Why 2F Instead of 3F - BP Handgun Cartridges

[Dave Markowitz]

I've loaded black powder in .38-40, .44-40, and .32 S&W (not Long). I've only tried 3Fg, but I've used Goex, Old Eynseford, Scheutzen, and Swiss. Swiss left the least fouling in .44-40 for me.

I generally use Starline brass in .38-40 and .44-40.

For both .38-40 and .44-40 a full load is 2.2cc of 3Fg, under 180 grain and 219 grain bullets, respectively. 2.2cc in a Lee dipper is about 35 grains of powder. This is slightly compressed. I do not use a separate powder compression die, just seat the bullet.

Another load in .44-40 I've tried is a reduced load to approximate .44 Henry Flat ballistics, mostly for use in my Cimarron 1860 Henry rifle. That load is 28 grains / 1.8cc of 3Fg, topped by either 0.5cc or cornmeal or a 1/8" thick card wad, and the same bullet I use with full loads. Again, it's a compressed load. This Henry-equivalent load is more tedious to assemble, but fouls noticeably less. It's also a lot more pleasant to shoot in revolvers compared with full-house BP loads.

My .32 S&W BP rounds were loaded for my 1878-vintage S&W No.1-1/2 Single Action. I decapped and resized the once-fired Remington brass on my press, but I used an antique Ideal tong tool to load the rounds, using 78 grain bullets cast in its integral mold. They were loaded with 0.3cc / ~5 grains of 3Fg Old Eynesford, all I could fit in modern cases. I'd probably be able to get 0.5cc / ~9 grains in balloon head brass, which would duplicate the original load.

 

[Johnm1]

John, what a cool revolver! I've never seen one in person, only in books.

yeah. I over traded for it. Was the day after a significant surgery on my leg and I was on significant pain killers. He wanted way too much in cash so I traded several rifles/pistols for it. I had paid much less for the combination of trade firearms but he made out real well on his selling price for all that I traded to him.

Note to self: don’t make major trades under the influence of narcotics.

 

[44 Dave]

[QUOTE

Another load in .44-40 I've tried is a reduced load to approximate .44 Henry Flat ballistics, mostly for use in my Cimarron 1860 Henry rifle. That load is 28 grains / 1.8cc of 3Fg, topped by either 0.5cc or cornmeal or a 1/8" thick card wad, and the same bullet I use with full loads. Again, it's a compressed load. This Henry-equivalent load is more tedious to assemble, but fouls noticeably less. It's also a lot more pleasant to shoot in revolvers compared with full-house BP loads.

I load .44-40 much the same and top with a Big Lube bullet, but the reduced loads topped with C.O.W. are fine in my revolvers.
Shooting SASS with my Winchester '73 I went back to full loads for it because the last 6" of the barrel were fouled with cooked cereal.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The old standard (as I recall) was 2F for larger calibers, and 3F for smaller calibers. The dividing point was 45 caliber.

Anyway, I used to load 2F in 12 gauge shotgun, and 3F in 45 Colt and 44-40. Eventually I tired of keeping 2 different granulations in stock, so now I load everything (12 Gauge, 45-70, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 with 2F. I have never done any accuracy studies, or bullet drop studies, I simply decided to go with 2F in everything. From what I have read, all other things being equal, a 3F load will deliver between 60 fps - 100 fps more velocity than a similar 2F load.

 

[Bibbyman]

One thing I've not seen mentioned is, 3f seems to flow better through a powder measure or flask with valve. I got to where I just use scoops most of the time just to avoid the overhead of setting up and cleaning up of powder measures.

 

[Savvy Jack]

From Winchester's August 1895 catalog

For the 32, 38, and 44 WCF rifles and ALL center-fire pistol cartridges:

• American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge, No. 4"
• Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.F.G."
• E. I. DuPont. de Nemours & Co.'s "Dupont Rifles F.F.G."
• Laflin & Rand Powder Co.'s "Orange Rifle Extra, F.F.G."

For powder to be used in rifle cartridges containing more than 40 grains, we recommend the following brands and sizes of grains as giving the best results:

• American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge, No. 3"
• Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.G."
• E.I. DuPont. de Nemours & Co.'s "Dupont Rifles F.G."
• Laflin & Rand Powder Co.'s "Orange Rifle Extra, F.G."

Winchester 1914 Catalog, Black Powder loads accurate out to 300 yards!!

 

[Johnm1]

I would like to thank each of you for your insight. It has been enlightening. To start, I’ll load my three revolvers with 3F and see where they hit compared to the sites. My assumption is I will never find a load that shoots to the sights. We will see what adjustments need to happen for each revolver after I’m done testing.

