Why 358 Win so unpopular?

[1stmarine]

That is very true but also companies make a lot of mistakes by not following through with consumers and enthusiasts. As we know with good marketing anything can be sold, even if it is a so so firearm or an anemic and inferior caliber. A good example is the whisper repackaged as the blackout.

Old spaghetti (throw it and see if sticks) and tail chasing marketing strategies rarely pay off and firearms manufacturers, specially the largest ones, really suck at this. The Remington/DPMS/Bush/Marlin group executive moguls are a good example of this. Their lack of empathy with their life long loyalists and customers is amazing to me. That is why smaller specialized companies are eating their market share. But that is a totally different subject anyway.

In any case there will be always shooters who understand ballistics and are going to do some study about facts in preparation for the purpose they have at hand.

 

[AKMtnRunner]

There's little "wow" factor working for it. It's very capable, really neat, and efficient. But from any perspective there's something else that's just a little better. For knock down effect, there are 375's or longer cased 35's with more room for heavier bullets. And those 375's and bigger 35's even carry that effect farther and shoot flatter. For economy, there's the 308 win that can arguably work just fine on anything the 358 win does well on, and the 308 rifle can shoot mil-surp. The 308 is also a great "she can enjoy shooting it too" gun. And if you want a little more punch than 308 there's the abundant 30-06. For handiness and no nonsense authority, there's 45-70 lever action. The 358 Win does a lot of things pretty well and well enough in the real world. But it's just not sexy enough to motivate us to go out of our way to custom make one or locate those one two obscure rifles that it's chambered for. Boring for the frill seekers and lacking just enough effective range (relative to the 35 whelen for example) to make the reliability seekers uncomfortable.

 

[akodo]

The 358 Winchester is a fine cartridge, but so is the 348 Winchester, 356 winchester, 350 Remington, and 35 Whelen.

35 Whelen gets talked about a lot, but not purchased much. Still, it's the 'leader ' in this class and viewed as a generalist cartridge. Unfortunately the others are viewed as specialty 'close in brush gun' cartridges.

The 348 winchester came out in a fine levergun, the model 71 which was an improved version of the 1886. But it came out in the middle of the Great Depression, which reduced sales, and interest in lever actions was already diminishing. Post WW2 lever action love faded even faster.

Lever actions were soon seen as 'fast shooting brush guns' and these heavy hitting 35 caliber rounds fired from something short and light had a ton of recoil, and the critters were falling just as dead as if hit by a 30-06 so no one was racing to adopt these. People in general had less opportunity to travel for hunts (less money, no internets to hook oneself up with a guide) and populations of brown bears was very low in many places with populations just starting to climb again, so less tags issued so the combination of a light handy gun and a powerful 35 caliber round wasn't something needed. If you liked leverguns sticking with a 30-30 or 32 WCF or 35 Remington made sense. Those who wanted a bit more could go for the 300 Savage.


Winchester's Model 88 which was designed to handle the 243, 308, and 358, used a box mag so spitzer bullets were good to go, had a shorter lever throw, and was easy to mount a scope on. In effect, they were making a lever gun that had all the features most bolt actions had but most lever guns didn't. But it was too late, the levergun had been cemented in people's minds as the brush gun, light, and using only moderate ammo. And so the Model 88 and it's 358 cartridge sank.

The one odd man out in this tail is the 350 Remington Magnum as it was from the get-go offered in a bolt action....but that bolt action was designed to be a light weight guide gun/bush gun so as with the other heavy hitting 35 caliber rounds, the recoil was more than most people liked. Plus the gun it came out in, the 600, was styled in a way that was far from traditional. And it too failed.

In all cases there are some people who really really really love the hard hitting 35s, including the rifles they were first marketed in, so these guns now demand a premium price. But the numbers still aren't enough to successfully bring these back in anything but small runs.

In the end, the heavy hitting 35s were killed off by timing, pigeon-holing of the lever gun in a certain roll, and pigeonholing these cartridges as 'thick woods guns, so make a handy, light, short barreled gun'

 

[tulsamal]

I love my Remington 700 Classic in .350 RM. Bought it new in 1985. It was the first "big game cartridge" that I ever reloaded. I've put a lot of rounds on targets at a range and put a lot of deer on the ground.

IMO... most people that have shot a lot of deer (or watched them being shot) believe that the larger diameter bullets kill deer better. You don't have to push the bullet as fast so you don't get a lot of destroyed meat. But the bullets usually still go all the way through and leave nice big exit wound for tracking. (Or usually just bleeding out while they do their inevitable 30-75 yard dash.)

