Which JHP. Does it really matter?

[The Lone Haranguer]

Is a bullet from one manufacturer so much better in overall performance than another that we should all be using them.

An excellent question. And I don't think so. Even with the last known attempt to scientifically quantify ammunition performance (the Marshall/Sanow "one-shot stops"), evidence that one load is truly superior to another is anecdotal at best. I therefore choose a hollowpoint that, first and foremost, functions in my handgun. The biggest and baddest HP will do absolutely no good hung up on the feed ramp.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Does it really matter?

Interesting to me that the biggest hype-driver about "latest and greatest" ammo has been...the FBI!

All of their odd penetration tests (4-layers of denim, auto glass, sheet metal, marine plywood, etc.--and then demanding 12 inch gel penetration!) have forced companies to make new bullets that meet those specs...without any evidence at all (experimentally) that such bullets stop gunfigths (especially non-LE gunfights) any better than older (and much cheaper) designs.

So the answer to your question is: the new bullets are HECK on gel after passing through barriers! Whether they stop fights any better is speculative.

 

[jim243]

Is a bullet from one manufacturer so much better in overall performance than another that we should all be using them.

Yes, but it doesn't really matter. The first rule is to hit what you're shooting at. Without that it doesn't matter what the bullet will do if you can't hit what you are shooting at. Each pistol or rifle will shoot best with one brand or type of bullet than another. That is why it is best to try different brands and weights of ammo when you first get a new gun. This is what you should be using. (what is most accurate in YOUR pistol.)

Everything else is secondary.
Jim

 

[ORHunter79]

I personally go with what the FED's use and what local PD uses, the Winchester PDX1's. They are bonded, with good expansion and penetration on flesh and good penetration through barriers.

From what I've seen they are designed not to expand when hitting a barrier like glass, wood or drywall, which is good cause they still have enough energy to hit the target.

I'm sure the FBI spent more money than I have to test and pick a round for carry, so if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

 

[Big JJ]

Question for my 357 2 inch snubbie.
The accepted best load for the caliber is a 125 JHP in 357 running at about 1300 fps.
This is not a load that I want to shot for my snubbie for my own personal reasons.
I wil only carry 38 special +P rounds ( approx 950 fps) in it not the 357 loads.
MY QUESTION: What JHP bullet size is will give me the best penetration and expansion at the slower 38 special +P velocities appox 950 fps.
Is it still the 125 grain or a different size that I should carry to get the results I want?
Brand name recommendations are appreciated but not asking for just a brand name but more a size (110,125,158 etc) because I am a reloader.

 

[jim243]

Is it still the 125 grain or a different size that I should carry to get the results I want?

The age old question, speed or mass. For me it's mass, 45 ACP over 9mm and 158 grain Magtech semi-jacketed flat point for the 357, hits like a ton of bricks.

Jim

 

[conhntr]

My opinion is that some of the super premium jhp that run well over 1.50$ per round are not the best choice. Regardless of if your ammo budget is 50$ or 1000$ i think you are mich better with a .50$ hollow point and having twice as many for reliability testing and practice.

Say you have a glock 21 with 4 mags. Minimum i would want to run my chosen load from each mag at least 2 times without failure. That could be 200$ with this
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/77...arnes-tac-xp-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-20


Then switch out your practice ammo every 6-12 months after 3 years you could be over 1000$ in two years of carrying! Just dumb

 

[gym]

I bought 3 different hollow point ammo choices, I think that you should shoot the heaviest bullet your gun will fire. 230 grain in my 45, 180 in my 40, and the only difference is in my 9mm, I actually shoot a very light powerball round. The reason is that 9mm, always had a bigger problem with expansion,"being a slimmer round" and the term "speed kills" comes into play here, I shoot a 100 grain powerball, with the plastic tip, I know it's going feed and it' coming out at 1300+ fps. That's going to do the job in my opinion.It's magnum speed. That bullett will expand because of the plastic ball in the tip, "also some Hornaday red tip in my 40. A bit lighter but faster and definitive expansion on target. For FMJ just the heaviest ammo made for the caliber.
You can alwys go to federal hydra shock, JHP ammo as an all around good round for just about any handgun. The feed well and have that metal pin inside for the same reason.By the way in 380, my preferance is golden sabre 102 grain, which is heavier than my 9mm. Because it is such a small round that extra punch on ballistic charts, brings it up to a 65% one shot stopper. In the same general area as a 9.

