No guns for Muslims, Liberals?

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The heart of liberty is our right to live, act, and do business as we please so long as we don't take the same from others. That has been grossly distorted over the years to now mean we can't do what is perceived to withhold or violate someones rights due to our refusal to supply or otherwise accommodate them.
These men in the story can go to any number of other shops and get what they want and the shop owner can go broke refusing service to prospective customers. That man can refuse service to people who have cigarettes in their pocket if he wishes or put up a sign NO GUNS ALLOWED.
Remember the story a few years ago about the cabbies at the airport in Minneapolis and taking people with dogs or alcohol?
 
This guy has the right to say what he wants to and decide who to teach handgun classes to. I believe the civil rights stuff applies to businesses over a certain size. He may be small enough that he can choose who comes in his business, who he sells to, teach.

Was it smart of him to do this radio ad? Who knows. He may have gotten even more business/support from the local population if the locals agree with his viewpoint. Politicians do the same games and everyone gives the politicians a free pass.
 
If he was refusing to sell guns to "rednecks", absolutely no one would be making a fuss, and rednecks would be laughing about it, while buying elsewhere. You have to be be taking about a "protested" class to catch flack from the media.

The only thing that bothers me is he can make gun owners look bad the way the media likes to jump on any little thing to make us look "stupid", "racist", "mean", "bloodthirsty", etc etc to try to scare the general public to drum up anti gun support.
 
At the same time, if I thought someone was a threat to society for ANY reason, I would refuse to teach them.
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And then because of your refusal do you think you should be run through the national press ringer as being a bigot and face a civil law suit and the ACLU? The guy is a jerk no doubt or maybe just over cautious. The question to me is, does he have the right to refuse his services to who he chooses? I say yes and the reason is not relevant to me.
 
And then because of your refusal do you think you should be run through the national press ringer as being a bigot and face a civil law suit and the ACLU? The guy is a jerk no doubt or maybe just over cautious. The question to me is, does he have the right to refuse his services to who he chooses? I say yes and the reason is not relevant to me.
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This isn't based on religion or political affiliation but a percived level of instability (of a single person, not group), or unsafe gun handling. That is a HUGE difference my friend.

I believe the civil rights stuff applies to businesses over a certain size. He may be small enough that he can choose who comes in his business, who he sells to, teach.
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You may believe that, but it is incorrect. You cannot violate civil rights because you are a small business owner.
 
won't provide instruction
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I failed the basic reading comprehension test here and mistook that he was refusing to sell firearms to anyone that was a Muslim. Since the FFL is a federal license it is could be subject to having anti-discrimination rules applied on the basis of religion. If he's simply refusing to train anyone he thinks is a Muslim then he's making a decision that isn't subject to the same level of federal control.

BTW, how many of you know that one of the plank-holding Staff members at THR is a Muslim?
 
We keep missing that freedom is for everyone, and freedom is allowing the other person to be free to do their thing, as long as it does not hurt someone else.

I say this guy should be free to exclude whoever he wants...it is his loss, not ours.

I say the Moslems, Jews, liberal or whoever else does not agree, should be free to take their business elsewhere, along with any Christians that understand freedom. Just don't support the guy. He is irrelevant.

As long as this guy is not peaching that only Christians should have a gun, I really don't care what he does, he will not get my support..

I am not liberal, and I am a Northern European Lutheran and more of a Ron Paul type libertarian. Not really happy with any of the Republocrats.
 
This isn't based on religion or political affiliation but a percived level of instability, or unsafe gun handling. That is a HUGE difference my friend.
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It is the owners speculation just at a different level, we lump felons into one group when it comes to firearms, is that right when a large percentage of them have no violence in their background? I am of course playing the devils advocate and even if it was legal I doubt that I would sell a gun to a felon. I know he would probably be able to move on to another shop and get what he wanted the same as the men in the story.
My point is still the owners right to conduct his business as he sees fit. If there were a law that stated a certain religion could not own or deal in firearms then there would be a violation of rights but that is not the case.

