Why do neo-liberals hate guns?

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Anyway, the same can be said about your friends over that the ACLU ...

Of course - that's why I am a member of the ACLU and the NRA.

But what the heck does the ACLU have to do with the question you asked? You asked about why some folks don't see the correlation between the RKBA and other civil rights, and I proposed an answer - that no one sees the RKBA spokesmen or groups acting as though there is a correlation. Then you see the ACLU in my sig, and attack the ALCU. What does that have to do with the question you asked?

I happen to think that the ACLU in general is very wrong about the 2nd Amendment - I think that one chapter, maybe Texas was good, but most are dismally bad. In my opinion, they should have been filing a brief with Heller - protecting the 2nd Amendment.

Mike
 
KBintheSLC - we obviously disagree on a few things - that's what this country's about. I understand that my viewpoints are most likely the minority here, and I'm not trying to make waves. Regardless, I'll defend your rights to the best of my ability, even if I utterly disagree with your point of view (not that I necessarily do).

"Sadly, I feel that our society in America is divided between the 1A and the 2A people... forgetting that they all go hand-in-hand."

^ I couldn't agree more. If push comes to shove, we're all in this together - inalienable rights are, by definition, inalienable - regardless that we may disagree with some of their repercussions.

Patriotism isn't supposed to be easy.

We may disagree on the particulars, but I think we're all damn proud to live in this country, and work together as best we can to make it better.
 
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I think you are absolutely right Mike. Sadly, I feel that our society in America is divided between the 1A and the 2A people... forgetting that they all go hand-in-hand.

You and I see eye to eye on this.

But I think they are all related. Without due process, the government could throw a gun manufacturer in jail with no recourse.

If some future administration decides to send "Letters of National Security" to all gun shops and sporting goods outlets about all gun and ammo purchases, what does that do to the RKBA?

If some future administration decided to limit free speech so that people can't promote dangerous ideas like "shall issue CCW", then what does that do to the RKBA.

I think all of the rights work together - the ratifiers of the BoR got it right.

Mike
 
FLAT1INE - " I also believe (and I'll wager most liberals would agree) that fully automatic weapons have absolutely no place in civilian hands.

I can't believe that anyone honestly "needs" an MP5 or an Uzi or a Thompson. I can understand why you'd want one - firing a full auto MP5 was awesome, but personally I can't back it."

You have the right to believe whatever you wish, but if you consider that when the Government starts telling you what you need and don't need... and ordering you to obey, you are no longer living in our Constitutional Republic. You are living in a Marxist Socialist Fascist society.

You know what Marx and Lenin said about "need," don't you?? (And I don't mean Groucho and John.)

Never forget that any law, any regulation, any rule, any restriction, is always ultimately enforceable at the point of Government's guns.

If your opinion were based on reality, re automatic firearms, then over these many years, there would have been thousands upon thousands of shootings and murders committed by people owning automatic firearms. There are several hundred thousand automatic firearms owned in the U.S., by legitimate civilians, who never abuse their Right to own these firearms. In fact, there have been so very few abuses by people using automatic firearms that there is no way to really quantify a statistic.

Here in Idaho, many people own them legally. I've shot quite a few with the Idaho Automatic Weapons Collectors Assoc. members at their various "shoots." Not one automatic firearms owner here has misused an automatic weapon.

I'm wondering, as you are a "liberal," how you justify having the Government bureaucrats and Government police punish hundreds of thousands of innocent people... for the crime of being honest???

L.W.
 
Leanwolf -

What I'm saying, and have said, is something completely different that what you're responding to. I've said that personally I don't believe anyone needs a fully automatic weapon - this is nothing more than my personal opinion. I don't write the laws, and I don't enforce them, all I'm saying is, that as a liberal, I, personally wouldn't vote for legislation to (or help elect to office someone that would) loosen restrictions on fully automatic weapons.

That said, and with all due respect, you're putting words in my mouth.

I'm not bringing up statistics, I'm not talking about shootings or murders with automatic weapons, and I'm certainly not assuming that owners of automatic weapons are irresponsible, violent, or abuse their rights in any way.

I'm stating my opinion that I don't see a need, nor expect circumstances to arise in which automatic weapons are needed. Yes, I've heard the arguments about what happens if TSHTF, but for all of our sakes, let's hope I'm right. If you want to prepare for such a scenario, I'm not going to stand in your way, I just won't vote for it.