You can just look at the lever actions rifles and 30-30 vs .35 Remington. The larger cartridge doesn't seem to have any advantage but lots of old time hunters swore by the .35 Remington.

I mostly just deer hunt now with the newer style Ruger Carbine in .44 Magnum. For mostly the same reasons. Don't have to drive the bullet over 3000 fps, nice wide bullet that still opens up even more, big exit hole, fast expiration of the shot deer.

I grant you I don't shoot things far away. I doubt I have ever in my whole life shot a deer that was more than 150 yards away. Most are 30-75 yards away. In the hands of a hunter who engaged their deer 300+ yards away, I'm sure the .300 Mags or 7mm Mags would do much better. I'm just not that person. I'm a gun collector that meat hunts the deer on my property to feed my family.

 

[akodo]

Rounds like the 358 win, 35 Whelen, 35 rem, 338 fed, 338-06 etc look better than their 30 caliber counterparts such as 308, 30-06 and 30-30 at the muzzle. Because there is less resistance between the bullet and bore it is possible to shoot the same bullet weights in the larger calibers a little faster.

There is also the factor that a wider base is mechanically more efficient for pressure exerted against it to be transitioned to work. There's a reason why we don't have 180 grain 243 winchester rounds. (of course if we did, the sectional density they'd have would make them penetrate like crazy!)

 

[akodo]

Middle Child Syndrome

It doesn't do anything that the .35Rem doesn't do if handloaded to it's (.35Rem) potential. Neither does the .358 out perform a plethora of other cartridges. (ie; .308, .30TC, 7.62x54, .30/06, .35Whelen, .338Fed, .350RemMag, ect, ect, ect.

I am fully aware that the 35 remington isn't loaded as hot as possible, but I think that it is a stretch to believe you can reload the 35 remington up to the same power levels as you could the 358 winchester.

 

[Nature Boy]

Good thread. Being a fan of the .358 I love hearing peoples opinions. There are around 30-40 deer I've encountered that would probably tell you they dont care for it very much, but they've long since been eaten and aren't available for comment

 

[ford8nr]

as I LOVE the round for knock down power at a decent range for hunting as well as it being able to take down anything in North America

So what have you actually shot with it to confirm it's superb power? On paper it looks to be a "good" cartridge, just like all the others in its class. I've never killed an animal deader then dead no matter what I've shot them with.

 

[1stmarine]

The 35 Remington can be loaded hot. Just check the same manufactures rounds like Buffalo bore and you will see how nice that round is but it doesn't come anywhere close to the 358.

Folks keep on bringing up the effective range and 308w which is awesome, no doubt, but I suggest to take a look at the test data posted before. Also check the available ammo not just from winchester and hornday that is rather mild for this round.

The difference is substantial therefore for many to consider the 358. Of course one could go with 375 and magnums but the whelen will take care of any task in this continent and many other places. The only places you will not be able to use the 358 nor the whelen is on Big 5 safaris where they require the 375 or even 416 as the minimum depending on the country and or animal reserve.
But please look at the data above before you start bringing up again the 308 outperforming or out thumping anything.

The Wow factor is relative. What is "Wow" for you might be "Nah" for me.

For everything else there is the RUM in 35 or 375. that will take down a navy destroyer if needed but better keep a shoulder trauma surgeon on the speed dial just in case.

A 225gr-250gr pill with 570 to 600 power factor is no small potatoes and those heavy partitions will brutalize any game we might encounter anywhere in this continent no matter the size. And they will take care of business at the ranges people shoot at 99% of the time. Of course the whelen and obviously many others, specially magnums will do even better but is it really needed?

I am attaching this again in case people are not reading the entire thread...



We already talked how brutal the 308w is with some 150gr -180gr bullets but if there is a desire for some extra insurance w/o going huge the 358 fits the bill and it does it relatively economically both in the bullets and powder spending bills. if you shoot 20 rounds a years this doesn't matter that much so go for the larger ones if that is what you like. As I said if one has long actions and tons of 30-06 the whelen makes more sense. Perhaps for someone who might encounter longer distances on average although both are very lethal further than most people can be effective in a real life ethical hunt situation. If there is long range involve customers will be demanding a well suited magnum cartridge that is the smart thing to do anyway.