I like to think I am more of a true libertarian and that means rights and privledges cut both ways.
 
I find in ironic that you guys are so concerned about people's 2nd amendment rights, but you don't care about1st amendment rights. You HAVE to take the good with the bad. What the guy said in his ad is one thing, how he actually conducts his business is another. I don't see anyone up in arms over the Dr. Pepper 10 ads that say it's only for men.
This particular issue is only relevant because it gave liberals a reason to twist their own panties in a bunch because they only care about selective rights.

And just because something is a law doesn't make it right, or do you say you would support blacks only counting ad 3/5th of a vote?
 
I think the guy made one mistake, and that mistake was advertising the fact that he won't service muslims or obama voters. An FFL reserves the right to REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON. Please somebody with an FFL speak up to confirm this.

The problem here is that the guy said he won't teach muslims or obama voters his class. He has the right to feel, believe and live his life how he chooses. He even has the right to criticize others' beliefs and actions the same as we have to criticize his.

That being said, I'm tempted to go to texas and buy a shotgun from his shop just so that I can shout out "Praise Allah!" after he finishes completing the 4473 and the purchase is finished.
 
HGUNHNTER,per your post #25 I was referencing your assertion of what the woman was saying by your explanation in post #23.
I was saying nothing else.
In other words I dont agree with what you said in post #23.
Frankly the guy is somewhat of a blow hard but I certainly would not get in knots about him.
Travel the world and you will find this type of bigotry is a universal human condition.
It is not some sort of Americana invention.
 
And this is why we have anti-discriminatory laws folks.

Or then, you would have bigoted folks refusing to provide a service to....atheists, Christians, Jews, Blacks, Whites, Latinos...etc etc etc...

If you have a business license issued by the state, you can not discriminate based on race, creed, color, religion etc etc.

Now, the liberal thing, whether it was a joke or not, I think you could actually do, but you would possibly be opening yourself up to a lawsuit in our litigious times.

Those saying 'he has a right to refuse to provide his services to anyone he chooses' do not understand that we do not live in a 100% free society. There are laws that you must obey or be willing to lose your business license. *shrug*

Now, he can probably skirt the law by saying, this was all a big joke blown out of proportion, and he would never actually discriminate when choosing to provide his services...but if he actively refuses to provide his services to a group of individuals based solely on race, creed, color, religion, etc etc, he wont have a business license for long.
 
I find this very interesting as it illustrates one of many conflict of values society faces.
The BOR protects citizens from govt. tyranny, but does it offer citizens protection from other citizens?

To what degree can the USA tolerate intolerance?

Clearly, each citizen has the right to associate with whom they please (or not please). They have the right to voice their opinions, however distasteful.

However, what about citizens operating a public business? If this gentleman can discriminate against muslims and "liberals", can the local liquor store owner bar blacks, indians, jews or rednecks from buying booze?

IMHO, an individual citizen's COTUS rights are most important, but that doesn't extend to a business that offer products or services to the public, no matter how small or large. This nation endorsed discrimination for several centuries and we know how harmful it is. If Mr. Keller's class is endorsed by the state, then he needs to teach the class to all its citizens.
 
I have a business. It has a public restroom. It is available for those who are pro-life. If you are pro-choice, you must do your business elsewhere.

Free speech?
 
The guy is an idiot, but it's not my, nor anyone else place to tell him how to run his business.

My personal opinion is that he's a complete idiot, as is anyone else with a similarly bigoted mindset, but I'd rather he have the option to say it, rather than be forced not to.
 
There is no doubt we have some work to do before we can consider ourselves 100% free, I think the government compelling us to do business in their manner is an abomination. Check out John Stoccel (a former liberal) and how he feels about regulation over free market.
I admit if I stop at a shop and want to buy something and am refused I will be a little miffed but I will go to another shop and spend my money there. I am a builder and can't imagine the notion that I might be compelled by my government to work for someone I don't care to no matter what the reason. There is a word for that kind of government.
 
