Why 2F Instead of 3F - BP Handgun Cartridges

[woodnbow]

I have generally followed the "accepted knowledge" regarding grain size, except that I have almost always used 3F in revolver cartridges. (I've never come close to fitting 40 grains of it into anything other balloon head cases, and have found that with Big Lube bullets and Starline cases, 32 grains gives the 1/16" compression I'm looking for.)

The last few years, I have been gravitating more toward 3F everywhere, even .50+ caliber muzzleloaders. My newest .54 flintlock, for example, is faster, more accurate, and cleaner with 3F than 2F, and I can use a bit less of it too. It's coming up on time to make another 25 pound order, and I think I may switch from my traditional 50/50 order to something more like 90% 3F.

I’m using mostly 3f in everything as well. The only exception is if I’m shootin heavy for caliber bullets. In that case 1.5f Swiss is generally the first choice. It’s clean burning and provides the best accuracy if not the most velocity.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

2f is less velocity than 3f. I use 3f in my 32wcf and in 44wcf I load both 2f and 3f. 3f loads used for longer ranges but for any close range target and CAS I just use 2f in any 44 or 45

 

[Johnm1]

This has been a leisurely thread with a lot of good information passed back and forth. I'm glad it's still going and we're still hearing people's opinions. I've learned a bit. Thanks to all that have contributed.

 

[Gator Weiss]

So I’m about to load several different BP cartridges and I noticed that some/many who load BP handgun cartridges use 2F and instead of 3F. What is the thinking behind that decision?

Consider that I’m basing the question on what I think I know. The general thought is that 1F is for cannon, 2F is for rifle (at least larger rifle anyhow) 3F is for handgun, and 4F is a priming powder. Now I know a lot of people load handguns with 4F generally the smaller handguns I think. But for 38 and 44 I’d have thought 3F would have been the default. And maybe 4F for the 32’s. So is my ‘general thought’ just sheep dip?

2F works for about everything. 3F works for most things. 1F works in big bores and cartidges and so does 2F. Priming charges and methods of priming affect performance, as will humidity, powder condition and quality. Granule size is related to burn rate. Stock 2F and 3F and you can do generally what you need to do. 3F works in the flash pan of small locks. Even 1F works in the flashpan of large military locks. I dont bother with 4F as Ive never really needed it for anything.

 

[LaneP]

Throwing in a few more data points on testing 2F Swiss in my Uberti Cattleman. Won't be surprising to most.

Chronographed 32gr 2F Swiss (avg scale weight) and a 250gr Desperado Cowboy Action bullet with a .030 over powder vegetable wad. These bullets are cast 1:20 tin/lead and advertised to be lubed "suitable for either smokeless or black powder". However I don't believe their lube is a good match, at least for the 2F Swiss I was shooting.

Average for 10 shots was 803 fps, but I observed a steady decline in velocity as the bore crudded up (very noticeable hard crud when cleaning about an hour later). Either their lube isn't a good match for black or there isn't enough of it (about the same size groove as any smokeless bullet). So going forward I'll probably either relube them with SPG or shoot them over smokeless.

This 32gr charge felt plenty powerful and I'll be sticking closer to this charge weight more often than going heavier.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Average for 10 shots was 803 fps, but I observed a steady decline in velocity as the bore crudded up

An interesting side note to that is, as velocity declines, as bore fouling increases, pressure also increases. So one gets less velocity, but more chamber pressure. (not enough to matter of course, but "interesting")

 

[woodnbow]

Throwing in a few more data points on testing 2F Swiss in my Uberti Cattleman. Won't be surprising to most.

Chronographed 32gr 2F Swiss (avg scale weight) and a 250gr Desperado Cowboy Action bullet with a .030 over powder vegetable wad. These bullets are cast 1:20 tin/lead and advertised to be lubed "suitable for either smokeless or black powder". However I don't believe their lube is a good match, at least for the 2F Swiss I was shooting.

Average for 10 shots was 803 fps, but I observed a steady decline in velocity as the bore crudded up (very noticeable hard crud when cleaning about an hour later). Either their lube isn't a good match for black or there isn't enough of it (about the same size groove as any smokeless bullet). So going forward I'll probably either relube them with SPG or shoot them over smokeless.

