Who can rechamber a Ruger Single Six to a low-pressure 10mm cartridge?

[MatthewVanitas]

Hello all, for a couple years now I've had a weird desire to shoehorn as large a cartridge into a Single Six as is practical (5-shot cylinder is fine). The .41 Special has been done, but apparently it's a real pain due to cartridge size so gunsmiths either refuse to do it or charge an arm and a leg.

Looking around at options, I realized that the .41 Long Colt has a cartridge only slightly bigger than .38 Special (with an even smaller rim) but can take a .406" heeled bullet since it sits over the case mouth. Certainly seems a great way to get a big fat bullet in there!

.38 Special
Rim diameter .44 in
Rim thickness .058 in
Case length 1.155 in
Case width: .379 in
Overall length 1.55 in

.41 Long Colt
Rim diameter .430 in
Rim thickness .063 in
Case length 1.130 in (maximum)
Case width: .405 in
Overall length (varies on brass and bullet, some loadings use short 0.932 in brass)

So as you can see, the only dimension in which the .41LC is larger than .38 Special is the body of the case itself. So still an issue, but not so big an issue as if it had a larger rim that would bump its neighbor, or was too long for the cylinder. The Ruger Single Six has around a 1.39 (conservatively corrected from prior 1.41 measure) in cylinder length

Can anyone recommend which gunsmiths I should ask for quotes from? I would imagine that anyone known for doing Single Six .38Spl conversions might entertain the idea, so any tips on such fellows would be good. I don't need fancy engraving or refinishing, "just" making a cylinder and installing a .406 barrel, maybe slicking up the insides a smidge. Not even wanting to re-blue, would rather just "tumble" it to look uniformly old, going for basically a Ruger-equivalent of the old Colt 1877 Thunderer (but with modern internals, better steel, and adjustable sights), putting a Qualite grip on it to get the right look.

Yes, I know that Uberti/Cimarron made a .41 Thunderer (SA-only) but they're discontinued, plus I want Ruger quality so I'm willing to pay more for better. Thanks for any tips as to what gunsmiths I should inquire with!

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Would that even be possible with a Single-Six cylinder window without cutting the frame?

 

[98Redline]

Hamilton Bowen of Bowen Classic Arms would be my first choice.
http://bowenclassicarms.com/workshop.html

Whether or not he takes the job is another story however he has been known to do some really nice double action conversions.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I've been reading some past threads, and .41 Spl definitely requires cutting the frame to chamber. I believe .38 Spl does as well, but again technically the .41LC has the smallest rim-size of those three, so not sure if that whisker of saved space would avoid the frame mods. If cutting is needed, the donor gun must be pre-transfer-bar.

I asked Gary Reeder, but he has a big backlog and doesn't have .41LC chamber reamers nor .406 barrels so I'd be waiting at least a year.

 

[gotboostvr]

The 41 LC is a way to get a 40 cal bullet in there, but I'm not sure if I'd call it a "great way". There's a reason why heeled bullets fell from popularity.

What about a 40 SW? Machine the cylinder so it headspaces on the case mouth.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I have a passionate dislike of the .40 S&W due to a bad experience with a Glock. And I understand 10mm would likely be too much pressure; I suppose in theory I could do 10mm and sign a "light loads" waiver with the gunsmith if he agreed, but loading heeled honestly sounds kind of fun and also leaves more steel in the cylinder since it's a slimmer cartridge.

Comparing these new two:


10mm Auto
Rim diameter .425 in
Rim thickness .055 in
Case length 0.992 in
Case width: .423 in
Overall length 1.260 in (maximum)

.41 Long Colt
Rim diameter .430 in
Rim thickness .063 in
Case length 1.130 in (maximum)
Case width: .405 in
Overall length (varies on brass and bullet, some loadings use short 0.932 in brass)

So between the two, a *gently loaded* 10mm fits the cylinder length just fine, has a smaller "rim" diameter and thickness, but the case width is .018 wider, to whatever degree that matters.

