Why has LE drifted away from 9MM?

[bigfatdave]

Weevil, I do occasionally carry a .32 when I can't have a gun. But if the criteria for ET's selections is "bigger is better" then the big five-oh is bigger than fo-tay. Because I understand that my protective hardware is to get me OUT of trouble rather than being a device enabling me to seek out gunfights, I don't worry about much beyond being able to deploy the weapon and apply lead to a target as needed. Muggers don't carry calipers to measure bore size, and neither do the idiots who get into shootouts with cops.

.355" --> .4" --> .45" -->.5" ... ... whoop-de-do! Differences of five hundredths of an inch!

Everyone gets so worked up about a zero point zero five inch difference, but does anyone go up another twentieth of an inch? Nope! The point is that a handgun is a bag-o-compromises, and they all suck at causing involuntary stops, and the endless, pointless, idiotic, myth-steeped, opinion-driven, fact-deficient, debates on one caliber over another will never end, whether it is discussion of the military handgun caliber selection, po-po handgun loadings, carry guns, or that old standby "home defense" ... the focus will ALWAYS be on the hardware and the software will always be ignored, because the advice of "go out and get some damn range time, idiot" is just too simple for online debate or even in-corpus conversation. Everyone's looking for a magic bullet to blow scary people out of their shoes just like in the movies, nobody wants to go to any trouble training or even getting used to their selected gun. Everyone is an expert in the exact hardware used at every event, and the po-po should have selected a different bullet weight or caliber because every beat cop takes a lot of time selecting their duty weapon instead of being issued one and qualifying only when required, right?

Eh ... screw it all, cops should be armed with whatever they get at gun buybacks, including the ammo that comes in the guns. They can stop wasting my taxpayer dollars chasing the feebs hardware choices, or buy their own hardware and qualify to MY standards with it.

 

[Weevil]

Well I agree bigfatdave, handguns are indeed "compromises".

Still you know what the man meant about a larger heavier bullet being superior, especially if it doesn't lose too much velocity in the equation.

I mean come on, sure the 50AE has a more massive bullet but it also has some massive disadvantages like size of platform, and of course capacity, and bullet selection.

However those same differences are nowhere near as extreme between the .40 and 9mm. They use the same size platforms, same types of ammo and generally you only lose a couple of rounds of capacity but you do get a larger heavier bullet with the same or even a higher velocities.

Now personally I prefer the 9mm because of the better control and I just can't get used to that twisty-torquey recoil of the .40, but I can certainly understand why there are those who prefer the heavier bullets of the .40, they are an advantage over the 9mm.

 

[Matt-J2]

I try to keep in mind every time this comes up, there's always plenty of footage of the 9mm(or whatever) failing, and to go with that is the assumption that the next step up or two would have succeeded. No evidence, but the assumption is always there.
I'm not saying there's no point to .40/.45/et al; heavier bullets certainly have advantages. Doesn't mean they'll always succeed where the 9mm fails, however.

 

[LaTiratrice]

Is this one of those caliber debates I've been hearing about?
I work in a hospital and I don't recall anyone telling me that someone who is shot by a smaller caliber has been disabled less than someone who's been shot by a larger caliber. They usually all end up in the ER.
Silly debate really.

 

[toivo]

New York State Police went from 9MM to .45 GAP in 2006 after several officers were killed in gun battles even after the bad guy had been hit. It isn't clear whether the problem in those incidents was caliber or shot placement or both. The arguments can go on forever, but the only things that are certain are the following:

• A badly-placed shot from a larger caliber is better than the same badly-placed shot from a smaller caliber.
  
• A well-placed shot from a larger caliber is better than the same well-placed shot from a smaller caliber.
  
• A well-placed shot from a smaller caliber is usually better than a badly-placed shot from a larger caliber.
  
• A well-placed shot from a larger caliber is definitely better than a badly-placed shot from a smaller caliber.

 

[Manco]

My understanding based on experts that I have read, including Doctor Roberts(DocGKR), is that the latest offerings in defensive 9mm loadings are comparable to 40 and 45 in performace.

That would be true as long as expanding 9mm bullets have diameters that cross over the point of diminishing returns. But is the latter really true? I mean, wouldn't a bullet that is a foot wide and penetrates a foot deep be more effective?