This 32gr charge felt plenty powerful and I'll be sticking closer to this charge weight more often than going heavier.

As you’re findin out, Swiss can be pretty hard fouling. I use idaholewis’ secret recipe (SPG, Jojoba oil, Stihl Synthetic HP, I think Lewis uses peanut oil) and it’s very good at keeping the fouling soft and absolutely stops leading in guns that are prone to it.

 

[LaneP]

As you’re findin out, Swiss can be pretty hard fouling.

I've never loaded Swiss in cartridge before this, so this is interesting to hear. I do have a supply of Schuetzen in 2F and 3F. I'm going to run some of that in the next round of testing and see what if any difference there is in bore crud and velocity.

 

[woodnbow]

I've never loaded Swiss in cartridge before this, so this is interesting to hear. I do have a supply of Schuetzen in 2F and 3F. I'm going to run some of that in the next round of testing and see what if any difference there is in bore crud and velocity.

Once you find the right lube it’s fine. The quantity of fouling is less than anything else I’ve tried except Triple Seven but the quality of the fouling is different.

 

[Navy Six 2]

Once you find the right lube it’s fine. The quantity of fouling is less than anything else I’ve tried except Triple Seven but the quality of the fouling is different.

Then Desperado Cowboy bullets used to come with a relatively small capacity lube groove. If that design hasn't changed that lack of lube would contribute to the hard fouling you encountered.

 

[4v50 Gary]

2f = weenie loads.
3f= standard ( today) loads
4f= "manly" loads

Mike

El oh El and it's not a title of Spanish nobilty.

 

[LaneP]

Once you find the right lube it’s fine. The quantity of fouling is less than anything else I’ve tried except Triple Seven but the quality of the fouling is different.

Good to know.

I just finished loading up 3 different powders just to add some more anecdotal info to the thread.

My bad memory had me thinking I had some 2F Schuetzen, but turned out I only had it in 3F. But I did run across my stash of Goex 2F and 3F bought about 1990 or '91. Don't have much of the Goex 3F but about 8 pounds of the 2F. So I used the same Desperado bullet and set my powder measure to dispense 32gr each by scale weight, and a .030 vegetable wad.

Plan is to shoot 2 shots for fouling, then 10 shots over the chrono. In between strings I'll swab the bore and chambers with Ballistol/water and repeat.

Due to family commitments and pending weather, most likely won't get a chance to test till around Wednesday but will post up after.

 

[hawg]

I use 2F Swiss in cartridges. I don't get any hard fouling with smokeless bullets using a beeswax/olive oil mix. I didn't get a lube star with my 44-40 carbine but it didn't foul up. It might have with a longer barrel.

 

[woodnbow]

Then Desperado Cowboy bullets used to come with a relatively small capacity lube groove. If that design hasn't changed that lack of lube would contribute to the hard fouling you encountered.

I’ve never used any of the big lube type bullets so i imagine lube is just that much more critical than if I was. Still, using the super secret recipe lube seems to solve the problem for my bullets and the way I use them. (C&B revolver and long range rifle bullets.) I had mixed results with the old Maxi Ball bullets in various rifles and according to IdahoLewis, too much lube was the problem. He now lubes only the bottom groove on those bullets. I have so many other choices in bullets that I never saw the need to revisit them.

I am looking forward to Lane’s reporting after his next foray… all of this stuff is of course anecdotal and like the scientist said, “the plural of anecdote is not data.” But its interesting and keeps us out of the bars.

 

[LaneP]

Got a chance to test 3 different .45 Colt BP loads today. Early 90’s era Goex in 2F and 3F, and Schuetzen 3F. Most of this won’t be any surprise to aficionados. For me though, a couple interesting finds. Testing handgun was my Uberti Cattleman, 5-1/2" barrel.

Brass was new R-P. I also have new Win brass but length of R-P brass is much more consistent. With Win brass, about 15% or so are short and I would need to trim a batch up to get consistent bullet seating depth. There was almost no case length variation with R-P.

Primers were WLP, labeled “for use with standard or magnum loads”.

No drop tube. All charges funneled into the case, then a .030 vegetable wad, bullet seated to crimp groove and a firm roll crimp. Bullet was the Desperado Cowboy Action .452” 1:20 tin/lead with their lube described as “suitable for smokeless or black powder”.