If it came down to a gunsmith saying "I can do a 10mm Single Six just fine if you load it mild, but it'll cost 50% more to do .41LC" then I could imagine going 10mm (*not* the hated .40S&W) but if the price is reasonably close, the heeled bullet just sounds fun to load, and distinctive. Plus less chance that someone someday would drop a full-power 10mm round into it and grenade it.

I'm open to ideas, are there any other .40-41 caliber revolver catridges under 1.4" OAL which are low-pressure? .41 Short wouldn't be any less silly than .41 LC so that's out. And the .401 Herter Powermag has a case more like a .41 Mag so has the same downsides as the .41 Spl. I'm open to any .40+ cartridge where the brass isn't pure unobtanium. I have zero desire to hot-rod it, I just want to bloop stout bullets at sub-sonic speeds out of a little frame.

EDIT:
Novelty option: have it chambered for 10mm Magnum but use a different (made up?) name to indicate that actual full-power 10mm Mag loads shouldn't be used in it? Same specs as 10mm Auto except 1.255" case length.

.41 Action Express has too wide a body at .435".
38-40 doesn't interest me, and the case alone is 1.30" so running out of room for bullet
10.4 Italian is just too wide, despite being short and cool-sounding, plus rare brass

I don't have a copy of Cartridges of the World these days, but if anyone is bored feel free to leaf through and holler out any similar-sized cartridges.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I would use the new and highly cool .41 Special round instead.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

As noted in the OP, the .41 Special is at the ragged edge of too large for a Single Six, requiring extensive frame-cutting that really adds to the cost and several of the gunsmiths who've done it won't do it anymore since it's a pain. Again comparing:

.41 Special
Rim diameter .492 in
Rim thickness .060 in
Case length ~1.190
Case width .434
Overall length ~1.525 (so you'd need specifically short loads to fit a standard SS with 1.39 cylinder)

.41 Long Colt
Rim diameter .430 in
Rim thickness .063 in
Case length 1.130 in (maximum)
Case width: .405 in
Overall length (varies on brass and bullet, some loadings use short 0.932 in brass)

So you can see the .41 Special has a significantly thicker body, and way larger rim. So I'd need to check with gunsmiths and see if the significantly slimmer 10mm Auto (.425 vs .492) might be able to avoid cutting into the frame to widen the loading-gate.

The 10mm Auto is 1.260" OAL maximum, while the 10mm Magnum is 1.555" OAL maximum, so the heaviest 10mm loads might be too long for the SS 1.39" cylinder, so I'd need to puzzle out my bullet vs. case length priorities...

 

[Havok7416]

You have a "passionate dislike" for .40 S&W, but 10mm is fine? Why not just get the cylinder cut for .40 and be done with It? It's not a Glock.

I have a S&W 610 in 10mm and it's a lot of fun, but it's also quite a bit more gun as well. Just something to think about for you...

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I'm not saying my hatred of the .40 is rational, but 10mm I'm fine with.

Also from what I'm reading, .40 isn't a good case for the 220gr cast bullet loads that would be my max (at low speeds) so I'd rather have it cut for 10mm, and label it ".402 Umptyfratz" or whatever on the frame to indicate it shouldn't be shot with stock 10mm ammo.

 

[the Black Spot]

.357 sig?

 

[CraigC]

Whether you go for the .38Spl or .41Spl, the cost should be in the same ballpark. The .38 can be on either New or Old Model but the .41 has to be on the Old Model. Neither is cheap but anything over a .38 is going to cost a little more. Either way it's going to be in the same price range as a big bore five shot large frame conversion. You're not going to save any money on doing a .41LC but you are introducing a lot more aggravation with no benefit. One option, if it's feasible and/or would save any costs, would be to cut a 10mmMag chamber, stopping it a bit short. Modern Starline .41Colt brass can be resized in 10mm dies and reloaded with .400-.401" .40S&W/10mm/.38-40 bullets. Something I'm considering on a project or two. Personally, I would suggest going whole hog with a .41Spl on the Old Model.

As far as gunsmiths, I don't think Bowen will do one. Clements and Harton have done them in the past but Harton is only taking Colt work and Clements has sworn off doing them, though he may be worth a try. I know that Jack Huntington will do one because I've asked him about doing weirder stuff than that.