But if one is an avid 308w shooter who maybe has a lots of spent brass then the 358W is a no brainer. Perhaps a 20" 358W AR upper that is economical and takes 30 seconds to swap. I do shoot both and have plenty of spent brass specially in 308 but if I wasn't a shooter of those, it would be easier for me to get free 308 brass than 30-06, just because the 308w is our service round and I find it in almost every recycling bin in the ranges I go to. For others might be different. Again it all depends on how much one shoots. Another thing, I buy hornady xtp bulk and FMJS as well as hp and sp from 147 to 180gr for my carry pistols and other things and this can be a very affordable way to shoot super flat in moderate ranges for practice and some good hunting if needed to.
So this makes a great way for people to do caliber consolidation. Perhaps you are a 9mm, 38/357 shooter already and can use bulk bullets from stock at hand.
The .356 and .357 value packs are great source of economic shooting that can yield nice practice round sometimes cheaper than the 308w itself. Just need to make sure the jackets do not separate because of the brutal speeds and torque forces involved but hornady and sierras seem to hold up pretty well even show some nice groups. Some folks also use the 30 carbine and blakcout light bullets for the 308 but the 308 with 147gr to 180gr can be equally affordable and double the power for whatever fun one has in mind.
In this case a lever or bolt is better as the faster powders will not cycle autloaders. AA1680/R7 is as fast as one wants to go with an autoloader. Most hollow points are problematic in autoloaders so better try fmjs.

So it is not all just big game hunting.

 

[1stmarine]

Check out the BLR.. available in 358W with some very unique design features. Very popular overseas.

There is a break down and the barrel extension & barrel (ar lug style) go back to zero every single time...

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/family.asp?webflag_=003B


I found a FAL rebarreled to 358W. Pretty cool...
That bear didn't know what hit him. Poor fellow.

 

[R.W.Dale]

35 calibers in general in the US have never gained much traction beyond "niche" guns.

For 99% of hunters out there 358 just doesn't add any capability to the killing equation over 308. Forget about all the numbers, graphs, ballistic charts and energy figures. Instead bear in mind that an animal only gets SO dead. If 308 has no problem whatsoever killing X game how exactly is 358 better at it?

Look at that other great 308 spinoff 243. People liked it because it shot flat, kicked less and was a capable enough killer, 358 on the other hand kicked harder, didn't shoot as flat and doesn't really make animals MORE dead than 308

I think it's pretty obvious why it never caught on.

I've killed medium game with cartridges ranging from 223 to 45/70 and honestly with proper bullets used within their effect ranges I've not found any of them lacking in killing ability. It's easy to get caught up in the minute differences in "high powered" rifle rounds. But the fact is there are dozens of cartridges over a wide range of calibers that in terms of hunting pretty much do the exact same things. Some are simply much more common and wide spread than others for reasons usually owing little to actual ballistics

 

[rcmodel]

IMO: the 358 Winchester is not popular because it was a proprietary round introduced in 1955 in the Winchester Model 70, and later the Model 88 lever-action.

That rifle was only made from 1955, until 1973.

And between the Model 70 and Model 88 combined?
Not a lot of either one were made.

They bring a 100% premium over other calibers today because they are scarce & hard to find.

It was only later that a few other companies like Savage chambered rifles for it.

It never caught on, because Winchester couldn't sell enough of them to make it more popular.
And didn't do much advertising to make it more popular.

rc

 

[1stmarine]

RW I think it does quite the opposite. It adds to the killing potential and makes the whole situation more error tolerant.
The effect of the 35 caliber bullets is comparable to much larger calibers but easier to tune up with a few bullets and according to the intended game. From instant broad wounding from 180gr SP and ftx to deep penetration yet broader channels than 308.
Game is rarely lost with many instant collapses and see through wound cavities. Hydraulic shock is a lot more obvious.
Not a real meat saver for white tail or smaller game that is for sure. one might chop a small deer in two half's. in this case the lither bullets are best.

 

[1stmarine]

RC,
I think you are right, the poor marketing and small rifle selection is something that contributed to the lack of sales. Also the ammo and image was never renewed from the old idea of a great cast bullet mini thumper that could not be much further from the truth. Just look at the modern premium ammo and the one winchester and hornady continue to sell.

Today everything is about marketing. We see POS calibers being sold like peanuts just because they are a 30 caliber and the average joe doesn't have a clue about the true ballistics involved in the +P+ carbine.

But as soon as it looks good on youtube and twitter call of duty style, we got to have it!

 

[R.W.Dale]

RW I think it does quite the opposite. It adds to the killing potential and makes the whole situation more error tolerant.