 

[mljdeckard]

I think there is some difference, not a whole lot. The most important thing to consider is what works well in your gun.

There is no guarantee that any bullet will or won't do what is supposed to when it hits a target. There are some that are more LIKELY to do a given thing. Hollow-points can fail to expand. FMJs can mushroom. The reason we teach to shoot repeatedly is to maximize the odds in your favor. Is there a difference between HSTs and WWB JHPs? I suppose. But I think it's a lot less than some guys think it is. I do still think, however, that you should give yourself every advantage you can when you are fighting for your life. Get the best JHP ammo your gun can feed.

I might add, that now I have started reloading, it is more feasible to use and practice with the same bullet without being too expensive. I think the advantage you get from extensive training with your carry round holds a lot of benefit. I may investigate some different JHP bullets I can handload to see if I can find a single bullet to use for everything.

 

[Ben86]

All of their odd penetration tests (4-layers of denim, auto glass, sheet metal, marine plywood, etc.--and then demanding 12 inch gel penetration!) have forced companies to make new bullets that meet those specs...without any evidence at all (experimentally) that such bullets stop gunfigths (especially non-LE gunfights) any better than older (and much cheaper) designs.

Interesting point. I also have a hard time believing that with all that barrier defeating ability doesn't come some decrease in expansion. I'm no physicist or ballistic expert, but that just sounds unbelievable.

I'm glad Federal bucked the trend of bonded bullets and created a non-bonded bullet that holds it's jacket just as well (HST). I love it when something new is created that flies in the face of the experts.

 

[Hardtarget]

I carry a .45 with HP ammo. I know it may not expand...but it might. If it doesn't...its still a .45 cal bullet. If it does expand...well, thats better!

Mark

 

[ActionJax]

For my 380 (7rds) --- Wally Winch. White Box FMJ -- for range
Winchester PDX1 JHP -- for carry

Sig P229 9mm (16 rds) -- Wally Winch. White Box FMJ -- for range
Winchester +P PDX1 JHP -- for carry


Note the similarities?? This way, I can always remember what to order from my online sites. I order (and shoot) a LOT......

 

[theicemanmpls]

All premium ammo is going to put a hurt on the target (bad guy) I don't think it matters that much. Some will work better against barriers then others. Its all a trade off.
What is most important is how it cycles in your firearm. Chances are one will take more then one shot. FTF is not a good thing in SD situations.

Remember the marketing guys love to use hype and fear to sell their product. FUD. fear, uncertainty, doubt.

Odds are, one will never use any ammo in a SD scenario.

 

[Bone2bWild]

Well I don't know how many people break into your house wearing 4 layers of denim but the plastic inserts can't hurt. I would never carry ball ammo because of the risk associated with shooting through the perp and injuring/killing a bystander or family member. If I did win the lawsuit from the perps family I would surely lose the one from the bystander that was injured or killed due to my ammo choice.