I used a scale to set my volume powder measure to throw 32 grains of each powder. Of note, the 90’s Goex needed a little more measure volume to reach 32 grains, a little less volume when measuring 32 grains Schuetzen.

Chronograph set 12 feet from muzzle, target set at 15 yards. 12 shots each powder, with 2 for fouling followed by 10 over the chronograph. After each set, fouling was removed from bore and chambers with Ballistol/water mix, then a dry patch. Also, I decided to throw in a set of Black Hills smokeless 250 gr cowboy loads for comparison. Results:

Goex 2F (early 90's production)/32 gr	Goex 3F (early 90's production)/32 gr	Schuetzen 3F/32 gr	Black Hills 250 gr CB Factory
High 704 Low 649 Avg 676 SD 13	High 809 Low 756 Avg 774 SD 17	High 665 Low 627 Avg 646 SD 12	High 750 Low 695 Avg 725 SD 16

I don't know if the 10 shot, 15 yard groups (from rest) were me or the pistol, but when in doubt I always blame myself first until someone else shoots it. But it certainly looks consistent. POA was 6 o'clock on the black circle.



On follow up, I didn't notice any of the crusty fouling with these powders I did with Swiss 2F. Both Goex powders impressed me with how quickly the bore cleaned up. I only needed a few patches to go from jet black to traces of light grey. There were a few unburned grains of Goex 2F but nothing crazy. There was also incompletely burned powder with the Black Hills smokeless factory ammo. There was no sign of unburned residue with either of the 3F grades.

Another observation is that cases were remarkably clean on the outside when ejected. With Swiss, I had significant outer case fouling residue. Not sure what to make of that. Those were loads generating over 800 fps so I would think I was getting good gas seal.

I also didn't notice the same velocity decline with these powders I did with Swiss. Schuetzen was very consistent from first shot to last, and the last shot in the string was exactly 2 fps faster than the first, an impressive result. I believe the lower velocity of Schuetzen is attributable to reducing the powder dispenser volume slightly to maintain the desired scale weight of 32 grains. Someone loading volume for volume may notice less difference, and the consistency of Schuetzen 3F puts it near the top of list of powders I've tried so far.

 

[.45Coltguy]

This is all very interesting, as I'm toying with the idea of loading some BP in one of my .45 Colt revolvers; a Pietta "Gun Fighter, 1873 with 4.75" barrel.
Being that I don't know anything regarding blackpowder loading, First thing I'll ask is: Sounds like the 250gr rnfp coated cast bullets I have will not work, correct?
What would I need bullet wise? Once I get that figured out, I'll look at step two, which will be Goex FFg or FFFg. Thanks guys. Absolute new to this venture.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

It ain't the bullet so much as the lube. Coated bullets tend to leave that coating behind in the barrel making it a great pain to clean. Learned this from shooting them in my ROAs.

 

[hawg]

This is all very interesting, as I'm toying with the idea of loading some BP in one of my .45 Colt revolvers; a Pietta "Gun Fighter, 1873 with 4.75" barrel.
Being that I don't know anything regarding blackpowder loading, First thing I'll ask is: Sounds like the 250gr rnfp coated cast bullets I have will not work, correct?
What would I need bullet wise? Once I get that figured out, I'll look at step two, which will be Goex FFg or FFFg. Thanks guys. Absolute new to this venture.

Pretty much anything will work in a revolver. If you have factory lubed bullets you will have to melt the lube out and use something bp friendly. I use a mix of beeswax and olive oil. The more and bigger grease groves the better but the thin grooves of modern bullets will work fine in barrels up to 20 inches. You wont get a lube star at the muzzle tho.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I'd guess that coated bullets would be a bad nasty mess with black powder. For sure, cast bullets with lots of lube. I hear Goex is back on the market. In cartridges I don't think grain size makes that much difference, although 3fg is the go-to for most people. I used 4fg with good results in the .45 Colt.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Got a chance to test 3 different .45 Colt BP loads today. Early 90’s era Goex in 2F and 3F, and Schuetzen 3F. Most of this won’t be any surprise to aficionados. For me though, a couple interesting finds. Testing handgun was my Uberti Cattleman, 5-1/2" barrel.