Currently I have 2, 3, and 4F available for testing in quantities enough to test all. If I have to make adjustments, settling on a single powder is probably the best way to go.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Excuse me for asking, and the answer probably is: "I don't want to modify the pistol in any way", but, if the gun is shooting so low, can you not file the front sight? If it's done right, you can duplicate the original profile, just shorter, and done right, it should be un-detectable, unless compared side by side with another identical original pistol. ??

I tend to believe that many fixed sighted pistol came with overly tall front sights, for the purpose of the owner being able to file the sight in order to sight it in to their preference. ? If so, should one preserve the pistol's unusually low point of impact? Okay, just curious, and throwing out some stuff. I can appreciate originality, but if the sight was intended to be filed down...?

Again, I fear that changes in granulation won't produce any meaningful point of impact changes. I hope I'm wrong. Again, just curious as I've not noticed any comments or discussion concerning the front sight. I'm guessing that maybe even the thought of filing it down is....TABOO!!! ???

Anyhow, good luck! A noble cause to say the least!

 

[Johnm1]

As I recall on the 44-40 the front sight had to go up. And a lot. My previous description might have been backwards. Can’t really remember. Sucks getting old.

If it were as simple as filing the front sight I would have done that by now.

The Smith’s are probably pretty close. They all shot high at 11 yards by 4-6” inches. Assuming they were regulated for 25 yards that’d be pretty close.

 

[Onty]

I know, this could sound silly, but what about combining 4F and 2F? I've heard about this practice years ago. First, small amount 4F is loaded, than 2F on top of it. Apparently, this creates easier ignition and better powder burning.

Personally, I wouldn't do this in any original/old rifle, or any original/old or new 44 revolver, 1858 or one of Colts. Also, same for cartridge guns

Modern rifle, Ruger Old Army and Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt, maybe.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

As I recall on the 44-40 the front sight had to go up. And a lot. My previous description might have been backwards. Can’t really remember. Sucks getting old.

If it were as simple as filing the front sight I would have done that by now.

The Smith’s are probably pretty close. They all shot high at 11 yards by 4-6” inches. Assuming they were regulated for 25 yards that’d be pretty close.

My bad, my reading comprehension is what failed. Gun is shooting too high. I got it backwards. Well, has the sight been previously filed? And, could a new front sight be replicated, depending on how it's attached? How about a close up pic of that thar front sight?

 

[hawg]

I don't understand it shooting too high if the front sight hasn't been filed. Most of them shoot too low. I know I've posted this pic of my 44-40 about a bajillion times but it's the factory height and shoots way too low at 25 yards.

 

[woodnbow]

I don't understand it shooting too high if the front sight hasn't been filed. Most of them shoot too low. I know I've posted this pic of my 44-40 about a bajillion times but it's the factory height and shoots way too low at 25 yards.

View attachment 1159979

This ^^^ and, the H&A was a pretty well built revolver, should have been well regulated for bp loads.

Without knowing the trade, I think you’re alright here. They aren’t making any more XL 8’s…

 

[Johnm1]

My bad, my reading comprehension is what failed.

Maybe not. I'm most comfortable with rear sight geometry and I've been known to mix the concepts up both speaking and in writing.

I've only tried once to load the 44-40 and I'm pretty sure I butchered that operation. Wrong bullets, poor lube placement and fouling probably added to the confusion. I now have proper bullets, 245 grains, with proper lube grooves and proper lube. So I'll be starting all over again.

This ^^^ and, the H&A was a pretty well built revolver, should have been well regulated for bp loads

I'd have thought the same. But if the throats are any indication of quality build with regulation in mind, H&A failed on the throats. Throats measured 0.322" (one actually measured 0.321") with a bore dimension of 0.330". This didn't help either. But @Jackrabbit1957 fixed the throats. All I have to do is load properly and see where it hits. I would prefer it zero'd at 25 yards but I suspect it was originally zero'd at 75 yards like the military SAA. We'll see.

 

[hawg]

I didn't see where you said what diameter bullet you were using. I could have missed it tho. The original 44-40 bore size was .427. Modern 44-40 bore size is .429. The only reloading dies I know of that size to .429 are RCBS cowboy. Unless they've changed in the last few years all the rest still size to .427 but you can use a .44 mag expander plug. If you try to stuff a .430 bullet into a case sized to .427 it will crush most case neck. Starline cases might handle it better since they're a little thicker. I don't know when they changed bore size.

 

[Johnm1]

I’ll be honest I don’t remember what diameter bullets either. Nor the die set and the diameter it is set up for. All part of the research yet to be done.

