Why DC will HAVE TO appeal the Parker decision

Status
Not open for further replies.
A fundamental right cannot be subjected to onerous regulation, be that via permitting, taxation, bureaucratic regulation (red tape), executive order, or other governmental aim intended to frustrate that right.

See the First Amendment lines of litigation for details on all of the above power plays having been frustrated by its defenders. There is still regulation of free speech and religious practice, but it is largely invisible in daily life and mostly concerned with the extremes (parade/protest permits, animal sacrifice, religious drug use, how much money is too much in the political process.)

A seminal case in preventing the taxation of a basic right is Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105 (1943) http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=319&page=115

This would seem to also argue against the NFA tax.

Of interest on the issue of the NFA's constitutionality is the following: even IF it was originally a tax, what does it say that the government has forbidden the collecting agency from accepting further tax payments (under 922(o))? This says VERY clearly to me that the '86 ban is purely regulatory/a ban in nature on a basic right, and that it is therefore unconstitutional. Result: 922(o) gets overturned...IF Parker is either unheld with comment, upheld without comment or cert. denied. The only bad result would be if it is overturned by the Supremes - with the explanation that the 2nd doesn't protect an individual right (I don't see it being over-ruled without comment - that just wouldn't/couldn't be done in a case involving one of the 1st 10 Amendents where the Court has a very spotty and empty record).

I personally see the Court taking the case (there is a conflict between Circuits on the 2nd) if it is appealed, and I see a very narrow upholding of the case (DC is toast on this issue-they're way beyond the pale). But the ONLY way to uphold it is to confirm that the 2nd protects an individual right. If that happens, 922(o) is next on the chopping block, and that ban is going to fall. If cert. is denied, 922(o) can and will still be challenged - and when someone is denied their approval the case will have to wind its way to the USSC. THEN we'll have a decision, even if it is by-passed in the Parker case. The best person to bring it is someone in the 5th Circuit, which has ruled in favor of the 2nd as a protection of individual rights, since the 5th incorporates several states which (unlike DC) permit the ownership of full autos and also have Class 3 dealers who can sell these firearms.

WRT the politics of '08 and the composition of the Court, I'm not terribly pessimistic. I don't view a Dem win in '08 as a foregone conclusion - who are the front-runners? Hillary, who has 40+% of the people in the passionate "I hate her guts" column, which is hardly conducive to being elected, and Osama, errr, Obama, who has all of 3 years experience in the US Senate (no executive experience at all), and who is profoundly liberal. No, this is a generally conservative country, and the big city libs aren't a shoe-in even though the media loves them and constantly shills for them. Further, as was mentioned by others, who is most likely to retire (or die, let's be honest)? Stevens, age 87 and extremely liberal, and Ginsburg,
age 74 and with cancer, who is also extremely liberal. Thus, even if Hillary wins, how will that improve the Court for the anti-gun side? Further, Parker would have already been heard and decided by the time of the election next November - so the '08 politics wouldn't directly impact this case in any event.
 
If DC pols are smart about this, they'll let sleeping dogs lie, conform to the Court ruling and live with it. This way they still don't have to deal with anything more than citizens buying guns and keeping them at home. They can still discourage people from buying by making people go thru background checks, finger prints, etc. The bottom line is they have to let people buy and keep guns as long as they conform to the law. Can't ban them and can't put unreasonable restraints on the ability to use a firearm for self-defense.:)
 
If DC pols are smart about this, they'll let sleeping dogs lie, conform to the Court ruling and live with it. This way they still don't have to deal with anything more than citizens buying guns and keeping them at home. They can still discourage people from buying by making people go thru background checks, finger prints, etc. The bottom line is they have to let people buy and keep guns as long as they conform to the law. Can't ban them and can't put unreasonable restraints on the ability to use a firearm for self-defense.

