Which big bore rifle/cartridge for subsonic hunting

[m0par]

I'd also suggest the 458 socom.

Something to consider (if it was already mentioned, I missed it) are the hunting regs in your area. Nebraska, for example, has a minimum power level requirement for rifles--900ftlbs at 100yds. That's a level that only a heavy (>400gr) bullet will achieve at subsonic speeds. But, they also make exceptions for 357 magnum and 45LC rifles. No mention of 44mag though.

 

[HankB]

AR platform in .458Socom . . .

Why not go all the way to .50 Beowulf?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNCWd9UY8pc

 

[CraigC]

I like the 45-70 and think it may be hard to beat due to the weight it can throw.

IMHO, the .45-70 is really tough to justify for suppressor use on deer/hogs/black bear. Way too much case capacity that can make things problematic. Yeah, you can sling a really heavy bullet but it's completely unnecessary for the task at hand. When a 250gr will fully penetrate any deer that walks, a 500gr won't do the job any better. The .44Mag (or .45ACP, or .45Colt) fits the bill perfectly.

I learned the hard way that moving a front sight back doesn't always work out, especially if the barrel it tapered.

Shouldn't be an issue at all.

These are more or less what I've been envisioning as a perfect subsonic deer bullets:

275gr
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.ph...roducts_id=316

300gr
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.ph...roducts_id=285

Those should work fine.

I think I'm leaning towards the Ruger 77/44, with a Liberty Cosmic as the suppressor. That way if I want to eventually get a .458 Socom upper, I could play with .458 subs as well. I wonder if it is possible to get the Ruger barrel shortened to 16", and then have a front sight added back that would work with a rear peep... Probably just easier to slap a scope or red dot on.

Sounds like a plan to me. Shortening the barrel shouldn't be a problem. Would have to just use a screw-on front sight base. Not sure if you'll be able to see the sights over the suppressor though. Might be better to use a red dot or low powered variable like the Weaver 1-3x.

 

[Gtscotty]

I'd also suggest the 458 socom.

Something to consider (if it was already mentioned, I missed it) are the hunting regs in your area. Nebraska, for example, has a minimum power level requirement for rifles--900ftlbs at 100yds. That's a level that only a heavy (>400gr) bullet will achieve at subsonic speeds. But, they also make exceptions for 357 magnum and 45LC rifles. No mention of 44mag though.

I hadn't actually explicitly checked this, but it looks like 300gr .44 would qualify under either the diameter + cartridge length requirement, or the 500 ft-lb @ 100 yd requirement in Wy, for deer, so I'd be doubly legal. Also, as far as I can tell I'd be ok in most other states I might hunt, like TN, GA and SC. Really this setup would be limited to doe/meat hunts, if I'm going after sizable bucks or anything bigger, or where I'll want to shoot further, I'll be taking an '06 or .270.

 

[Gtscotty]

Why not go all the way to .50 Beowulf?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNCWd9UY8pc

If won't work with a .45 suppressor. All 50 cal suppressors I've found are quite large and won't work on Pistols.

 

[hq]

If won't work with a .45 suppressor. All 50 cal suppressors I've found are quite large and won't work on Pistols.

How about just drilling out the suppressor with an appropriate size bit? I can't even count how many suppressors I've enlarged, .22(3) -> .243 -> .25 -> .270 -> 308/311 -> .338 -> .35 -> .38 -> .40 -> .429 -> .45 -> .50... Just make sure that the internal volume is large enough for the gas of the caliber in question to expand without venting at high pressure and you'll be fine.

 

[Gordon]

If it is done right I like integral.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4f/4f/00/4f4f00d712763befe8e4a8f5fc0fa563.jpg

 

[bldsmith]

I have the 458 also. 2 of them as a matter of fact. A 16" and a 10.5". Yes they are harder to suppress than a 556 but not much harder than a 44mag. Easier to put a suppressor on an AR15. There are several companies making expanding subsonic bullets for it also. But with a 458 cal round if you get a pass through in the vitals you really don't need expansion.

 

[CraigC]

How about just drilling out the suppressor with an appropriate size bit?

In the US, suppressors are too expensive and the process to get them too involved to chance ruining one trying to drill it out.

Don't need a .50 to kill deer anyway.

 

[hq]

In the US, suppressors are too expensive and the process to get them too involved to chance ruining one trying to drill it out.

Don't need a .50 to kill deer anyway.

Properly centered lathe does it easily and precisely. I wouldn't recommend a drill press, regardless of how cheap or expensive the suppressor is. Of course you don't need a large diameter wound channel, but when we're talking about subsonic impact velocities there won't be much of a velocity-induced hydrodynamic shock. Which means that even after a good lung shot the animal can run long distances before the blood pressure drops enough for it to lose consciousness. Larger diameter wound channel == much faster blood loss, other factors being equal. Even many .45ACP SD loads have a combination of enough penetration and expansion to accomplish this quite effectively.

 

[CraigC]

When you said "drill", I didn't take that to indicate with a lathe.

