When were Model 10's plus p rated?

[ArchAngelCD]

Yes that fellow Saxon Pig who wrote the article post over on TFL but I haven't seen him in a while. But he knows what he is talking about.

Last time he was on this forum was May of 2015, not a good sign. Not good at all.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

What I do: The Outdoorsman load listed by Buffalo Arms runs 1250 fps with 158 grain bullet. That similar to the old 38/44 load. Their +P load with the same bullet runs 1000 fps. There is nothing bad about standard 38 Special loads. I stick to the tame stuff in my K frame Smith's save a Model 19. If I want to shoot hot loads I have a perfectly fine Model 28 Smith. Personally, I'd have no problem shooting some +P's in my 38 Specials. Those super heavy loads there would be no way. One of my guns is designed for those 1250 fps loads. I'm not going there in a revolver nearly eighty years old. I also suggest you taking a look for a Smith Model 15 or 67. These are K frame 38 Specials with adjustable sighs.

 

[Gun Master]

No offense intended, but maybe the OP should have been retitled, " When Was +P Ammo Reduced to the Current Power Level ?"

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Could you elaborate? I recall a time when published information on pressure and velocity were pretty raggedy. Maybe, I'm missing the mark here but seems like when factory charges were downloaded it had to do with improved instruments for measuring pressure?

 

[Lucky Derby]

As I said, I'm being overly cautious. I have plenty of newer guns where I'm sure of the heat treatment. Really I just have no reason to take the (All be it slight) risk.

 

[ThomasT]

Last time he was on this forum was May of 2015, not a good sign. Not good at all.

He post more over on thefiringline forum. And like a lot of people he cycles in and out. Some just go away and never come back. You can always tell when you are reading a zombie thread because of all the replies from people you don't know or folks you had forgotten about.

NewCould you elaborate? I recall a time when published information on pressure and velocity were pretty raggedy. Maybe, I'm missing the mark here but seems like when factory charges were downloaded it had to do with improved instruments for measuring pressure?

I seem to remember reading some of the pressured were lowed for the less strong J-Frame sized guns. But thats going on my shakey memory. And now you can buy J-Frame sized guns in 357 magnum. And the +P was developed to use in stronger guns and more of a sales gimmick. Just look how many will pick a box of factory rifle loads or choose the hottest load in a reloading manual all based on an extra 50FPS. A meaningless difference when accuracy is far more important. And that was the point made in the link I posted. The +P is really not +P. Its at best a real 38 Special load and sometimes not even that good.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Personal Observation...not looking for a fight. I kinda got interested in factory loads for 38 Special before the time of +P's. Checked out Remington's offering in a 1967 Gun Digest. Looks like I could have bought 38 Special cartridges with performance levels same as our +P's. The figures were for factory 158gr. lead bullets. My feeling is that much of +P is marketing. Could somebody be making water on our leg and telling us it's raining? Then or now I'd not make a habit of regularly shooting +P in my 38 Special K frames.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I seriously doubt the quoted velocity figures from early material.
Prior to mid-90’s, portable chronographs were a rarity. Velocities were anybody’s guess.
Most of today’s velocity figures are lower because they represent “real world” results. Not extrapolation of empirical laboratory data.

A .38spl firing a 158gr HP-SWC at 900fps is a substantial load and exceeds the current popular 147gr 9mm loadings.

Quoted velocities for .357magnum w/158gr SWC back in early ‘70’s were on the order of 1,500fps. These figures were for 8-3/8” or even 10” barrels. Current figures are for 4”barrels taken from firing of random selection of production ammo. Nominal velocity is 1,200fps.