If the DC pols don't appeal and the Parker case remains as the state of the law in the DC Circuit, this doesn't make the antis' problem go away, it only postpones the day of reckoning. You see, then you'll have 2 Circuits, the 5th and DC, saying that the 2nd Amendment protects an individual right. Then you have an even better case for someone like CTDONATH to

pay for a new $1200 M4 "wit da switch", file my Form 4, and take the subsequent rejection to a DC court, replacing every occurrence of "pistol" in Parker with "machinegun".

...except that he takes it to a District Court in the 5th Circuit. If he wins and the feds appeal it, it'll get to the USSC eventually. If he loses, he brings it there, and it has to be heard. HAS TO. You will have a very clear violation of an individual, basic right by the feds (not a state and not DC). Oh, and the Feds won't be able to credibly say that the $200 NFA tax wasn't paid, since they passed a law forbidding its collection (so it ain't a tax, it is a ban). Thus, 922(o) will die, new production full autos will be priced at 1/10 of today's artificially-inflated prices, and hundreds of thousands or millions will be sold in a few years. I'd even be less than surprised if the various import bans on firearms aren't swept aside (in a different case, of course, but based on the same legal logic) - after all, if you have an M-4 made here that is capable of being legally purchased, what possible justification could there be for the same person to not be able to purchase the same model that was manufactured in a different country under license?

Then, when the country doesn't turn into Darfur or Bagdad, the antis will no longer have anybody but the blissninnies believing the "blood in the streets" argument anymore.
 
Re Supreme Court Justices and who appoints them, Dremocrats or Republicans, please note the following. Once appointed, the justice is there for as long as they wish to remain. Additionally, there are pro-gun Democrats, just as there are anti gun Republicans. Finally, is there any way to predict, really predict, how any justice will vote on a particular case, I think not, so we have here the proverbial double edged knife, one that could cut either way, or so it seems to me. Meanwhile The Court seems to have been busy ducking Second Amendment cases. Is there anything that says they will not so continue?
 
If DC pols are smart about this, they'll let sleeping dogs lie, conform to the Court ruling and live with it. This way they still don't have to deal with anything more than citizens buying guns and keeping them at home. They can still discourage people from buying by making people go thru background checks, finger prints, etc. The bottom line is they have to let people buy and keep guns as long as they conform to the law. Can't ban them and can't put unreasonable restraints on the ability to use a firearm for self-defense.
Until someone brings suit that the 2a doesn't stop at thier door, and so the lack of a carry law is infringing. Then we get CCW, since you either have to allow that, or allow open carry. And I doubt they'd be interested in that. You further sue later that excersising your right is protected, so they can't charge you when you shoot the bad guy. I suppose they couldn't stop a lawsuit, but that could be managable.
 
The Court seems to have been busy ducking Second Amendment cases. Is there anything that says they will not so continue?
1. Most 2nd Amendment cases contain red herrings that screw up any attempt to get a clean answer. Standing issues, willful criminal situations, overlapping & obfuscating laws, etc. all can complicate a case to the point that nobody really wants to draw an RKBA ruling from it, as the result will be so muddied as to at best be dangerously unstable. Point: SCOTUS wants a clean case, and until Parker there really hasn't been one.

2. At some point the issue will be unavoidable. With sufficiently different conclusions between otherwise equal jurisdictions, SCOTUS must intervene and resolve the issue. Point: DC and 5th Circuit courts formally recognize the "individual" argument, and the others formally recognize the "collective" argument ... with consequences that SCOTUS cannot ignore.
 
Until someone brings suit that the 2a doesn't stop at thier door, and so the lack of a carry law is infringing.
and...
Until someone bring suit that the logic of Parker protecting handgun possession applies equally to machinegun possession, and so the lack of BATFE accepting registration of my new M4 is infringing.
 
Update from WashPost:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/16/AR2007051602781.html

Gun Ban Ruling Puts Fenty on the Spot
Going to High Court Would Be Risky

By Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 17, 2007; B01

D.C. Mayor Adrian M. Fenty must make a risky choice about the District's gun ban: defend it before the Supreme Court or write new, looser laws governing how city residents can keep guns in their homes.

As he wades into a high-stakes debate over the Second Amendment, the new mayor of the nation's capital faces the possibility that the city could lose the case and undercut decades of hard-fought gun-control legislation across the country.

