Which Carry Position Is Fastest....?

[Chris Rhines]

We concluded this, did we?

Yeah, we kinda did.

Really people. Everyone needs to get off this quick draw mcgraw kick. This isn't the old west, and nobody ever squared off at high noon.

I hope that you're not trying to use mockery as a way of excusing poor performance. There's too much of that on the internet.

These fractions matter only when all other things are equal, when in fact as a defender, odds are really good that your first participation in the conflict will be at a disadvantage.

If you are starting out behind the power curve, so to speak, a fast draw is more important, not less. Those fractions of a second might represent incoming bullets, and I'd prefer to deal with as few of those as possible.

I don't ever want to hear about a single one of y'all getting shot because you drew rather than MOVED YOUR BUTT.

Come on, dude. Moving and drawing are not mutually exclusive - I was practicing that last night. Furthermore, moving alone is not going to end the threat. Drawing and shooting is a big part of the equation, and denying that or downplaying the importance of it is really, really foolish.

-C

 

[geekWithA.45]

OKaaay then.

Drawing and shooting is a big part of the equation, and denying that or downplaying the importance of it is really, really foolish.

Chris, I pretty clearly stated in my 2nd paragraph that a certain minimum of proficiency is called for. The realities of concealed carry equipment really do impose practical limits on draw speed that are part of that proficiency. What I'm saying is that having achieved the proficiency that is reasonable under the circumstances, there are other factors in the encounter that will have a greater impact on the outcome than pure draw speed alone.

What I don't want is a bunch of inexperienced people reading this board to walk away thinking that blazing fast trick show draws alone are going to render them invincible in the real world. That's the kind of thinking that will lead folks to try to push a bad position thinking their speed will save them, when they really should be doing something else to prevail.

As for your assertions and insinuations that I'm denying or downplaying the ability to draw and shoot, using mockery to excuse poor performance, etc, that's a crap sandwich you made. It's yours, you can keep it.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Okay, fair enough. So you do agree that speed, or at least quality, of presentation is of some importance. My apologies for asserting otherwise.

What I don't want is a bunch of inexperienced people reading this board to walk away thinking that blazing fast trick show draws alone are going to render them invincible in the real world.

I'm at a loss here. Did anyone, at any point in this thread, imply this? Because I went and looked and came up empty.

When I go to the local public range, the problems that I see are people who either don't practice the drawstroke at all, or who have a drawstroke that can be measured with a sun dial. Moving off the line of attack, seizing the initiative, and forcing your opponent to react to you is not going to help much if the 'Act' part of your OODA loop takes five or six seconds to get going.

*shrug* Take from this whatever you like.

-C

 

[geekWithA.45]

5 or 6 seconds is too darned long.

We're probably more in agreement than not. I'll chalk the friction up to the vagaries of having a verbal conversation via the 'net.

 

[smince]

I agree with the 'moving offline' 100%.

But I also agree with a fast draw.

I have been able to generally have my gun out and firing after a step and a half off line (and keep moving while shooting).

It has been practiced often in the Force-On-Force drills and scenarios in various classes I've attended. Doing it against a stationary cardboard target is one thing; against another person is something different.

 

[Rexster]

I consider where my arms hang to be 0300 and 0900. When standing, these positions, to a bit more forward, are fastest for each hand, for me, about 0130-0300 and 0900 to 1030. My default primary carry position is 0300, simply because my police duty holster rides there, and I want consistency. (Yes, I am a lefty, but I am also complicated. Pulling a trigger is caveman simple, so my left hand is available for really important stuff.)

 

[ChCx2744]

I find 12:30/1:00 is fastest, then 3:00 then 4:00/4:30. This may sound odd, but I carry 12:30 in a very thin level 2 button strap holster with the strap tucked behind the rear leather flap, it helps me draw VERY fast. The only downside to how I carry is that the barrel is always pointing at my baby maker (But the trigger is completely covered! ) and when I go to a buffet or grandma's house and I get so full it starts to hurt my gut...Then I just transfer it to 4:00 haha

 

[RyanAcuff]

I carry appendix inside the waist band in a Dale Fricke holster.

A Glock 19 or my Glock 21.

 

[Ryder]

I'll go with pocket carry, since one can have his hand on the gun in a very covert manner.