I laugh every time I read about over penetration and injuring bystanders. I think, hell I know, I would rather have blood coming out of two holes than one effectively doubling the size of my clip in terms of blood loss, oh and don't forget the clothes the perp is wearing. Not too many shirtless coatless gun wielding bandits running around my neighborhood. If your that worried I guess you can carry a 380 or better yet 22LR what with all these expert marksman on here. And even though I quoted you it's not meat at you but the absurdity of worrying about over penetration. Penetration is like sex you can never get too much


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[exavid]

In response to the question about Remington, yeah I'd shoot it. I've use the stuff and it goes bang satisfactorily in my .45 and the 9mm. Ditto Winchester White Box. I think the Remington might be a bit dirtier in the 9mm but just a little. The only thing I don't like about WWB in .45 is they use a small pistol primer in the cartridge. That's a pain in the butt if you reload like I do because you have to separate your .45 brass for loading two different sized primers. Mostly I use my own reloads or SD rounds for my carry guns and use the cheap stuff for practice.

 

[mljdeckard]

I've reloaded lots of WWB, I don't recall ever having found any small primer pockets.

 

[Deus Machina]

I keep HST in my carry gun.

I do keep a box of 147gr Winchester and a big box of 115gr Remington basic stuff in my safe.

Remember that gel tests are hardly exact to a body, though. Yes, high-end rounds (HST, Gold Dot, etc.) will expand better than Winchester white-box. Enough that someone on the other end will notice? Probably not, but ammo is cheap enough that I just carry the best my gun will feed.

 

[Loosedhorse]

the absurdity of worrying about over penetration.

Sigh. I'm losing track of how many times I've posted this:

Well, it was a report in in the New York Times that publicized this NYPD report:

According to statistics released by the department, 15 innocent bystanders were struck by police officers using full-metal-jacket bullets during 1995 and 1996, the police said. Eight were hit directly, five were hit by bullets that had passed through other people and two were hit by bullets that had passed through objects.

In that same period, officers in the Transit Bureau, who already used the hollow points, struck six bystanders. Four of them were hit directly, one was hit by a bullet that ricocheted and another was hit by a bullet that passed through an object.

In that same period, 44 police officers were struck by police gunfire using the old ammunition: 21 were hit directly, 2 were struck by bullets that ricocheted and 17 were struck by bullets that passed though other people. Of the four officers struck by hollow-point bullets, three were hit directly and one was hit by a bullet that passed through another person.

Massad Ayoob also had an article on (I believe) the same NYC statisitics.

By my count, that's 23 persons hit by bullets passing though other persons. Just the documented cases; just the ones involving police. In two years. One city.

Not sure we can disregard over-penetration as just a media myth. Of course, NYPD was at that time using 9mm hardball, one of the most penetrative rounds going.

The idea that "over-penetration is a myth"...is a myth. If that overpenetrating bullet hits a loved one or other innocent, well, that's a tough way to find out.

 

[Manson]

Loose. I hadn't seen that study before. Thanks for posting.

 

[exavid]

mjdeckard - I misidentified the brand. I'm looking at one right now and its a Federal, not a Winchester White Box. I don't remember right now what box of Federals these are coming from. There's been some discussion of these on a couple of the gun forums. I don't know whether the small primer is a magnum or regular small pistol primer or something else. I tried reloading a few with a regular small pistol primer and they fired okay. I don't have a chronograph so I can't speak to the difference in velocity between these and a normal large primered .45. It just seems like it ought to be a bit less but I don't know. I do know it's a PIA if they get mixed in with regular primered .45 shells. This is really only of importance to reloaders like me who pick up brass left behind by others.

 

[Bone2bWild]

Sigh. I'm losing track of how many times I've posted this:The idea that "over-penetration is a myth"...is a myth. If that overpenetrating bullet hits a loved one or other innocent, well, that's a tough way to find out.

I get it that penetration is no myth but shouldn't that be a desired outcome?

So with brand X, known to be low penetration and a loved one standing behind the perp... You'd take the shot? Not me. I just don't buy the loved one argument unless you'd be willing to take the shot. Absent that scenario I want two holes per round if I can get it, but I also want expansion creating the largest wound channel possible. Same as in bow hunting I desire a complete passthrough and hold till I have a clean shot with no other deer standing behind.

I don't mean to hijack the thread because I have learned about the JHPs the create the largest slice. I guess hunting has shaped my opinion on the matter but great discussions on here.