 

[Jim Watson]

John Gallagher has done .41 Special Single Six and I have a .38 Special Single Six he built.
He might undertake a .41 LC but I bet you would have to buy him a reamer and it might help if you rounded up the barrel blank as you mention for Reeder. Finding a source of a .406" barrel might be a good trick. Pac-Nor makes a .408" and Green Mountain a .401".

I assume you know all about loading heeled bullets.
There is another way. USFA made a .41 LC as a true .38s with a .386" barrel to handle inside lubricated bullets without hollow bases.

 

[CraigC]

I forgot about Gallagher but his delivery times can fluctuate wildly. Huntington will probably have it done in six months.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, there is that. I live close enough to Jasper that I could go sit on his doorstep if necessary. The Single Six .38 I have came from a regular customer's divorce sale.

 

[CraigC]

He does great work but I've heard of too many folks waiting 3yrs or more to get one back.

Just to reiterate, I really don't think a proper .41Colt is going to be worth the trouble, unless you do it as I stated above with standard .400" inside lubed bullets. You'll forget about whatever extra it cost, if any, long after the project is done but the hassle of odd-sized heeled bullets will linger forever. The .41Spl makes things much easier. Also, if you ever decide to part with it, a .41Spl will sell itself in short order at near full replacement cost but a .41LC will be tough to get your money out of.

 

[edwardware]

I have a passionate dislike of the .40 S&W due to a bad experience with a Glock. And I understand 10mm would likely be too much pressure; I suppose in theory I could do 10mm and sign a "light loads" waiver with the gunsmith. . .

"Lightly loaded 10mm" is exactly what .40S&W is. It's your money, but I'd reexamine your dislike of .40 in poorly supported semiauto chambers and go for the obvious solution. As a bonus, bullets and brass are so widely available they're practically free compared to your other options.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Just to reiterate, I really don't think a proper .41Colt is going to be worth the trouble,

You have a very good point, so I've asked the mods to re-title the thread to be about Single Six in a 10mm chambering more broadly.

"Lightly loaded 10mm" is exactly what .40S&W is. It's your money, but I'd reexamine your dislike of .40 in poorly supported semiauto chambers and go for the obvious solution. As a bonus, bullets and brass are so widely available they're practically free compared to your other options.

You ain't wrong, but on the more practical side, 10mm Auto also gives me more real-estate to load the 220 cast bullets (at sub-sonic speed) which would be the reasonable max for this bore.

One option, if it's feasible and/or would save any costs, would be to cut a 10mmMag chamber, stopping it a bit short. Modern Starline .41Colt brass can be resized in 10mm dies and reloaded with .400-.401" .40S&W/10mm/.38-40 bullets. Something I'm considering on a project or two. Personally, I would suggest going whole hog with a .41Spl on the Old Model.

I was thinking *exactly* this last night. Especially if a gunsmith is reluctant to make it chamberable for 10mm Auto or Mag, having a simple "wildcat" that's just in between the two would be a great workaround. I even have an awesome idea for a name, but I'm keeping it under my hat and just using the code-name ".402 Umptyfratz" for the moment. But yeah, a middle-ground cartridge between Auto and Mag that exists solely for being chambered in small revolvers at low speeds/pressures (but with heavy bullets), that would be outstanding!


Speaking of trying to make a "Modern Thunderer", the main people who made Thunderer-style grips for the Ruger were Qualite but they seem to be discontinued. Were those compatible with the Single Six or just larger frames? If SS compatible, where's the best place to go asking around for one that's wasting away in someone's closet? I'm not inclined to pay "desparate money" since I can always just use the current grip and get the other one later, but in the fullness of time I want a Thunderer grip so this can look as close as possible (despite not being DA) to the Colt M1877 .41LC Thunderer, but with modern sights and other refinements.

Here's the Qualite grip that's discontinued, discussed on Ruger Forum. Note I'm not looking for the more common birds-head, but the weird jointed Thunderer one as shown: http://rugerforum.net/ruger-single-action/42655-qualite-brass-birds-head-grip-vaquero.html

 

[MrBorland]

I've asked the mods to re-title the thread to be about Single Six in a 10mm chambering more broadly

Done, upon request.