The biggest difference is that 40 and 45 do a better job of barrier penetration than 9mm. With officers having to deal with things like car doors, windshield glass, etc., the 40 and 45 make more sense.

It's not so much that the larger calibers penetrate barriers better, but they do tend to be deflected less when penetrating at any angle besides perpendicular. The difference seems to be significant--with the larger calibers you'll probably hit quite near where you're aiming even through a windshield, while with 9mm it is quite possible to completely miss a human-sized target with perfect aim.

Regarding the actual penetration of hard, dry barriers, with the best defensive loads in each caliber 9mm appears to perform better than .45 ACP and about the same as .40 S&W. .357 SIG beats them all, which is not surprising as it is more or less .40 S&W with a smaller bullet cross section. That said, in the FBI test protocols, which are widely considered rather tough and fairly realistic, .357 SIG performs no better than .40 S&W terminally (and often worse) after penetrating the specified barriers--it's only if you really need to penetrate thicker, stronger barriers that this caliber begins to shine.

Let's clarify something a 9mm and a 380 auto bullet are exactly the same diameter .355

The difference is the 9mm is a heavier bullet with a 2mm longer case (holds more powder) thus it has more power

see: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_difference_between_a_9mm_caliber_bullet_and_a_380_bullet

So stating that going up in caliber is actually false. Power yes but not caliber

To clarify my use of terminology, when I (and I'm hardly the only person here who does this) say "caliber" I mean the type of cartridge, not the diameter of the bullet; in this case, a larger caliber would be more "powerful" in some way, such as using more powder, a larger bullet, and/or higher pressure. While I'm normally pretty strict on how terms are defined and used, the numerical "caliber" names of cartridge types correspond inconsistently to the diameter of the bullets in question anyway, so "caliber" has for some of us come to mean the type of cartridge. When I mean bullet diameter, I say "bullet diameter" because it's far less ambiguous. And of course in this case, "9mm" implies 9x19mm Parabellum, as opposed to the other "9mm" cartridge types.

Nothing that you said is wrong if you define "caliber" as bullet diameter, but that's not the only definition, and the historical inconsistency in the naming of cartridge types with regard to bullet diameter, I feel, promotes confusion when "caliber" is used to refer to the latter. Then again, my more colloquial/glib use of "caliber" here also potentially caused some confusion, so maybe we should forget about "caliber" and say "cartridge type" and "bullet diameter" instead.

 

[Manco]

Is this one of those caliber debates I've been hearing about?
I work in a hospital and I don't recall anyone telling me that someone who is shot by a smaller caliber has been disabled less than someone who's been shot by a larger caliber. They usually all end up in the ER.
Silly debate really.

Should we all therefore use .22 LR? I bet that most people could shoot it better than .38 Special, let alone 9mm, which gives it an advantage over larger calibers. Your implication is that there is no difference in terminal effectiveness, so using anything larger, as most of us do, would be silly. Is that what you're trying to say?

 

[LaTiratrice]

Should we all therefore use .22 LR? I bet that most people could shoot it better than .38 Special, let alone 9mm, which gives it an advantage over larger calibers. Your implication is that there is no difference in terminal effectiveness, so using anything larger, as most of us do, would be silly. Is that what you're trying to say?

Well, nooooo. That's not for me to say. I was just commenting on the caliber debate that I've been hearing about. I thought that was clear.
I'm just going according to what some medical professionals have told me about the effect they've seen in gunshot wounds. Probably not surprising but most of the gunshot wounds they get in the ER are from 22's. Some of these don't survive.

 

[tackleberry45]

my apologies gents, my intent on the post was not yet another caliber discussion.

 

[LaTiratrice]

I don't see how this thread could have gone anywhere but into a caliber debate because you asked why police "drifted away" from the 9mm. No place else for it to go IMHO!
Actually they haven't drifted away from it because I know that's what my husband carried.

 

[Weevil]

Yeah if you ask a question about a caliber it usually will become a discussion about calibers.


Why is that a bad thing?


How are we to ascertain the advantages and disadvantages of the various calibers unless we discuss them and share our experiences, knowledge, and opinions???


Just because we don't agree that doesn't mean it's wrong or sinful to discuss them.

 

[tomwalshco]

Great point, Weevil. Because of liability issues, you never get the real poop from law enforcement agencies.