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[Loosedhorse]

shouldn't that be a desired outcome?

Let's not mix things.

I was only responding to your comment that being concerned about over-penetration was laughably absurd. I don't think it is.

So with brand X, known to be low penetration and a loved one standing behind the perp... You'd take the shot? Not me.

So...you're saying there's a guy in front of you, he's about to shoot you dead, and you're not going to take the shot? Well, as this isn't ST&T, let's just let that one go...

Absent that scenario I want two holes per round if I can get it

Why? A person shot in the chest bleeds into the chest; not sure how he's going to bleed out any faster with an exit wound.

Or were you planning on using his blood trail to track him?

Same as in bow hunting

Arrows and bullets are different. If an arrow shaft remains in the wound, it can act to slow bleeding (a standard first-aid principle is that you do not remove knives or arrows from those injured by them).

However, a bullet that penetrates to (but not through) the far-side skin has done as much as it needs to; having it penetrate completely through likely buys you nothing good.

no other deer standing behind.

That's the great thing about hunting: we can pass up a shot that risks wounding a second animal. In SD, if you pass up a shot, well, I'm not sure how your being dead is necessarily going to help that person behind your attacker--but that's up to you.

When hunting, I have selected rounds that I expect to stop underneath the far hide without completely penetrating. Not so I can then take a shot with an animal behind my target...but because I might not have seen the animal behind my target.

Similarly, I'd like to pick a SD round that, if it does completely penetrate an attacker, has very little energy left over--and I'd prefer that it doesn't exit. I can't select a perfect bullet that I know will do that every time; but I can set that as my goal, and choose accordingly.

YMMV.

 

[Pietro Beretta]

It does matter a little bit, there are some loading's that will reliably fail, due to the weight/velocity of the round -- usually these don't last on the market too long because manufacturers really are/have paid a butt load in R&D and correct those "mistakes" pretty quick...

I think it was golden saber JHP in .45 a little while back that just didn't like to expand.

I live in an indoor apartment building with other people living above, below, in front, left and right of me. In a HD situation over penetration is never a good idea, you should see how far .380 in ball will penetrate.

 

[NG VI]

Non-expanding pistol bullets (other than the big bore hunting-type calibers Prosser likes) don't leave a wound channel as wide as the bullet. Tissue is highly elastic, before it tears and allows the bullet to pass by it stretches quite a bit, and once the bullet has moved past it snaps back almost completely in place.

The only real exceptions to that are bones, which can sometimes create secondary projectiles, but that has almost nothing to do with the bullet type, any kind can cause that. I think velocity plays a big role in creating bone splinters.

The net result of elasticity of tissue is that a non-expanding bullet doesn't act like an arrow, it doesn't cut a hole through, it pushes through. Nose shape is almost completely irrelevant in the service pistol bulelts as well. Either it expands and creates a more significant amount of tissue damage or it doesn't and it just passes through, not causing a whole lot of external bleeding because the entrance and exit wounds close up almost completely and not causing a whole lot of internal bleeding because the bullet doesn't destroy all the tissue it contacts on its travels through the body.

The "it's still a .45" line of thought doesn't usually take into account that non-expanding bullets in any of the service calibers creates nearly identical wounds and are all poor performers, regardless of what size the bullet is. Without meaningful expansion you are poking little icepick wounds into your attacker, and that's not a great way to stop a fight in your favor.

 

[NG VI]

Why? A person shot in the chest bleeds into the chest; not sure how he's going to bleed out any faster with an exit wound.

That's another very critical piece of the puzzle when considering wounds. Internal bleeding is at least as bad, maybe worse than externally losing blood. Blood that ends up pouring onto the ground is blood that isn't circulating in your system where it should be, but blood pouring into your lungs is both not where it should be but also somewhere that causes the owner a lot of other problems.

Blood doesn't just need to be in your body, it also needs to be in your veins and arteries.