 

[BSA1]

I've been reading some past threads, and .41 Spl definitely requires cutting the frame to chamber.

My hazy memory seems to recall that it was necessary to some cutting and welding on my Single-Six but I don't remember where it was.

You will need a Old Model Single Six for conversion to a 41 Long Colt.

My Gallagher 41 Special;

 

[edwardware]

"Lightly loaded 10mm" is exactly what .40S&W is.

You ain't wrong, but on the more practical side, 10mm Auto also gives me more real-estate to load the 220 cast bullets (at sub-sonic speed) which would be the reasonable max for this bore.

Now there's a good idea! I like the extra headroom that 10mm provides for a heavy bullet, but I expect that no smith with be willing to chamber a grenade.

I think a ".40 Heavy" wildcat is called for here.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Already got a cool name invented for a shortened 10mm Mag...

The huge question is whether the 10mm, with its much smaller "rim" would fit into a SS without widening the loading gate. That would decide whether I need the donor gun to be an Old Six, New Six, or a .32 Six. I know some 'smiths (including Bowen) won't mess with rimfire to centerfire conversions, but if gate-cutting isn't needed I can find a less-collectible .32 to take apart. If gate cutting is needed, it must be an Old Six because otherwise you cut into the transfer bar, apparently.


The way I see it, and anyone feel free to correct me here, the only real advantage of the .410 bore is you have a wider and heavier array of bullets. I understand most .410 cast top out at 220gr but it is possible to find as high as 300gr? That is kinda cool, and the biggest I'm finding in .400 bore is 220gr. But I'm just plinking so that's probably enough. And there is definitely some appeal in having a 10mm wildcat that nobody else has, made from reasonably-available 10mm Mag brass cut down just longer than Auto.

 

[Jim Watson]

Since 10mm case diameter is less than .38 Spl rim diameter, and since Clements will convert a NM SS .32 to .38, you should be ok on the gate.

I would shorten 10mm cases just enough to keep Norma spec ammo out.
Maybe to .935" like heel bullet .41 LC.
10mm Magnum LONGER than Norma would put you at risk of ammo mixup down the road.

Lessee, now, you need a gun, a barrel, a cylinder sizing reamer, and a chamber reamer with cylinder pilot. Lots of shop time, lots of money. And a touch of the Blarney Stone.
I see this as a Type 3 gunsmith job; physically possible but you are going to have to talk somebody into a one-off.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I realize it certainly won't be cheap, but if I can bring the entire package in under $2k, I'd be okay with that since that's roughly what I have set aside for my fun-gun-budget after selling a house and a motorcycle last month. I don't plan to buy more than a few custom sixguns in the next 3-4 decades I hope to be alive, so a splurge isn't out of order.

I would hope a good 'smith might already have a 10mm chamber reamer, and that .400 barrels would be far easier to find than .406, so switching from .41LC to ".402 Umptyfratz" should already have some cost savings, and significant cost savings if there's no RF/CF conversion required and no cutting out of the loading gate. A .32 SS costs a little more, but I've seen them for $400+ so not egregious by any means. I realize new cylinders aren't cheap, but Ruger-customizers do that on a regular basis I expect.

Just need to eventually find a Qualite Thunderer grip to make it complete, but I can get by fine with a stock grip in the interim. Is this way too presumptuous of me, but is this potentially something I could have shipped to Taffin or some similar gunwriter and he might enjoy doing a writeup on it or including it in a future book, if it ends up being a really cool project?

Aside from cartridge, anyone have any small suggestions for other tweaks and upgrades that would make this project special? I assume free-wheeling pawl and a Belt Mountain pin, upgraded springs, etc. For grips, since my theme is a "modern Thunderer", I'm thinking canvas micarta or G10 or something similar that looks ivory-ish but has no legal/ethical hangups and will last for generations as an heirloom.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

They make one in .327 Mag now if you don't have one. I understand if it doesn't answer the mail for you, but may also be a better/different start point.

For the 40 hate, I think I would chamber it in that but have it marked 10mm Short