Same thing for cross draw, only difference being you don't need a mouse gun to do it. You can in fact have the gun out of the holster pointing at your intended target while it is still covered. Not much is quicker than simply pullling the trigger... Of course I haven't practiced shooting holes in my jacket yet

 

[LAK]

IMO 5 o'clock behind the hip, or crossdraw at about 11.

At 3 on the hip cramps the arm some; once in hand a presentation can be made as fast from the 5 position as from the 3 o'clock position.

---------------------------

Je Suis Prest

 

[smince]

I carry appendix inside the waist band in a Dale Fricke holster.

A Glock 19 or my Glock 21.

Welcome, Ryan.

Great choice of gear there

 

[Creature]

..."slow is smooth, smooth is fast". I am not so concerned about speed as I am about getting right the first time, especially since I carry IWB and have to move a shirt or jacket with my offhand in order to draw.

 

[Tinman357]

My personal choice after many years of CCW is 10:00 cross draw. Not only does it conceal better there and is more suited to my work situation and lifestyle but it's more comfortable as well.

I practice the draw/dry fire regularly with no intent to getting faster but more for smoothness. Speed comes naturally with familiarity.

It's not for everybody but it does work for me. Find what works best for you in your situation. Getting advice and opinions is a smart and responsible thing to do but when the time comes to "Do or die" none of us will be there, you will prevail or not solely on your own merit.

Be open minded to the advice of others. Listen to and learn from the mistakes of others, you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

 

[NMGonzo]

Depends ... appendix most of the time, crossdraw some times.

 

[Erik]

Which is the fastest? Presumably from concealment? From a variety of positions? Appendix carry.

 

[Comedian]

The short answer to your question is appendix carry. The long answer is that hip carry can be that fast (look at Jelly Bryce), it just takes exponentially more training. I carry a USPc in Raven Concealment ACR. I switched from hip carry because appendix is faster and conceals (substantially) better for me.

 

[Uteridge]

I usually carry my 1911 at 3:00 for an outside the waistband or 4:00 for inside the waistband and both are very fast on the draw but the fastest draw in most situations is a mouse gun inside a pocket.

If it is cold outside I can walk out to my car with my hand inside my jacket pocket, with my hand in a firing grip on my gun, and my finger off the trigger. If it is a revolver I can shoot inside the pocket, if it is a small pistol then I can shoot once inside the pocket.

If it is hot outside I keep my LCP in my back pocket where most people carry a wallet. By carrying in this position I can give my opponent less time to react to what is happening. Grabbing your wallet during a robbery or mugging is expected and will probably be demanded by your assailant. I have yet to see anyone draw from any position that looks like they are reaching for their wallet in any position other than pocket carry. From pocket carry I can get a firing grip on my gun, pull my gun free of my holster, and my opponent won't see it until it has cleared my body and is fully in his view if I am facing him. From that position I can fire in less than 1/4 of a second and get a good center mass hit. He is watching me go through motions that he is expecting so he has no reason to be alarmed until my gun is already out and I will have a shot off before he has fully realized what is happening and had a chance to react. Action is always faster than reaction. If you are drawing from concealment you are reacting to your threat; if you are working a sneaky pocket draw you can force your threat to react to you.

 

[fasttheo]

Just curious, but do any of the posters who have responded here shoulder carry? I have a Uncle Mike's Cheap-o shoulder holster that I use a lot, and I'm comfortable using it as far as speed goes. Just curious if anyone else uses shoulder, or has any tips or advice.

When I'm not wearing a sport coat, jacket, etc., I carry IWB at 3:00.

 

[X-Rap]

It seems that the appendix to 3-4 o'clock is going to be the fastest when drawing on the move, I look at pocket carry as a compromise and have a very hard time matching my draw from the other positions especially when moving. Sitting presents a whole different set of problems for me with pocket or appendix since I have more in front than I need so 3 o'clock does it until I cut this extra weight.
The point should be well taken about a static draw, in the real world Bob Munden, McGivern, or Jordan as fast as they are/were probably would not win the fight using their famous speed against a gun that is already drawn and aimed.
I feel the same way about the wallet carry idea in that the scenario is usually pulling the wallet against an armed man that might be all jacked up on meth and have the gun pointed at you. In this case do you reach slow and pull fast or what? Drawing from the back pocket and moving would be worse than the front for me plus your movement would signal now compliance with the robbers demands.

