When SPD brought a semiautomatic assault rifle to protest, what were they expecting

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Golly, what bologna...
I expect the local law-enforcement chaps to show up at any gathering of that many protesters with their standard arms in tow...To do otherwise is an invitation to trouble...
This idea that we are massively outgunned by the local police is pure BS...
 
So, you can have an AR-15 and feel you should be permitted to carry it anywhere (which I support), but not the cops? More any-port-in-a-storm anti-police BS. Some people need to get a life and forget the traffic ticket they got in high school.

It's not quite that clear-cut, Sir Galahad.

This is in a state where the peasantry may not own the weapons that were ostentatiously displayed by the police. Why are you surprised at the resentment some people feel when they're told that "ARs are for me, not for thee"? To top it all off, not only are the Californians told under threat of 10 years imprisonment that they may not own an AR, but they're also forced to pay for the ARs of their local PD...

It's quite ironic (and unsettling) that the "militarization of police" is usually most pronounced in the most gun-restrictive States.

The 1994 Crime Bill has a LEO exception, as do the California "assault weapons" laws. I can understand the anger some people feel when they're told that pistol-gripped autoloading rifles and >10 round magazines are evil and a no-no, and possession of these items will send you to the hoosegow for 10 years...unless you wear a badge.

When you deny the ownership and carrying of arms to one segment of the population while permitting it to another, you effectively create a two-class society. Don't be surprised if some people feel like the lower class they've been made into by legislative fiat...and if they start to resent the "upper class" and sometimes make generalizations.

I really wish every police officer in this country was like LawDog or our other resident LEO mods, but I know that for every LawDog there are three or four LEOs of all age groups who are perfectly comfortable with the idea that "only police should own/carry arms". Granted, those are usually native to regions where such a mindset has been actively supported by a nanny-like State government, but the fact remains that there are plenty of LEOs out there who fully support a caste system when it comes to gun ownership.

I have no issue with any LEO carrying any weapon they deem necessary for their job. I do take exception to chiefs arming their PDs with the use of tax money, and then openly supporting the restricting of those very arms to the average Joe out on the street.
 
This is in a state where the peasantry may not own the weapons that were ostentatiously displayed by the police. Why are you surprised at the resentment some people feel when they're told that "ARs are for me, not for thee"?

And that, my friends, is the heart of the problem.

2A is explicitly about the armament superiority of the People compared to the "standing army", which we may interpret to include "all armed agents of the State".


This extended interpretation is justified because organized, armed police forces are a relatively modern concept that did not exist at the time of the founding, and the army was a multi use force often applied to police purposes.

The intent of 2A was to provide the People with at least both theoretical and actual armament parity, if not superiority to the State.

Given the realities of modern mechanized, electronicised combat, the People haven't had even theoretical parity since WW I, and considering that the forces of darkness are trying to jumpstart a national debate* on semi-automatic firearms, which a mere 15 years ago was an unremarkable feature of firearm design, I can safely say that something has gone very badly wrong here.....





*a debate that wouldn't be possible without the AWB, btw, thank you very much, clinton.
 
1st Seattle riot- "The Police should have done more, the failed to be ready.....they didn't have enough presense....etc etc etc"

Now-"How come there are so many cops....why do they have gas, guns, barricades...."

The cops are in a loose loose situation. If things go to crap they "Weren't prepared". If they're prepared they are "JBT's"...:rolleyes:
 
Don van Blaricom, former police chief of Bellevue, says he's puzzled as to why police would turn out with an assault rifle at a protest. "That's certainly not a crowd-control weapon," says van Blaricom, who now is a law-enforcement consultant. "It's certainly not something you use on crowds. You'd want some intelligence to indicate persons in the crowd are likely to be armed, or I don't know why you'd use it."
Not a crowd control weapon? You wanna make a bet? Do you want to make an (deleted by moderator) bet???

And WHY would the police have and use them?

You see Don, liberals have a LONG track record of rioting and turning into destructive (murderous in some cases) mobs when they congregate in numbers.

With that in mind, YOU tell ME why the police would want such weapons around.

:rolleyes:

Idiot. :cuss:
 
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Did police even shoot into crowds during the civil rights protests of the mid to late 60's?

The last time I remember a battle rifle used for crowd control was kent state.

During the LA riots of 92 the police and national guard did little or nothing for crowd control, looting or arson.


A bunch of liberals with a protest permit marching against police militarization is not going to fit the bill for the use of lethal force
unless they turn into mutant flesh eating zombies.
 
A bunch of liberals with a protest permit marching against police militarization is not going to fit the bill for the use of lethal force
unless they turn into mutant flesh eating zombies.

You obviously missed all the stories of anti-"war" protests that turned into riots.

In SF those "liberals with a permit" started dragging people out of their cars, beating them up, trashing their cars, and otherwise rioting.

They confiscated hordes of weapons from the "harmless liberals with a permit" as well as finding a backpack full of molotov cocktails.

Yeah...that doesn't "fit the bill for use of lethal force."