I'm very curious though, on how I'm justifying the Government's punishment of innocent people - I'd very much like to know to what you're referring.

- Erik
 
nutter, you can't legally introduce lethal force into a situation...you can only respond with it.

Flat1ine:
a well regulated Militia
regulated has another lesser-known dictionary meaning, go check it out...:)

Further, as others have said, it's more about freedom than need.

At distances past...say...20 yards (off the cuff), controlled semi-auto fire is much more practical than full-auto. If a maniac wants to kill a room full of people, why not just use a bomb?

[To the Dark Tower banter...I would say that a more apt metaphor would be:

You can't say the last 4 books are on the same level as the first 3...unfortunately :(]
 
FLAT1INE "... all I'm saying is, that as a liberal, I, personally wouldn't vote for legislation to (or help elect to office someone that would) loosen restrictions on fully automatic weapons."

Does that mean that you would vote for a politician who would tighten the restrictions on automatic firearms, or ban them owned by honest citizens who had never abused their right to own them??

As far as putting words in your mouth, in my opinion, when a person says "You don't need whatever object I don't like," and "I'd never vote for a politician who'd loosen any restrictions on you," then that is tantamount to a tacit approval of, or a step toward the object being eventually banned by the Government.

Afterall, when liberals elect liberal politicians who hate our Rights, it can only follow that the liberals will approve of the politican's ideology, even if it violates the Constitution.

I spent way, way too many years around a whole conglomeration of "liberals" when I lived in Los Angeles, hearing their definiton of "needs" which should be allowed by the Government, not to know what is meant by "You don't need that object."

I've talked with sanctmonious, self righteous "liberals," who have stated, "No one needs a gun and I don't think anyone should be allowed to own a gun and I think they ought to be confiscated by any means necessary."

I would then ask, "By any means necessary?"

Then several of those "liberals" would answer, "Whatever it takes."

Perhaps your experiences with your liberal friends are different.

L.W.



I do not need liberal -- or conservative -- politicians telling me what I need or don't need, at the point of their guns.

L.W.
 
Why do neo-liberals hate guns?

I've said it a thousand times on here. Not all liberals are anti-gun, not all conservatives are pro-gun. Not all republicans agree in gun rights, not all Democrats believe in gun control.

I know and have known plenty of people that would qualify as liberal Democrats who enjoy owning and shooting guns. I myself am far from conservative and not much of a republican, however I own plenty of evil looking guns.
 
I think a lot of it has to do with trusting the government to take care of everything. Trusting it to redistribute money fairly, pay for health care, protect you, etc. A need to own guns means the government has failed to protect you. Of course, the simple fact is that they just can't be everywhere at once, there aren't enough people.

That makes me wonder...Are there any vegan gun-owners?
I'm not a vegan, but a vegetarian.(And a very conservative one) Just donate the meat to organizations like hunters for the hungry.
 
I suspect that many liberals are unswayed by arguments from people who support the RKBA because so may people who support the RKBA defend no other right.
According to gallup, over 60% of Democrats (I know it's not supposed to get partisan, but I didn't see one for "liberal") want more gun control. Most(Over 50%) republicans and independants don't.
when American citizens and others are denied due process and/or tortured as part of the war on terrorism.
I don't believe any U.S. citizens were held at Guantanamo. Enemy combatants are not U.S. citizens. I don't believe prisoners of war need due process. (I am aginst torture though.)

I suspect that many liberals are unswayed by arguments from people who support the RKBA because so may people who support the RKBA defend no other right.
Which side is pushing the fairness doctrine?
 
The Power Seekers: These are the Schumers and Feinsteins ... these are the leaders of the movement who know guns aren't bad but know they can't implement their other diabolical plans against us as long as we're armed (this is actually a very small group ... even most anti-gun politicians are just Partisans, Dupes and/or Hopolophobes, only a very select few are trying to enslave us).

Small group? I don't think so! Besides, they are accomplishing their agenda a little at a time. With Obama in office, it will add fuel to their cause. We need to constantly monitor their actions.
 
Leanwolf -

It sounds like you're really, really mad at me for a position I'm simply not taking. I feel like I've said this before, but I'll say it again - I'm not saying you don't need a fully automatic weapon, I'm saying I don't think you need a fully automatic weapon. I'm NOT going to vote either way on the topic - all I'm saying is that I disagree with you. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

So far, IMO, you win the award for the angriest post. I don't know what exactly you've got against me, or other liberals, but keep in mind that I've offered you no quarrel. I'm doing my best to keep an open mind, and see things from the other side of the fence. You just seem pissed.