Gun-control advocates are quietly acknowledging that Fenty (D) is in a difficult spot. Across the country, many of them and their attorneys have been meeting in conference rooms to analyze the potential damage that could be done nationwide if the D.C. law falls apart. Some fear that an adverse Supreme Court ruling could lead to more gun lobby challenges and the collapse of tough gun regulations in New York, Chicago and Detroit. Other potential casualties include federal laws that require background checks for gun buyers or ban the manufacture of machine guns for civilian use.

"Making the right choice is going to be a very difficult decision," said Joshua Horwitz, executive director of the D.C. based Coalition to Stop Gun Violence. "Despite all the rhetoric about 'We're taking this all the way to the Supreme Court,' you have to really think this one through. Everyone is cognizant of the fact that this is probably the high-water mark for Second Amendment cases."

Fenty and the gun-control community have faced this dilemma since March 9, when a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit struck down the D.C. law as unconstitutional. The decades-old law bars all handguns unless they were registered before 1976. The appeals court keyed on a section of the law that bars people from keeping handguns in homes but did not address provisions barring them from carrying guns outside their residences.

In the appeals court's view, the D.C. law is much too sweeping.

At issue is how to interpret the Second Amendment: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The ruling marked the first time that a federal appeals court had struck down a gun regulation on the grounds that the amendment protects an individual's rights to bear arms. Other courts have found that it specifically protects the ability of states to maintain a militia.

Last week, the full D.C. Circuit refused to reconsider the city's arguments -- leaving the Supreme Court as the only place for the District to appeal.

Legal experts say gun-rights activists have a lot of advantages at this time in history and in this specific suit, Parker v. District of Columbia, filed in 2003 by six D.C. residents who said they wanted the right to own guns.

First, the District law is considered one of the most restrictive in the country, gun law experts say, and one of the more difficult to defend because of some seemingly illogical requirements. For example, one part of the law requires owners of registered guns, including shotguns, to disassemble them or use trigger locks -- basically rendering them useless in an emergency. The appellate panel singled out that provision as flawed.

Next, the belief that the Second Amendment protects individual gun rights has been gaining currency among conservative and liberal legal scholars.

And the Supreme Court has grown more conservative and, it appears, friendlier to the gun lobby's view of constitutional rights with the addition of Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr., who as a member of a lower court declared that the machine gun ban was unconstitutional.

Those factors help explain Fenty's uncharacteristic reluctance to take a firm stand at a news conference last week to discuss what happens next. Reporters wanted to know whether Fenty would petition the Supreme Court, which analysts say most certainly would take the case, or rewrite the regulations to target guns in a less restrictive way.

"It's a little early to say which way we're going to go," Fenty said at the news conference. "We will weigh everything."

Now that the full appeals court has declined to review the case, Fenty has 90 days to decide whether to petition the Supreme Court.

Other cities and states are closely tracking what happens. Leaders of several, including New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg (R) and Massachusetts Gov. Deval L. Patrick (D), declined to publicly comment on what they thought Fenty should do, or talk about their level of anxiety about the fate of their own laws.

Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, was quite direct: "We're very concerned about this case because if it's allowed to stand, and if it becomes the law of the land, it places in jeopardy just about every other gun law you can think of."

But Helmke also said: "The D.C. law is an easy one to shoot at. Factually, it's a tougher one to get behind and defend. Background checks and assault weapons ban -- you can defend all day long. . . . Why is this the one we're going to be taking up to the Supremes?"

Helmke said he wouldn't advise the mayor to avoid the Supreme Court challenge. He said several gun-control experts worry just as much about the cases the gun lobby might be able to win if the city doesn't keep fighting.

But dire consequences are not expected by some legal experts, including Sanford Levinson, a noted constitutional scholar and liberal-leaning professor at the University of Texas who made news when he wrote that he, too, believed the Second Amendment protected individual rights to bear arms.