:rolleyes:
 
I have no issue with any LEO carrying any weapon they deem necessary for their job. I do take exception to chiefs arming their PDs with the use of tax money, and then openly supporting the restricting of those very arms to the average Joe out on the street.
Thank you, lendringser. I couldn't have said it better.
 
Dr Jones

You are correct the protesters have done all these things
but the police don't use lethal force.

I've been following reports of violent protest in the US since
at least 1985 and I haven't seen a single report of police firing live ammo into a crowd of rioters.

What I meant to say was: What is the trigger for cops to use an AR 15 on a crowd?

What does it take for the cops to consider firing at a protest gone bad?

From what I've seen the bar must be really high.
 
I'm certainly in favor of police having such weapons available. The wisdom of carrying them to a demonstration escapes me unless you just want to bash folks who excercise their 1st Amend. rights. Yes, the cops took a risk that maybe someone would open up from the crowd with an UZI or two. That's part of life.

The militarization of law enforcement gave us Waco and Ruby Ridge.

Such weapons should be save for the extreme and not used to intimidate free speech.
 
OK

I guess the difference is ... is it a peaceful protest? Or are they looting stores/trashing cars/beating-killing people? ARE they openly saying F you to the police who are trying to control them, knowing its a losing battle when its 5000 against even 200... Whens the last time you went up to a policeman and spit in his face? I'd be willing to bet never. I mean A - its stupid :D B - its not right. That person who did that - prolly got what she was after... the same thing i'd get if i walked up to billy bob bad butt and spit in his face... a good whoopin. :evil:

Ya know i've got my own dislikes for police... but for the most part they are good guys who are just trying to do thier job... and I have to tell you that if i was a policeman, i'd be scared as hell at the people in front of me causing random rash distruction, distruction to property and persons that are not thiers. aka - against the law, i'd be willing to bet the founders wouldn't take to kindly to the actions either. One of my friends said the riots in LA could have been done so much quicker if ya saw cops pop one or two of em. Instead you had people being drug out of thier cars that had nothing to do w/ anything, they just happened to be near the area.

Police are given arms in order to use them during the time of thier duty to enforce laws. I'm not sure how they are more "militarized", last time i checked there wasn't a whole lot a rifle could do to a tank, or the last time i saw a civilian w/ the training of the special forces. The constitution gives us the right to be armed... as it should be. By the same token, our tax dollars go to police to police our streets and highways and etc... Would you want them any less armed than you??!?!

bleh - i blather again
 
But the issue with the militarization of federal LE is that they DO have access to tanks, attack copters and other military vehicles. If I remember correctly, the ATF nearly got a couple of Ospreys for its inventory. On a local level, I have only seen the APC's active when there is a perceived threat. About a ten days ago, rumor has it we were about to be in for some rioting like they're having in Michigan. At the time, the city was SWARMED with tourists for an annual music festival. The city PD here brought out tac units, a couple of paddy wagons, and their APC. In my view, this was rational.
 
So if one guy in the crowd fires a weapon the guy with the full-auto simply opens up in his direction and if 30 people are killed -- so what.

Perhaps we should hear what the antis have to say about this as they always bring up the "spray-fire" argument.

VPC Study Explains Assault Weapons' Spray-Fire Design

From http://www.vpc.org/studies/hoseone.htm

6. Civilian assault weapons keep the specific functional design features that make this deadly spray-firing easy. These functional features also distinguish assault weapons from traditional sporting guns.

8. "Spray-firing" from the hip, a widely recognized technique for the use of assault weapons in certain combat situations, has no place in civil society. Although assault weapon advocates claim that "spray-firing" and shooting from the hip with such weapons is never done, numerous sources (including photographs and diagrams) show how the functional design features of assault weapons are used specifically for this purpose.

From: http://www.vpc.org/studies/hosethree.htm

Assault weapons did not "just happen." They were developed to meet specific combat needs. All assault weapons—military and civilian alike—incorporate specific features that were designed to provide a specific military combat function. That military function is laying down a high volume of fire over a wide killing zone, also known as "hosing down" an area. Civilian assault weapons keep the specific design features that make this deadly spray-firing easy. These features also distinguish assault weapons from traditional sporting firearms.

Apparently they see no problem with the cops "spray-firing" or "hosing down" a crowd. They only have a problem with anyone else who, in their imagination, might do so.
 
jimpeel:

With reference to items that you posted, is one to assume that "civilian assault weapons" are also SELECTIVE FIRE WEAPONS, which is the defining characteristic of real assault weapons? This appears to be what those nice folks over at the VPC are saying.

Of course, "assault weapons" didn't just happen, they were designed/developed for particular purposes, based on the experience of military organizations. Assault Weapons, at least the military type, provided under the ageis of THE GOVERNMENT, do incorporate one specific feature, selective fire capability, something that is conspiciously absent in the "civilian assault weapon", that the VPC and it's fellow travellers have so much to say regarding.
 
The links were clear -- perhaps I wasn't.