You've been dismissive, derogatory and condescending, and frankly I feel it's unwarranted. Unlike yourself, I've made no sweeping generalizations about you or people that share your views.

I learned quickly since joining here to leave my preconceptions at the door. I've stated an opinion, a personal belief that I act upon as I see fit - for what it's worth, I'll fully support your rights to do the same.

Can't we just leave it at that?
 
HeavenlySword -

To start, that was just creepy.

Secondly, I'm not saying there aren't more expedient ways to accomplish horrific things. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain that there are things "worse" than fully automatic weapons - that's so far off the mark, I'm not even sure we're talking about the same thing anymore.

I'm not stating a fact, I'm not passing a law, I'm not even trying to change anyone's mind, I'm just continuing the dialogue started by the OP, and trying to bring my perspective into things.

Chill out man, you're giving both parties the heebie-jeebies. :what:
 
Dude, im pointing out automatic weapons can be useful in some situations, and while they can cause damage, alot of things in society are much worse

and you can't ban making it without banning stuff like household items

which would transform our society to a very... facist? sort of society
 
What did Heavenly Sword say which was obviously excised from the thread?

Whether or not you agree with what he said I don't think it's very "high road" to hinder the exchange of information by completely deleting it.
 
At the risk of (*gasp*) responding to the opening post....

Many liberals are pro-gun or at least neutral, either on intellectual grounds, because of current or past military service, hunting, defense, or other exposure. Those liberals who are in favor of gun control laws usually have little or no experience handling guns, are afraid of guns, and place considerable faith in the transformative power of criminal law.

Some base their views on guns on a broader nonviolence or just peace agenda driven by their faith.
 
What I'm saying, and have said, is something completely different that what you're responding to. I've said that personally I don't believe anyone needs a fully automatic weapon - this is nothing more than my personal opinion. I don't write the laws, and I don't enforce them, all I'm saying is, that as a liberal, I, personally wouldn't vote for legislation to (or help elect to office someone that would) loosen restrictions on fully automatic weapons.

Actually, according to the intent of the Founding Fathers we do need automatic weapons. The 2nd amendment isn't about hunting or target shooting. It's about giving the people the means to resist the government should it become tyrannical. One way or another we'll have automatic (or most likely burst fire) weapons if needed, either buying them legally or taking them by force.
 
flatline,

Please be advised that a considerable effort has been made to obscure or obfuscate the truth by seeking to foster the false impression that the right to keep and bear arms concerns hunting and sports shooting.

The right to keep and bear arms derives from our duty to retain the basic means necessary to defend our country and our liberty. Certainly it is true that the actual defense of our national borders is normally delegated to the professional military. But we, the people, are responsible for the defense of country and liberty, and the Second Amendment is crucial to our performance of that duty.

Liberty cannot be protected if the people have been stripped of the physical means of doing so, i.e., an effective and credible conventional warfighting capability.
 
imho....

libs have, in their enthusiasm for advancing racial equality (you decide whether this is altruistic or expediant) tore into LEO institutions for all kinds of abuses and endorsed the rights of criminals (who are all victims of 'the man' or 'the system' after all) over and above those of the victims of crime (murdered citizens don't vote after all).

But if they can't blame crime on the persons that perpetrate it, then they have to find something else.

Much easier to blame inanimate objects and stir up public fear against 'street sweepers' and 'assault weapons'.
 
I've said that personally I don't believe anyone needs a fully automatic weapon -

Suppose I said that personally I don't believe anyone needs to vote, and only people selected by the government should be allowed to vote.

The right to keep and bear arms, like the right to vote, is a civil right. When you start imposing a need test, it is no longer a right.

And if you can do that with the 2nd Amendment, you can do it with the 1st Amendment. The Bill of Rights is a set, break on and you break them all.
 
Many liberals are pro-gun or at least neutral,
That's not true, and I actually have data to back it up.

In 2007, 68% of Democrats wanted stricter gun laws, while 30% didn't. Only 42 and 43% of republicans and independants, respectively, wanted stricter gun laws, while 57% of republicans didn't and 54% of independants didn't.

Sadly, I feel that our society in America is divided between the 1A and the 2A people.
The same side that wants the "assault weapons" ban also wants the fairness doctrine. Guess which side? (The liberals, for those who aren't familiar with this.)
 
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