I used two different bullets in my first try. I pulled two boxes of 50 cowboy loads and dumped the smokeless and replaced it with black. I can’t remember what I did with the lube but it will be in my reload notes. I also bought 500 44-40 bullets but when I opened the box they had a hollow base but no lube groove. I tried putting lube in the base and a card using different amounts of black powder and fillers but I wasn’t able to group anything. This is just a pitch what I have and start over. I have approximately sized 0.330” 245 grain bullets for the Russian but want to order some 0.330” 200 grain bullets. But that will be after this round of testing the 32 S&W, 38 S&W, and 44 Russian loads.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I just tested some 44/40 loads a few days ago, I loaded a 220 grn bullet over 4 f black powder, good accuracy. Also loaded a .429 ball over 4f. I lubed them by making up some of Ugly Sauce's lube pills and squishing them into the chamber mouths. It worked well, again good accuracy.

 

[Dave T]

I have approximately sized 0.330” 245 grain bullets for the Russian but want to order some 0.330” 200 grain bullets.

John,

I hope your '0.330"' was a miss-type. Perhaps you meant .430". The 245g weight is correct for the Russian cartridge but way off for the 44 WCF (44-40 today). Heaviest black powder bullet I can find back in the era was 215g and that was later on by Rem-UMC. The original bullet weight introduced by Winchester with the 1873 rifle and the 44 WCF cartridge was 200g.

Dave

 

[Johnm1]

I hope your '0.330"' was a miss-type.

It was.

I’m ordering the 200 grain projectiles from Matt’s Bullets today. They appear to have the larger lube groove. I don’t think they are the Big Lube bullets, but they look very similar.

 

[whughett]

It’s general knowledge that regardless of granular a pound of powder has a given amount of energy. We normally throw powder charges by volume so the energy equation will increase with the f value.
It’s been discussed before in these pages and some have added other values that affect this such as compactness of the powder column, ie space between the kernels of powder.

I finally got around to making a powder drop tube and bought a compression die.
The original 45 Colt was 40 grains of black powder and a 250 grain bullet. I weighed out 40 grains of 2F on a beam scale , dropped the powder thru the drop tube and set the compression die to compress the powder to a depth that allowed the 250 grain bullet to touch the powder without applying force to the bullet seating. I loaded five rounds of 45Colt in this manner and fired them in a Howell conversion cylinder in a Remington NMA (Uberti) with a 5 “ barrel. They were very stout loads, unpleasant to shoot, and at 15 yards a large spread on the target. . I think I’ll repeat this using 3F in the same loading manner but adjusting the compression die to compensate for the lesser volume in the case. 4F may well require a filler to prevent air space.
About the only thing I’ll prove to myself is does the compressed powder add any thing to the equation, given the theory, equal weight equal energy, using felt recoil or accuracy as a guide.

 

[PapaG]

My choices since 1967, and used quite successfully, are: handgun, 3f. Shotgun, original, 2f, shotgun with modern barrel, 3f, rifle upto 45 cal, 3f, musket with round ball 2f, with minie 3f. Cartridge: 12 ga, 2f, all handgun, 3f.
Ruger Old Army performance load, 4f

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I finally got around to making a powder drop tube and bought a compression die.
The original 45 Colt was 40 grains of black powder and a 250 grain bullet. I weighed out 40 grains of 2F on a beam scale , dropped the powder thru the drop tube and set the compression die to compress the powder to a depth that allowed the 250 grain bullet to touch the powder without applying force to the bullet seating. I loaded five rounds of 45Colt in this manner and fired them in a Howell conversion cylinder in a Remington NMA (Uberti) with a 5 “ barrel. They were very stout loads, unpleasant to shoot, and at 15 yards a large spread on the target.

The original 45 Colt loads used copper cases with Benet priming. These were made by the Frankford Arsenal for the original Army tests of the Colt Single Action Army in 1873.

Here are three Benet primed, copper cased cartridges, a 45 Colt on the left and two 45 Schofields. This style of priming looks like rimfire, but they were actually center fire. The cutaway at the right shows the construction. The rims was a folded rim, and inside there was an anvil plate with two flash holes. The priming compound was sandwiched between the bottom of the case and the anvil plate. The pair of crimps near the bottom of the case held the anvil plate in position. When the firing pin struck the bottom of the case, the priming compound was compressed and ignited, with the flame shooting through the two flash holes, igniting the main powder charge. Because of the internal construction of these cases they had more powder capacity than any other style of cartridge.

The Benet primed cartridges were not made for very long, they were soon replaced by what we call today Balloon Head cases. I sectioned two cases for this photo. On the left is an old 45 Colt Balloon Head case, on the right a modern solid head 45 Colt case. Notice how much more powder capacity there is in the old Balloon Head case than in the modern case.