Levinson said the D.C. Circuit opinion "went out of its way" to stress that reasonable regulations, such as registration for owners and screening for criminals, were appropriate. He said he doubts the current Supreme Court would go further than that to affirm that demand for reasonable restrictions.

"The court seemed to say, 'Look, you need to come up with a better reason than D.C. did,' " Levinson said.

Robert A. Levy, the lawyer who spearheaded the D.C. residents' challenge in the Parker case, said Fenty has a duty to the people of the city and should not be making tactical decisions to outmaneuver gun-rights groups in the courts. "Their obligation is not to engage in strategic lawyering," Levy said.

Fenty said he will make his decision with the safety of D.C. residents "foremost" in his calculus.

"The residents of the District of Columbia expect us to fight aggressively to make our laws as strong as possible," Fenty said. "We ultimately believe we will prevail."

Staff researchers Meg Smith and Julie Tate contributed to this report.
 
Hmmm. My position seems vindicated by Washington Post reportage. That's a dubious achievement.

It does, however, remind me that we have a very savvy forum community.
 
The Post Is Distracting Us Again

The article said:
And the Supreme Court has grown more conservative and, it appears, friendlier to the gun lobby's view of constitutional rights with the addition of Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr., who as a member of a lower court declared that the machine gun ban was unconstitutional.

Alito was not commenting on the 2nd amendment, nor was he commenting on whether or not a regulation masquerading as a tax is actually a tax. He was commenting on the source of almost all federal power, the commerce clause, and here is what he said:

Is possession of a machine gun inherently more "economic" or more "commercial" than possession of other firearms?

The whole commerce clause argument doesn't have anything to do with the 2nd amendment and gun control. Or does it?

It has everything to do with big government in general, and gun control in particular. If you want a candidate for President who has publicly identified something as "not interstate commerce" and therefore not subject to federal regulation, I have found exactly one of those: Ron Paul. Until I find another, he has my vote.
 
And by the way

Alito's comment was made before the Stewart case decided that a homegrown machine gun for personal consumption actually IS interstate commerce. If he made the same statement today, he would be advocating that the Court overturn the precedent established in the Raich case. Also, if he made the same statement today, it would still have no bearing at all on Parker, which is about the 2nd amendment, not the commerce clause.
 
The ruling marked the first time that a federal appeals court had struck down a gun regulation on the grounds that the amendment protects an individual's rights to bear arms.
Did I hallucinate the whole Emerson thing? I thought those mushrooms looked a little funny, but hey, I was hungry! ;)
 
Did I hallucinate the whole Emerson thing? I thought those mushrooms looked a little funny, but hey, I was hungry!

IIRC the statement that the Second Amendment protects an individual right was dicta, and not in the text of the actual ruling.

What no one seems to remember is that even if DC decides not to appeal this issue isn't done. There's a case out of Ohio in the Sixth Circuit that was backed by the same folks; I can't remember the name of it unfortunately. The facts of the case are materially the same as the Parker case, and the Sixth Court of Appeals found for the "collective right" interpretation in that one. So, if Parker doesn't go forward, that case will since now there is a disparity among the lower courts.

I'd prefer to see Parker go forward as it's much easier to defend a winning position.
 
Thus, 922(o) will die, new production full autos will be priced at 1/10 of today's artificially-inflated prices, and hundreds of thousands or millions will be sold in a few years.

I'd be one of the first in line to buy a select fire M-4. Why? because I'd have the option of using burst auto fire or semi-auto in one weapon. Ah, just like the good old days.
 
I'd be one of the first in line to buy a select fire M-4.

Me, too; my reasoning has more to do with getting as many of these guns on the registry as we can, so that we and our advocates can say "you know, there are 1 million full autos in the public's hands, up from only 200,000 5 years ago, and there still isn't anyone who's been shot with a machine gun. Maybe the idea of limiting what guns someone can own should be given a decent burial?"

I'd personally like either a Tommy Gun (new production - I don't need to buy the collector value of the thing), or a new Colt Monitor or BAR. Very effective weapons with a lot of history behind them. Of course, I've fired a suppressed MP-5 and it is a thing of quiet beauty.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top