I've been hunting with handguns for three decades, you're not going to tell me anything I don't already know. This is a well traveled trail, it's just that a lot of rifle hunters have never bothered to learn this sort of thing before they decided to hunt with a suppressed big bore. Big, heavy bullets at moderate velocities are a staple for handgun hunting. No, you're not going to get any hydrostatic shock and instant incapacitation at subsonic velocities but big bullets work well and with boring regularity.

 

[BCRider]

In a thread about looking for softer "plinking loads" for a .44Mag it was pointed out to me that my pet load that shoots a 240gn LRNFP bullet at around 1000 to 1050 fps would penetrate front to back through a horse.

So you might want to take into consideration that you may not require a 300gn bullet to do what you're thinking of doing. And that opens up the option of a proper full pressure .45Colt load into this equation. It also opens up the idea of something like an Encore or Contender in .454 Casull that is loaded down to subsonic velocity and running a 280gn bullet or the like.

Also consider the idea of a wide meplate face instead of worrying over whether or not a hollow point will expand. It may be that you'll get more consistent results if you're shooting scale cast bullets that look like small oil drums instead of anything that has a significant rounding of the nose.

 

[Swampman]

How about just drilling out the suppressor with an appropriate size bit? I can't even count how many suppressors I've enlarged, .22(3) -> .243 -> .25 -> .270 -> 308/311 -> .338 -> .35 -> .38 -> .40 -> .429 -> .45 -> .50... Just make sure that the internal volume is large enough for the gas of the caliber in question to expand without venting at high pressure and you'll be fine.

Unfortunately, in the US it's illegal to change the caliber of a suppressor unless you refile the paperwork and buy another $200 tax stamp.

In any case, the OP indicated that he's only interested in harvesting meat deer and that he'd carry a .270 or '06 for larger animals.

A .44 Special or .45 Colt with a decent size meplat makes a big enough hole and lets out enough blood to reliably kill any whitetail deer ever born if shots are well placed and ranges kept reasonable.

They may not be DRT, but the blood trail will likely be short, thick and easy to follow.

 

[pintler]

Just FWIW, the 444 Marlin has a 1:20 twist, the same as the 77/44, and uses 44Mag diameter bullets. That would let you use expanding 44 Special bullets at subsonic speeds, or heaver supersonics if you want to hunt something bigger.

I'd guess the extra case capacity doesn't help when you're suppressing subsonics, but if you like levers it's an option.

 

[IWAC]

.416 double rifle! Sure is subsonic after you light it off!

 

[fireman 9731]

I like a medium-light load of Trailboss behind a 405gr cast bullet in my 32in barreled 45-70. I don't have a suppressor, and its no louder than a 22, maybe even more quiet.

 

[Ed Ames]

I have a Bowers Vers .458 silencer, and two Brazilian m92s in .454 casull, one 16" barrel the other 20". Whenever I finish dithering about which m92 to have butchered I expect to have some fun with the results.

Unfortunately the brazilian M92s run 30" twist, but even with that my calculations say I should be stable running at least some designs of 400gr bullets below 1000fps. At 1100fps they will have over 1000fpe at the muzzle and stay subsonic. I do wish it had a faster twist though.

I spoke to Bowers before I bought the silencer and it is OK with full house .454 casull loads too, so I will not be limited to subsonic.

 

[CraigC]

A 1-30" twist probably won't stabilize a 400gr bullet at subsonic velocities but as far as I know, the .454's should have a faster twist than that. Probably the industry standard 1-24".

 

[Ed Ames]

The only info I can find consistently says all Braztec m92 clones share a 30" twist. Unfortunately mine are a few states over at the moment so I can't measure. Maybe when I get home.

As for stabilizing a 400gr, I took the specs for a 400gr gas checked lead bullet and entered them into an online calculator, assuming 30" twist, 1000fps, 59f, 29.92 pressure, etc., and got a Miller stability index of 1.9, with 1.5 claimed as the lower safe threshold for stability. So...unless I did something wrong or the calculator is broken it should be possible with some bullets. Not all, but some. In theory.

I haven't gone over 360gr myself with those guns so I can't do any real chest thumping about it.

 

[hq]

When you said "drill", I didn't take that to indicate with a lathe.

I've been hunting with handguns for three decades, you're not going to tell me anything I don't already know. This is a well traveled trail, it's just that a lot of rifle hunters have never bothered to learn this sort of thing before they decided to hunt with a suppressed big bore. Big, heavy bullets at moderate velocities are a staple for handgun hunting. No, you're not going to get any hydrostatic shock and instant incapacitation at subsonic velocities but big bullets work well and with boring regularity.

There's always *some* hydrodynamic (often erroneously called hydrostatic, in spite of context of rapid movement - instead of just pressure variation - of near non-compressible fluids) shock, which is a function of impact velocity, momentum and bullet frontal area. Lack of velocity can only be compensated to a small degree with other two, of course.