.

I have been in that situation and caliber cannot turn a bad shot into a good one or make up for poor marksmanship.

You put the bullets where it's supposed to go and a 358 doesn't do anything a 308 or dozens of other medium bore rounds won't.

Again a game animal only gets SO dead. More bullet doesn't make them deader.

 

[rcmodel]

Yep!!

And a lot more meat would be in people's freezers if they had never invented the belted small-bore Magnums.

rc

 

[GooseGestapo]

Those who doubt that the .35Rem can be loaded to within 100fps or less of the .358 have neither owned both, nor spent much time at the loading bench and shooting bench behind a chronograph with multiple examples of both.
My Rem. 760 in .35rem w/22" bbl actually would give 2,500fps with a 200gr Sierra RN over un-mentionable load of H322 (original lot#!), and deliver 3-shot clover-leaf groups at 100yds. That load is the hardest hitting load I've ever shot deer with, to include .300RUM and compressed-loads of IMR4064 under 400gr Cast-bullet from .45/70. Twice, I shot deer with it and believe I could momentarily "see daylight" through the deer due to the temporary wound cavity created by the blount, fat, fast expanding Sierra bullet.

According to Lee #2;
The .35rem has 2.85cc capacity. .358win 3.07cc .35rem is 93% of .358.
for comparison;
.308win 3.43cc .30/06 4.38cc 78%
7mm08 3.32cc 7mmx57 3.68cc 90%
We know that these are considered "near clones" as velocity and performance are concerned.

Note that Remington Custom Shop still catalogs a Rem. Mod-7 in .35Rem.

All this points out is what most already know. The problem with the .35Rem is that it's ancient. 1906... And with many, many weaker Marlin 36's (square bolts) around' not to mention the Remington semi-autos, and Savage M170 pumps (single lug lockup like shotgun), that factory loaded rounds are loaded to quote John Barsness; to "burrito fart" levels.

Neither can my .358 BLR handle the "atomic" level loads that Barsness uses in his Ruger and Kimber .358 bolt action guns. ie; 50gr plus of TAC.

Neither the .358 nor .35rem have the case capacity to handle the large charges of slower burning powders that the .35Whelen or .358NormaMag can swallow.

It's all "perception", or as I originally stated... Middle Child Syndrome; (he, ME!) has to really, really !!! stand out, to gain attention... Neither the oldest, .35win, and .35Rem. nor the "BABY", (AKA "LITTLE SxxT") .357mag... just the middle.... .358win...

 

[GAMEOVER44]

Well here's my 358.. might as well throw it out there sorry for lousy pic and you cant see the optional front iron for use with opitional pop up big-dot. QR mounts are used for quick access to irons. Pictured with 10 round mag.

 

[4sixteen]

Here's my 358 takedown BLR with a Leupold 2.5x Scout scope -

 

[GAMEOVER44]

I like that one whats the barrel length?

 

[4sixteen]

20" barrel. I load 250gr bullets at 2300 fps MV, or 310gr bullets at 2100 fps MV -

 

[GAMEOVER44]

nice thumper, I have a 22" Shillen barrel

Good choice in scope too, I went with a 3x Zeiss Terra for mine.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I have shot a pile of hogs with a .358 Win. I use 225gr Barnes TSX or 250 Gr Hornandy round nose. I can not honestly say that I can tell a difference in "knock down" or hit with a .358 Vs a .308 or a .30-06. When you move up to a .375H&H you start to see a noticeable difference in terminal force on a big hog, on smaller hogs it makes no difference. They react about the same to .308 etc etc.

My .358 is short, light and it wears ghost rings. I think it's about the perfect round for carrying when I'm cruising brush for hogs or guiding. It makes for a great carbine length thumper and IMO is nearly perfectly suited for iron sights. I use mine kind of like a the North American version of a PH's stopping rifle. I could do exactly the same with an iron sighted .308 rifle but I don't have a spare that doesn't have glass on it. So I have my little fun gun in .358 instead.

 

[357smallbore]

Its a very nice round. It should be more popular. At 250yds it is plenty of gun for any North American game. I'm a 06 man myself. But I would not hesitate to use or enjoy the 358.
348 / 358 / 356 / 444 are calibers I really like. Nothing wrong with any of them.

 

[MARKMALL]

I have a BLR in 358 and love it! It is a hard hitting round way better than the #'s suggest. I have killed a lot of deer with it in WV in the last 22 years.