Have to rely on videos being released and it astonishes me when I see one, with 2-3 cops shooting, that the perp stays erect for so long. Even in summer with nothing but a t-shirt on.

Matt Dillon always got 'em with one shot. Maybe we should be re-thinking the 45 Long Colt as a super defense load...

 

[f451]

The 9mm idea was you would have more shots to bring down a target, hence, you had more chances with officers of less than grand shooting skills. This is going to make a lot of officers on this discussion mad but they know this to be true.

The training for police officers gun skills is lacking and not as encouraged as it was in the past. Its not politically correct to "want" to go practice your shooting. This makes you a gun toting neandrithall in the eyes of the liberal minded people in the US.

Also, the 9mm was really forced on the military and the the pricing of the hi-capacity 9mm is less than a good quality 45

 

[Mr.Davis]

In my opinion, the switch away from 9mm was largely due to a few high profile shootings where the bad guys didn't play nice and immediately roll over dead after being shot. Combined with local hearsay that inevitably gets passed around between cops, it caused those cops to lose trust in their 9mm weapons.

Here's the thing - as we all know, there are an almost incomprehensible number of physical variables involved in shooting a person. Range, angle, point of impact, the bullet's shape, bone density, muscle mass vs. fat, and more. Beyond that, there are even more "soft" variables like aggression, drugs, adrenaline, the will to fight or flee, the will to live, and more.

Since police shoot so few people, all things considered, then it's impossible, even when wringing every last detail out of a shooting, to make definitive statements about the stopping power of a particular load or caliber. There are so many meaningful variables that it's impossible to control for them all and isolate what really matters.

What I'm saying is that despite all the qualitative data and quantitative data that can be marshalled, it's still pretty dang hard to prove that any pistol round is that much deadlier than any other. We have evidence that a .357 Mag is probably more likely to stop a baddie in one shot than a .380ACP, but it's not definitive - a lot of our application of the data we have is theoretical. And as already stated, every shooting situation is different.

Since the natural inclination of humans after a tragedy or failure is to "DO SOMETHING!" the caliber gets a lot of the blame. 9mm could have put down 99 out of 100 thugs with one shot stops, but if that one exception resulted in an officer's death, or a pitched, ongoing battle like in Miami, then it would be a scapegoat in the after-action report.

We know 10mm and later .40 S&W were born out of the 9mm's "failures", but we've all heard the stories of .40 S&W failing as well. I recall one story (don't have a link, sorry), where a bad guy survived more than a dozen hits with a .40.

I guarantee that within 20 years, .40 will be on its way out, to be replaced by .357SIG or the newest wunder-cartridge due to some series of high profile failures or hearsay, much like what happened to the 9mm.

Just my penny's worth.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

gc70 writes:

Now, everyone uses the .40 S&W with confidence ... until an unusual situation occurs in which the new standard proves to be inadequate.

The factors regarding wounding effectiveness are better understood than in 1986, however the mechanics of producing an incapacitating wound remain the same – the bullet must damage vitals critical to immediate survival to quickly stop an attacker. The FBI experience in 1986 was the result of inadequate penetration performance.

All failures to stop are the result of a bullet not damaging vitals, either because it stopped short of vitals or its path through the body missed vitals.

PLACEMENT + ADEQUATE PENETRATION = WOUNDING EFFECTIVENESS

DavidE writes:

It [FBI Miami] was a monumental HUMAN failure on the agents part on many levels.

There were tactical errors for sure. However once bullets started flying Agent Dove scored a perfect hit early in the gunfight. Unfortunately his bullet did not penetrate deeply enough to pass through Platt’s heart and disrupt its ability to pump blood. Afterward Platt went on to shoot and seriously wound McNeill, Mireles, and Hanlon and shoot and kill Grogan and Dove.

Agent McNeill also scored a good hit early in the gunfight on Matix which temporarily incapacitated him. Although Matix eventually regained consciousness there’s no evidence he kept fighting afterward. This too was the result of a penetration failure.

The agents got good hits early. They performed well during the gunfight. They placed their bullets superbly. But placement is only half of the equation. Adequate penetration is the other half. The bullets failed to achieve adequate penetration.

 

[gc70]

The FBI experience in 1986 was the result of inadequate penetration performance.