As I see it, maximizing the diameter of wound channel yet still having sufficient penetration is the second best alternative, meaning very heavy, large diameter bullets that expand as much as possible without grinding to a premature stop in tissues. A cast 1000gr 12ga hollow point slug at just over 1000fps from a suppressed shotgun would IMO be pretty much ideal for deer-sized and even slightly larger game at moderate distances.

 

[CraigC]

There's always *some* hydrodynamic (often erroneously called hydrostatic, in spite of context of rapid movement - instead of just pressure variation - of near non-compressible fluids) shock, which is a function of impact velocity, momentum and bullet frontal area. Lack of velocity can only be compensated to a small degree with other two, of course.

Call it whatever you want. There's not enough of it at subsonic velocities to matter. Handgun hunters learned this a long time ago and figured out that diameter and mass make up the difference.

A cast 1000gr 12ga hollow point slug at just over 1000fps from a suppressed shotgun would IMO be pretty much ideal for deer-sized and even slightly larger game at moderate distances.

You don't need a bullet anywhere near that big. A 250gr .44 or .45 will do the trick nicely.

 

[hq]

Call it whatever you want.

I prefer calling it what it actually is, according to standardized terminology of fluid dynamics. Like I already mentioned, projectile velocity is the major factor but the temporary, pressure-inflicted wound cavity can easily exceed the diameter of the bullet by twofold at subsonic velocities, so I wouldn't go as far as claiming that it doesn't matter.

You don't need a bullet anywhere near that big. A 250gr .44 or .45 will do the trick nicely.

Sorry about not explaining the principle in detail. It leans more towards the age-old adage of "bring enough gun" than downing a moose with a .22 through the eye, if an extreme example of the opposite defining the bare minimum of "need" helps clarifying this. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a .45, it'll suffice nicely for whitetail in most situations. A .73" slug with four times as much momentum just allows you to confidently take shots that wouldn't be ethical or even possible with a lesser projectile at identical impact velocity and gives you better odds in any situation, which hardly can be regarded as a drawback.

Whether it's worth having to cast your own slugs, handload the shells and have a custom suppressor made for a shotgun is debatable, of course. The best case scenario equipment-wise needs some effort.

 

[CraigC]

I wouldn't go as far as claiming that it doesn't matter.

At normal handgun velocities, it doesn't matter. Not until you get somewhere nearing 2000fps does it become a factor.

It leans more towards the age-old adage of "bring enough gun" than downing a moose with a .22 through the eye, if an extreme example of the opposite defining the bare minimum of "need" helps clarifying this. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a .45, it'll suffice nicely for whitetail in most situations. A .73" slug with four times as much momentum just allows you to confidently take shots that wouldn't be ethical or even possible with a lesser projectile at identical impact velocity and gives you better odds in any situation, which hardly can be regarded as a drawback.

Again, this is a well traveled trail. A 250gr hardcast SWC or LBT at 900-1000fps from a .44 or .45 will fully penetrate any deer that walks from end to end. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. A 12ga slug is not going to kill them any deader. The .44/.45 will also penetrate deeper, which makes it MORE appropriate for less than ideal shots compared to a slug. Over the last half century, .44 and .45 caliber handguns have been used to take the largest game on earth. Why would we need more for whitetail???

You rifle shooters are just now learning what we handgun hunters have known for decades.

 

[hq]

Again, this is a well traveled trail. A 250gr hardcast SWC or LBT at 900-1000fps from a .44 or .45 will fully penetrate any deer that walks from end to end. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. A 12ga slug is not going to kill them any deader. The .44/.45 will also penetrate deeper, which makes it MORE appropriate for less than ideal shots compared to a slug.

A lot has been done by someone at one point or another. I've shot through a number of game animals, including lengthwise and Texas heart shots, which is little more than using grotesque levels of overpenetration to your advantage in an unusual situation. That doesn't make them any better in the vast majority of shots when sufficient penetration with a maximum volume and diameter of wound channel is the key to rapid loss of blood pressure ie. consciousness. Which is what you really want.

As far as the actual potential for maximum (over)penetration is concerned, try casting a 2.3oz 12ga slug of high linotype content lead, shoot it at 1200-ish fps and see for yourself. Commercial slugs are a far cry from what can easily be achieved with handloads and having way too much penetration is by far a more common problem than not having enough of it. CNC'ing an overweight mold and turning the slugs into hollow points in a lathe to desired weight and shape is the easiest way to cope with the problem.

Oh, by the way, I've hunted with handguns as well as subsonic ammunition for the best part of last three decades or so, which is just another subjective point and doesn't change the laws of physics in any way. It doesn't make lighter bullets penetrate further than heavy ones, it doesn't change the basic formula of sectional density and it doesn't make hydrodynamic shock magically disappear altogether.

 

[CraigC]

Sectional density is exactly what slugs have working against them. I've tested the vaunted Brenneke Black Magic and it fell well short of the penetration afforded by heavy revolver loads.

...try casting a 2.3oz 12ga slug of high linotype content lead, shoot it at 1200-ish fps and see for yourself.

And why would you have to beat yourself up with that load to kill deer? Sorry but a three quarter inch diameter slug is just unnecessary for whitetail.