Side note: I’ve found the 158gr .38’s loaded to ~775fps to be generally more accurate than the warmer stuff.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Always use Current Data: The above points about performance figures are accurate. Low cost chronographs made honest folks out there. I recall in the day when we had a Ohler 33 chronograph-state of the art. One wildcatter disputed the figures contended his velocity numbers came from a different machine. The story went around that he traded that previously successful varmint rifle off. However, not all figures out were from Cloud Cuckoo Land. I recall test equipment to duplicate cylinder gap. Data testing gear was included in some manuals The 1950's NRA manual may have been the first to give accurate pressure and velocity figures. Old time loads for 38 Special were skewed by 38/44. Those 38/44 loads were nuclear in any day. There are many shooters who are freaks for velocity without regard to accuracy. I have learned that 38 Special loads with 2.5 grains of Bullseye using a 148gr flat based WC will shoot great in my Model 19. That's the max for my 1953 vintage Combat Master Piece. That's were it's at. Here, the compulsion to shoot heavy loads is put in remission with N frames. Also, use current reloading data..

 

[ThomasT]

Personal Observation...not looking for a fight. I kinda got interested in factory loads for 38 Special before the time of +P's. Checked out Remington's offering in a 1967 Gun Digest. Looks like I could have bought 38 Special cartridges with performance levels same as our +P's. The figures were for factory 158gr. lead bullets. My feeling is that much of +P is marketing. Could somebody be making water on our leg and telling us it's raining? Then or now I'd not make a habit of regularly shooting +P in my 38 Special K frames.

Finally, Somebody who gets it. And those early specs for 357 loads that went 1550fps were accurate from a long barreled gun. And the lead bullet loads reportedly leaded barrels like crazy. But a 158gr 38 special going 900+fps is an easy thing to do. From a 6" barrel That same load will still get 850+fps from a 4" barrel. These are the speeds from the earlier mentioned S&B RN lead loads that I have shot and were also mentioned in the link I posted. And they are not +P loads. And those are the speeds the original 38 special was loaded to when it replaced the 38 Long Colt.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

I remember getting some 357 Remington factory cartridges with lead bullets. These rounds were to be shot in a brand new stainless Blackhawk. Everything worked out great until cleaning time. You needed an ice pick to get the lead out of the entire barrel. That would have been in the 1970's. I know Remington had chronographs in the 1930's. Remington had tested Ned Roberts new cartridge in the developmental stages. The wild and crazy numbers we are discussing may have come from the fertile minds the advertising department (s).

 

[ThomasT]

The wild and crazy numbers we are discussing may have come from the fertile minds the advertising department (s).

In one of the Guns and Ammo articles Jan Libourel tested some of the original 357 loads and they did indeed get around 1550fps from a long barreled revolver. But I bet there have been some optimistic velocities posted by ammo companies in the past. The problem is guns can vary so much with the same barrel lengths when test ammo that I have seen a 100fps spread difference in velocity. A loose bore and larger barrel gap will really change bullet speeds.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

I'm more likely to load up some Sketter Skelton 44 Spl @ 1000 fps with 250 cast bullet. These are for my antique Model 29 Smith or my 624. Heavy 44 There's one aspect of reloading that's great. The handloader is in charge of QC. I have a great choice of bullets for 38 Special bullets. Right now I can duplicate most commonly loaded factory bullets from the old days. The exception is the 200 gr. Super Police bullet. It's necessary to mooch those from a friend. I can work up a safe load and be able to duplicate this load at will time after time. Hope are that will consider reloading. If anybody does any shooting the payback will come quickly. This payback is faster with a rifle. Some of that stuff I shoot runs $100.00 a box of twenty retail..

Addendum: I'm not sure about the 1550 fps from orginal 357 Mag ammo. Phil Sharpe, who invented the cartridge reported 1655 fps with a 146 gr. bullet. With a 158gr. factory lead bullet his data gave tops of 1335 fps. Did the G&A article happen to share the bullet the author was shooting? Sharpe's data does not look wild and crazy. He did report some higher velocity numbers on experimental rounds. The original 357 magnum rounds, according to Sharp were loaded with a non-canister 2400. His handgun used in his data had an eight and three quarter inch barrel.