The first one addresses:
Bullet Hoses Documents History of Assault Weapons, Shows That Widely Available Civilian Assault Weapons Incorporate Specific Military Design Features for "Laying Down a High Volume of Fire Over a Wide Killing Zone"
Washington, DC - The Violence Policy Center (VPC) today released a new study, Bullet Hoses: Semiautomatic Assault Weapons -- What Are They?

The second and third are to the same page and address:
Semiautomatic Assault Weapons—What Are They? What's So Bad About Them?

They know the difference between semi and full auto. They simply want you to think that there is no difference.

Since the police are using MP-5's etc for routine patrols I assumed that this guy would also have a full-auto firearm. See http://www.hkpro.com/hkaction8.htm for the following pictures.

action8mcyclemp5.jpg

CAPTION: Here's something that you don't see every day, especially on a motorcycle, and especially in California. Torrance, California motor officer with MP5SF riding "subgun." Paul Hern photo.

action8mcyclemp5s.jpg

CAPTION: Another shot of the motor officers from Torrance, California. Though not plainly visible on this photo, far right officer has MP5A5 with burst trigger group, while officer in the middle has MP5SF. I would venture a guess that some officers are SWAT, and have select-fire. Paul Hern photo.
 
f she spit on the guy, she deserved to have her ??? beat. Uncalled for. Militarization of police is getting to be a problem, but it's idiots like her that make it worse.

As I stated, the source article is the Seattle Weekly. Its an extremely slanted view of one side of the incident.
 
sw442642:
lendringser:
HBK:
.45Ruger:

There is no militarism of the police in America.
See my post on "why do we allow militarism" where the word militarism [ in particular paramilitary ]is defined and then explained why the police can not be defined as such.

The swat types came first, the military took their urban techniques from the domestic training developed by swat units.

To think the cops have become a paramilitary unit or mindset would have to presume they got their tactics and training from the mil types, but it reality, it's the other way around.

Brownie
 
Tamara, if the "you" fits, wear it. If not, don't. The "you" refers to the same people I see showing up at EVERY co-bash thread with the same remarks. My "editorial" stands. You asked, I answered. Don't see the need to interpret.
 
jimpeel:

You are right, the links are clear, possibly I should have read through them before posting.

What it seemingly boils down to is the following. If it goes BANG, the VPC and similar organizations will find something about it to complain over. The rate of fire is to high, therefore inaccurate. Next will come a ban on those deadly accurate, slow firing bolt action rifles. Then some are to large, while others are to small. Then comes the fact that gun fire is to loud, or if "silenced", isn't loud enough, and when almost all is said and done, they are either to powerful, or not sufficiently powerful. There is simply no pleasing those people.

Actually I got a good laugh at their reference to "minor differences" between the M-16 service arm, and the AR-15 commercial semi-automatic rifle, where the former has selective fire capability, and therefore is a machinegun, while the latter doesn't and therefore isn't.

As to the lies of the gun industry, and the cosmetic changes VPC criticizes, essentially the problem that VPC has is that the gun makers didn't vanish during the night. Next day, when the sun rose, they the gun makers, were still there. Of course, even more interesting is their reference to "cosmetic changes". Given that VPC seems to admit that the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban dealt with cosmeic features, they being defined as non-functional considerations, exactly what did they expect gun makers who wished to continue to serve a particular market to do, other than to make such cosmetic changes as would satisfy the requirements of the law?

Actually, I do believe that you are correct, respecting your observation to the effect that VPC operates on the basis that people do not know the difference between full automatic and semi-automatric fire capability.

The term "cyclic rate of fire", used to get a large play from the anti-gunners, though it isn't much heard these days. Of course, this might be due to the fact that many people began to recognize what the term cyclic rate ment, a theoretical rate of fire, assuming an unnbroken supply of ammunition. Given that even a belt fed machine gun exhausts the cartridges in it's ammunition belt, which has to be replaced, cyclic rate of fire, and actually attainable rates of fire are two different animals. This becomes especially obvious, perhaps even interesting, when one realizes that magazines have to be changed. Of course, one might then consider the concept known as "aimed fire", which really slows things down, but that is another thing altogether.

In-so-far as you might be aware, has anyone ever determined the "cyclic rate of fire" attainable from the bolt action rifle, assuming that one could ignore operator fatigue, and that arrangements for a continuous supply of ammunition were made?
 
Alan:
Your last question should be a survey.

I remember an Amtrak employee at counter-sniper training who could beat a semi auto PSG-1 in shots fired accurately on plates at 100 meters/scoped of course.

The number would be high I think.

Brownie
 
The Warren Commission determined that Lee Harvey Oswald could acuarately fire three rounds in 5.6 seconds. Of course "zero" was set by the first round fired so, in reality, he fired two accurate shots in that time frame. This extrapolates to a little over 21 (21.428571428571428571428571428571 approximately ;) ) rounds per minute.

See http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id180.htm for a dissertation on this cyclic rate of fire.
 
jimpeel:

Wonder if the fact that Oswald was firing Arlen Specters "magic bullets" had anything to do with the seemingly high attained rate of fire, particularly with a p.o.s. rifle like he used?

Thank you for the link. I'll get to reading it later.
 
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