I recognize that 9mm penetration was inadequate to incapacitate in Miami in 1986. And the FBI subsequently adopted a penetration standard that would have produced incapacitation in Miami in 1986. My point is that when there is inevitably another high-profile failure to incapacitate, the standard will be adjusted to address that failure.

 

[Tomcat47]

AMEN!

Trying to compensate for inadequate firearms training and poor shot placement with a more powerful cartridge.

And to replace with a 40 S&W! What a bizarre series of events!

I would much rather have a 9mm than a .40 S&W
( The greatest Cartridge failure of the century! )

 

[David E]

There were tactical errors for sure.

And some BIG ones were made before the first shot was fired.

Proper tactics would've had an entirely different outcome, at least, for the FBI

 

[REAPER4206969]

( The greatest Cartridge failure of the century! )

The .40 S&W is unarguably the most successful pistol cartridge in more than one hundred years.

 

[00 Buckshot]

One point that has not been addressed in this thread is the liability of over-penetration by the 9mm round. Over-penetration is considered a huge liability for law enforcement. Each officer is responsible for all rounds leaving his or her weapon. In America, the law enforcement community is held to a higher standard regarding the safety of innocent bystanders. This is not a consideration for soldiers in the military where "collateral damage" is more acceptable.

The 9mm bullets used in the infamous FBI Miami shootout functioned as designed with regard to expansion and penetration (keep in mind, no over-penetration either). However the bad guy was not incapacitated. The FBI conducted extensive analysis of the details surrounding the Miami shootout. Bullet testing was conducted afterwards and now, some 25 years later, the .40 S&W round is the preferred choice for law enforcement.

 

[MikeNice]

00 is there a case of modern JHP rounds in a 9mm over penetrating. I hear people talking about "over penetration." Yet nobody has ever explained how 12" of penetration from a 9mm is more troublesome than 12" from a .40S&W.

A 9mm FMJ will pass through a person. So will a .38+P FMJ or lead nose. I'm pretty sure the .40S&W with increased force and cross sectional density would do the same in FMJ. That is why nearly every police force uses the JHP round. It creates drag and slows the bullet faster. Thus it minimizes the chance of a through and through.

 

[areagan]

NYPD and many other large department still use 9mm, what's the big deal?

 

[kev778]

To clarify my use of terminology, when I (and I'm hardly the only person here who does this) say "caliber" I mean the type of cartridge, not the diameter of the bullet; in this case, a larger caliber would be more "powerful" in some way, such as using more powder, a larger bullet, and/or higher pressure. While I'm normally pretty strict on how terms are defined and used, the numerical "caliber" names of cartridge types correspond inconsistently to the diameter of the bullets in question anyway, so "caliber" has for some of us come to mean the type of cartridge. When I mean bullet diameter, I say "bullet diameter" because it's far less ambiguous. And of course in this case, "9mm" implies 9x19mm Parabellum, as opposed to the other "9mm" cartridge types.

Nothing that you said is wrong if you define "caliber" as bullet diameter, but that's not the only definition, and the historical inconsistency in the naming of cartridge types with regard to bullet diameter, I feel, promotes confusion when "caliber" is used to refer to the latter. Then again, my more colloquial/glib use of "caliber" here also potentially caused some confusion, so maybe we should forget about "caliber" and say "cartridge type" and "bullet diameter" instead.

Didn't mean to put you on the defensive Manco. What you said is spot on when it comes to confusion of caliber and cartridge sizes and thank you for the detail of your explanation.

I was just pointing out to everyone that the "bullet diameter" of each are exactly the same and I think some may see the number 9 and by nature think that is bigger than the number 3 in 380. But the hole they each make is the same it's just one will have more power behind the other.

 

[00 Buckshot]

MikeNice, I'm not familiar with a particular case of over penetration. I merely brought up the point because it had not been discussed to this point on the thread. I believe the fear of over penetration by the 9mm was a factor in ammunition selection and contributed to the negative outcome of the FBI Miami shootout.

Any bullet can over penetrate depending on what part of the body is struck; arms, legs, neck, etc. Good hollow points in center mass of a target should not though.


areagan, there's no big deal here. Just people talking about the 9mm not being as prominently used by law enforcement like it had been in the past. Yes, the 9mm is still used by many agencies, but not as many as 25 years ago.

 

[wow6599]

The .40 S&W is unarguably the most successful pistol cartridge in more than one hundred years.

And it should be the 10mm..........