I turn business away quite frequently. Not for the reasons Keller turns away business, and I'm sure he doesn't turn business away for the reasons I do. We're in different businesses. So, I support his choice. He is well within his rights.

Government is even more discriminative of who it does business with. The Feral(Federal) Government won't do business with you if you don't have certain levels of insurance; meet certain requirements about whom you hire, how much you pay whom; and requirements concerning a balance of color, sex and ethnicity; etc., etc., etc.

(Funny thing though - it makes no difference to Uncle Sam whom he collects money from.)

If those flight schools who taught those hijackers were a little more discriminatory toward the behavior of those students, the events of 9/11/2001 and the subsequent war might not have occurred. I know someone already mentioned this, but it does bear repetition. (In my hindsight, I am compelled to say, however, that something was bound to happen sooner or later anyway. It would have simply been different.) When I say "discriminatory", I do not refer to the race or ethnicity of the hijackers, I refer to their behavior.

This anti-discrimination bent we've been on in this country has been carried to the extreme, and folks are just afraid to discriminate against anything. I can see getting sued for slander for yelling, "STOP! THIEF!" at the guy running away with your purse or wallet. After all, you did call him a thief, didn't you? DIDN'T YOU ? ! ?

I applaud Keller. (Nice historical gun-rights name!)

Woody
 
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It is his right to refuse someone from a handgun course he teaches on his property.

Now I think it is misguided and his interpretation and belief that Democrats and Muslims cannot make prudent decisions and whatever misguided belief he personally holds about Islam may not be correct but his 1st Amendment rights guarantee him the right to make those statements.

Now we may dislike his comments, they go a long way in once again stereotyping firearms owners and his rationale about Muslims is bigoted, I am not a Muslim btw but I have served shoulder to shoulder with some who wear the same uniform as me and have fought for our country, and have fought for the rights that protect this individual to make whatever statement he wants. I do not practice their faith, and I personally disagree with many of its stated beliefs, but to refuse Muslims instruction on the basis of their religion alone is wrong, but once again its his course and its his property where he teaches it, so be it.

America guarantees you the right to be an idiot, this guy just lumped himself in with the rest of them.
 
IMO, the guy can say whatever he wants... it just puts his ignorance on display for everyone to see. It is obvious he doesn't know many people of the Muslim faith.

I live next to, and work in, the largest Muslim population outside the Middle East, Dearborn Michigan. Our experiences here vary greatly from those of this gentleman in Texas but, again, he has a right to say whatever he wants, and run his business however he wants.

I doubt the liberal and muslim masses of that part of Texas will be beating a path to his door in any case.
 
Just so everyone knows Mason Texas is located in the middle of ranch country in central Texas aka the Hill Country and has a small population.
Having been there countless times I can tell you most of the people are upright hard working folks.
 
The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
Businesses are primarily places of public accommodation. That means they are in business to accommodate the needs of the public. They actively invite and seek the patronage of the public and therefore are subject to the same anti-discrimination laws that protect workers seeking employment or promotion.
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In my business I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, and have at times. He has the same right.
 
I'm just going to jump in and say that it's stupid and bigotted of him, and makes all gun owners look bad.

I know businesses can't discriminate against classes, and I have no idea what the requirements or exceptions based on size are. I do know either way that it's just plain wrong to intentionally discriminate based on class, race, sex, or religion, and can honestly say that I would refuse to shop anywhere that proudly claimed to do so, and would be proud of helping to contribute to them inevitably closing down should it be caused by lack of customers.

ETA: I have NO problem with a business refusing service to an INDIVIDUAL based on how they act, or even just a basic gut feeling about that ONE person. I don't care if they happen to fit into a certain class, as long as it's the individual, not a group, and so long as you don't do it to every single individual that happens to belong to that group.
 
The Bill of Rights only constrains the actions of the government. The guy is free to be a bigot and a fool. I am free to choose never to do business with him because of it. That's the way America works. I hope he goes out of business.
 
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