is legal, and will be legal. Can't ban scopes, but you can ban round types.

(to add, the pistol system was called the Israli Corner Shot. The system I referred to with the HUD was called the "Aimfinder" made by IDS, which aired in Season 3 of future weapons, episode 10 called Killzone). Man, look at that update speed. I shot through 20+ episodes, found the episode, season, sight name, company, all within what 5 min of my original post. ACE! - try finding that info on google. LOL well besides one post on a forum mentioning the same thing but they said season 3 episode 9... bah, I have the dvd's and it's season 3 episode 10. ACE! I'd post a pic of the system if I could find one. Good luck digging info on it quite yet as there are some serious "caps" on information out there. I'd take a screenshot and post it but the forum rules say not to sooooo get netflix, or buy the dvds!


To add : It is possible to curve a bullet. All bullets curve... downwards HAHA! (welll, unless there is a crazy cross wind, then they curve sideways. IE windage settings on a scope. So technically the answer to "can a bullet curve"... is yes, they do on every single shot... just not intentionally, unless you are a godsend with reading wind, in which case it's "compensating" for the wind, not curving it intentionally like the "magic bullet" did that killed kennedy.

Now, I'm wondering if you were in one of those crazy spinning UFO type carnival rides where your pressed against the outside of the ride, if you shot a round, would it curve or hit the guy in front of you, or next to him, or would it just seize up in a black hole ordeal and not go anywhere Scratching head! lol (the visual alone on that is great!) Hurrah for a what 3rd or 4th edit. I call ninja!

 

[.zerocool.]

Holy hell rather than make that obsurdly long post longer of mine, I was browsing through google pics to look for that sight I mentioned and I found this. A curving bullet gun. Hmm. Kinda scary being I was just replying on it and a pic just popped up. I think my computer may be possessed now.

"Weapons - Army XM25 to debut

No hiding place from new U.S. Army rifles that use radio-controlled smart bullets. Weapon hailed as a game-changer that can fire up and over barriers and down into trenches. Soldiers will start using them in Afghanistan later this month

The U.S. army is to begin using a futuristic rifle that fires radio-controlled 'smart' bullets in Afghanistan for the first time, it has emerged. The XM25 rifle uses bullets that be programmed to explode when they have traveled a set distance, allowing enemies to be targeted no matter where they are hiding. The rifle also has a range of 2,300 feet making it possible to hit target which are well out of the reach of conventional rifles. The XM25 is being developed specially for the U.S. army and will be deployed with troops from later this month, it was revealed today.

The XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement System has a range of roughly 2,300 feet - and is to be deployed in Afghanistan this month."

Will link to the site if I can get the url back. Nooope aint happening. My browser is secure as a mountain bunker, and I can't remember the phrase I put into search. Sooo sorry to the sight I just clipped that from. If the creator of the quoted post dislikes, well, make your site easier to find next time


To add : In the end, it's not a curved bullet like you guys were thinking, it's relying on the downward curve and an explosion at a set point. Regardless, it fits the curved status IMO Loooooophole!

 

[WeedWacker]

What about pistols with "6-o'clock hold?" Wouldn't tiling it and utilizing the sights alter your POI vs POA? at 25 yards my XDm .45 shoots about 2"-4" high. Wouldn't it be shooting 2"-4" left at 25 yards if I held it sideways?

 

[Radium]

i shoot the gun with a slight tilt when shooting strong/weak hand only when facing the target.but normally if the target is 90 degrees to the side of my body.the tilt varies form ~45 degrees to 0 depending on where the target is.
my hand is in a more natural position that way.IMHO and i shoot better that way.

even when i shoot with the clubs accuracy airpistol i shoot it in a slight tilt. the gun isnt shaking that much from the tention that builds up holding it totally vertical.

But what do i know.

EDIT but i never shoot gansta style.execpt if im with my hipbreaking homeboy crew at the range and we just chill it out with mad dawg twennytwenny.(=never)

 

[Owen]

WeedWacker, the purpose of the kits I was talking about in free pistol was to rotate the sights around, so the sights would be in the normal orientation when the grip was canted.

The ball-jointed grips on air-pistols do the same thing, but they only cant over maybe 10 to 15 degrees.

 

[CZguy]

I always though that if you were shooting in the hollywood style, that it only worked if you wore your hat backward. That may be the reason why so many tests are unable to duplicate the inherent accuracy of movie shooting.

 

[1stmarine]

The most effective sideways shooting ever. You will see this in every IDPA match from now on....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eCCAAsLJeY&feature=related

Cheers,
E.

 

[royal barnes]

Great theories on sideways shooting! I always thought gangstas did it that way because that's how the gun came out of the box.

 

[.zerocool.]

HAHA royal. I almost fell out of my chair when I read that.

 

[lathedog]

I thought the sideways thing originated as more of a TV and movie thing so they could film from the front, down the muzzle, without obstructing the actor's face. Similar to movies where fighter pilots are flying without their oxygen masks secured. Notice in the original Battlestar Galactica the pilots had open face helmets with a lighting strip to make sure you could see the actor, whereas in reality it would blind them and not be so awesome if they lost cabin pressure. You can get the good dramatic framing for the scene without the big star complaining about "the audience won't be able to see me".

Next thing, people in real life are emulating art.

In training schools you shoot around obstacles, or from awkward positions on the ground, often with the gun sideways, as you are training for scenarios where you have been incapacitated or what have you. That is to train you to remember to not quit and to keep fighting more than to teach an effective method.

 

[1stmarine]

I am wondering how such question in this post can drive so much attention? Maybe so many people wondering if sideways is the way to go?

THE ANSWER IS NO!!!! THINK WHERE ARE THE SIGHTS FOR YOUR PISTOL, ON THE SIDE OF THE SLIDE OR ON THE TOP? HUMMM

 

[CZguy]

Great theories on sideways shooting! I always thought gangstas did it that way because that's how the gun came out of the box.

Good one. I'm still chuckling.

 

[blueridgerunner]

Hopefully I won't ever have to test this theory but, If the other guy is using the "gangsta'
method, he will probably miss, and I probably won't.

 

[9mm+]

It's interesting to note that there has been so much discussion about the validity of shooting sideways. If you're in a life-and-death struggle, you're going to shoot anyway you can -- sideways, upside down, whatever -- but given the time, any rational shooter would get the right sight picture and alignment with the gun held vertically. Most shooting errors yield shots that are higher or lower than the intended target. For defensive shooting, when your target is upright, you have more margin for error and can still get a good torso shot if the gun were held properly. If the gun were held horizontally, the margin for error is drastically less since you only have the width of the torso to work with.