 

[Uteridge]

Shoulder carry works well in the car when I am on long trips and I shoulder carry a revolver when I am deer hunting but that is about it. The problem with shoulder carry isn't so much about speed, though it is a little slow on the draw, it is about control of your weapon. Your shoulder holster is on your weakside with spare magazines on your strong side. When you stand in a fighting stance you pistol is just a close and just as accessible to your opponent as it is to you. If I am carrying at the 4:00 position a basic fighting stance puts my weapon on the opposite side of my body from my threat which allows me to draw the weapons freely while fighting someone off with my weak hand to create distance and it keeps someone in front of me from grabbing my gun. All I have to do if someone grabs for my gun from the front is just blade my body by stepping offline and they can't reach my gun. Stepping offline also puts me in an excellent position to draw or to create more distance.

That is the same problem I have with appendix carry. When you are carrying in appendix carry it is really easy to disrupt your draw stroke unless you can create distance.

Signaling compliance at the start of your draw is what you want to do; it slows your opponent's reaction time. If someone has a gun drawn on you and you try your quick draw technique from any position you are going to be shot or at least shot at.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Just curious, but do any of the posters who have responded here shoulder carry? I have a Uncle Mike's Cheap-o shoulder holster that I use a lot, and I'm comfortable using it as far as speed goes. Just curious if anyone else uses shoulder, or has any tips or advice.

I've tried it and everything they say about it is true.

It is slow to draw from as your hand has the most distance to travel, you have a tendency to over swing your target (because most folks don't come to the high ready position from a shoulder holster) and the presentation puts you at a tactical dis-advantage of being easily blocked by someone trained to step in rather than retreat when faced with a gun

 

[smince]

but the fastest draw in most situations is a mouse gun inside a pocket.

Disagree for the same reason as the shoulder holster:

the presentation puts you at a tactical dis-advantage of being easily blocked by someone trained to step in rather than retreat when faced with a gun

Your hand can be checked before it can draw, effectively leaving one hand trapped. and never mind if you get surprised before you can even get your hand inside the pocket.

Also try to draw from pocket carry while moving offline from the attack...

 

[230therapy]

In the hand while aware is fastest.

Next fastest is the appendix position because the hands have to travel the least distance to the gun. The shooter does not need to move the shoulder rearward either.

 

[Uteridge]

My mousegun is a second pistol. I carry 4:00 with a 1911 which is the best position to draw from in close quarters because you can use your body to shield your draw and keep others from reaching your gun. I carry a mousegun in my back pocket on my other side. While it is my secondary gun it will provide the fastest draw in most SD situations. Very rarely do armed citizens have to protect themselves from a violent onslaught where immediately drawing a gun from a position of disadvantage is the best thing to do. Most armed confrontations that are not in the house are mugging type situations and that is where a back pocket mousegun excels. If someone comes at me in an aggressive way that makes subtlety a moot point I am going straight for the .45 while stepping off line and heading towards cover. A mousegun is not a substitute for carrying a full size gun but in many, and probably most, SD situations outside your house a mousegun in the back pocket is a better solution than carrying just a full size pistol. They are more subtle to draw which allows you to buy time.

Practice your mousegun draw in front of a mirror. You can't see that the gun is a gun and not a wallet until it is past your side and well on the way to being in action. It takes me less than 1/4 of a second to get off my first shot with a mousegun from the time you can see the gun to the time the shot breaks. I don't care who you are that is faster than you can react to what I am doing. It takes me about 8/10 of a second to draw and fire my .45 and you can tell right away what I am doing which gives you that full amount of time to react. If someone mugs me they are getting multiple .380's in the chest before they know that they aren't getting my wallet. If I am violently attacked or if a shooting starts I am going to the .45 immediately and the .380 stays in the pocket. I know most people want to carry only one gun but adding a couple of ounces to my daily dress code here in the states by throwing a .380 in my back pocket is nothing. If you are looking for the one perfect position to carry a gun that is best for all situations then good luck because that position does not exist. If you are going to carry a pistol on the front of your body though you will want to learn some weapon retention techniques so you don't get killed with your own weapon.

 

[smince]

When you are carrying in appendix carry it is really easy to disrupt your draw stroke unless you can create distance.

Signaling compliance at the start of your draw is what you want to do;

Any draw stroke can be fouled if the attacker is close enough. Creating distance is what you want/need to do with any carry method. H2H skills come in very handy here also.

While you may signal compliance, I'm going to be moving offline at any angle that presents itself as I draw to get out of his line of fire.

Not getting shot is at least as important as shooting back.