I have taken the liberty of posting a photo from Jerry Kuhnhausen's book The Colt Single Action Revolvers, A Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2. This shows the configuration of the old Benet primed rounds as well as later Balloon Head rounds. Note what Kuhnhausen says at the bottom regarding the old Benet primed cases probably being the only cases that could contain 40 grains of powder.

My point is, stuffing 40 grains of powder into a modern case, and using a compression die to compress it enough to seat a bullet without compressing the powder further, you are probably compressing the 40 grains of powder quite a bit more than was done with the old 40 grain Benet Primed loads as assembled by the Frankford Arsenal.

Further, the 1858 Remington has less space between the rear of the trigger guard and the grip than the Colt SAA. Notice how much less space there is on my old EuroArms Remmie, equipped with a a R&D 45 Colt conversion cylinder than there is on a 2nd Gen Colt.

So it is no wonder you found your 40 grain loads unpleasant to shoot. In addition to compressing the powder more than the original cartridges, I'll bet the trigger guard was whacking the knuckle of your middle finger in recoil.

Because of the geometry of the 1858 Remington, I never fire mine with full house Black Powder 45 Colt ammo, instead I usually fire it with 45 Schofield ammo, loaded with a 200 grain bullet and only about 28.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg powder. This load gets compressed about 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated and is reasonably comfortable to shoot in the Remington. I my knuckle does not get whacked with that load.

My normal Black Powder 45 Colt load consists of a 250 grain bullet over about 33.5 grains of Schuetzen FFg, also compressed between 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. This load is quite comfortable to shoot in a Colt. I never try to cram 40 grains of powder into a modern solid head case, there is no point.

I do not use a drop tube or compression die for either of these loads, there is no need. The powder is dropped directly out of my Lyman BP powder measure, and it is compressed slightly as the bullet is seated.

Accuracy is fine too, sorry, I do not have a photo of any targets, but accuracy is fine.

I hope these photos all come through, I have been having some trouble recently posting photos on The High Road.

This photo shows two 45 Colt cartridges on the left, and two 45 Schofield cartridges on the right. The two in the center are original Benet primed, copped cased rounds, the two on the outside are my Black Powder loads.

 

[LaneP]

I recently loaded some .45 Colt using 2F Swiss and managed to stuff 38 gr (avg scale weight, but 40 gr on my powder measure) under a 1:20 commercial cast 250 gr lead bullet from Desperado Cowboy Bullets. Those loads are stout out of a 5-1/2" Uberti Cattleman and averaged 880 fps for 5 shots.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Forget what your powder measure says, trust the scale.

Different brands of Black Powder weigh different amounts. These things are set up to deliver X many grains of powder, but there is very little relationship to how much the measured charge actually weighs.

I made up this chart years ago when I first started loading cartridges with Black Powder. Notice I use Lee dipper size in the left column. These are the standard charges I use in most of my Black Powder cartridges. The 2.2 size dipper is what I use in my 45 Colt and 44-40 cartridges. Notice the different actual weights of that charge with different powders. Sorry, I have no experience with Swiss, so I have no figures for that.

I load all my 'pistol caliber' Black Powder cartridges on a Hornady Lock and Load AP press with a Lyman Black Powder measure mounted on it. I load 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 with Black Powder on this press. I usually load 200 rounds at a sitting.

Here is a batch of 45 Colt being loaded. Notice the powder charge in the nearest cartridge almost fills the case. That is a 45 Colt 250 grain Big Lube bullet about to be seated.

This is my Lyman Black Powder measure mounted on the Hornady press.

I cannibalize old Lyman 55 powder measures for their rotors. I keep each rotor set for my favorite powder charge for each cartridge. The one on the left delivers 2.2 CC of Schuetzen FFg. As you can see it is labeled for 45 Colt and 44-40.

This is what goes into my BP 45 Colt loads.

My reloading notebook says that out of a 7 1/2" barrelled Colt they are doing a leisurely 704 fps.

 

[.38 Special]

I have generally followed the "accepted knowledge" regarding grain size, except that I have almost always used 3F in revolver cartridges. (I've never come close to fitting 40 grains of it into anything other than balloon head cases, and have found that with Big Lube bullets and Starline cases, 32 grains gives the 1/16" compression I'm looking for.)

The last few years, I have been gravitating more toward 3F everywhere, even .50+ caliber muzzleloaders. My newest .54 flintlock, for example, is faster, more accurate, and cleaner with 3F than 2F, and I can use a bit less of it too. It's coming up on time to make another 25 pound order, and I think I may switch from my traditional 50/50 order to something more like 90% 3F.