Brass was new R-P. I also have new Win brass but length of R-P brass is much more consistent. With Win brass, about 15% or so are short and I would need to trim a batch up to get consistent bullet seating depth. There was almost no case length variation with R-P.

Primers were WLP, labeled “for use with standard or magnum loads”.

No drop tube. All charges funneled into the case, then a .030 vegetable wad, bullet seated to crimp groove and a firm roll crimp. Bullet was the Desperado Cowboy Action .452” 1:20 tin/lead with their lube described as “suitable for smokeless or black powder”.

View attachment 1172351

I used a scale to set my volume powder measure to throw 32 grains of each powder. Of note, the 90’s Goex needed a little more measure volume to reach 32 grains, a little less volume when measuring 32 grains Schuetzen.

Chronograph set 12 feet from muzzle, target set at 15 yards. 12 shots each powder, with 2 for fouling followed by 10 over the chronograph. After each set, fouling was removed from bore and chambers with Ballistol/water mix, then a dry patch. Also, I decided to throw in a set of Black Hills smokeless 250 gr cowboy loads for comparison. Results:

Goex 2F (early 90's production)/32 gr	Goex 3F (early 90's production)/32 gr	Schuetzen 3F/32 gr	Black Hills 250 gr CB Factory
High 704 Low 649 Avg 676 SD 13	High 809 Low 756 Avg 774 SD 17	High 665 Low 627 Avg 646 SD 12	High 750 Low 695 Avg 725 SD 16

I don't know if the 10 shot, 15 yard groups (from rest) were me or the pistol, but when in doubt I always blame myself first until someone else shoots it. But it certainly looks consistent. POA was 6 o'clock on the black circle.

View attachment 1172352

On follow up, I didn't notice any of the crusty fouling with these powders I did with Swiss 2F. Both Goex powders impressed me with how quickly the bore cleaned up. I only needed a few patches to go from jet black to traces of light grey. There were a few unburned grains of Goex 2F but nothing crazy. There was also incompletely burned powder with the Black Hills smokeless factory ammo. There was no sign of unburned residue with either of the 3F grades.

Another observation is that cases were remarkably clean on the outside when ejected. With Swiss, I had significant outer case fouling residue. Not sure what to make of that. Those were loads generating over 800 fps so I would think I was getting good gas seal.

I also didn't notice the same velocity decline with these powders I did with Swiss. Schuetzen was very consistent from first shot to last, and the last shot in the string was exactly 2 fps faster than the first, an impressive result. I believe the lower velocity of Schuetzen is attributable to reducing the powder dispenser volume slightly to maintain the desired scale weight of 32 grains. Someone loading volume for volume may notice less difference, and the consistency of Schuetzen 3F puts it near the top of list of powders I've tried so far.

View attachment 1172357

That is a beautiful revolver. I have an EMF "Hartford Model" that looks much like it.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

But its interesting and keeps us out of the bars.

Truth, but losing my license and not being able to ride my motorcycle keeps me out of the bars.

 

[LaneP]

That is a beautiful revolver. I have an EMF "Hartford Model" that looks much like it.

Thanks, ordered mine from DGW and so far liking it. I've also had a Ruger New Vaquero for a while (also in a 5-1/2" bbl). Recently I loaded up some more 250 gr lead Desperado Cowboy Action bullets but this time upped the charge to 34gr Schuetzen. When able I want to shoot both pistols side by side and see what if any difference there is accuracy wise with that load, along with chrono numbers.

 

[tark]

2f = weenie loads.
3f= standard ( today) loads
4f= "manly" loads

Mike

I have always heard that 4F is for .32s and priming the pan on a flintlock. That it can create dangerous pressures when used in the larger calibers and especially in a chamber that holds as much powder as a Dragoon.

 

[hawg]

I have always heard that 4F is for .32s and priming the pan on a flintlock. That it can create dangerous pressures when used in the larger calibers and especially in a chamber that holds as much powder as a Dragoon.

Maybe with the wrought iron cylinders of the original guns but I don't see a problem with modern guns.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I use it in 44/40 cartridges. It's definitely not mouse fart loads. I gave up using 4f in flinters years ago, whatever is in the horn goes in the pan.