Why I don't have Ducktails, et al

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Tuner,

Having grown up as a Marine Corps brat, with an Infantry veteran of Korea (wounded twice as a machine gunner with the old Browning light .30) and Viet Nam as a Dad, one who, during his 21 years of active duty, taught at Lejune, Paris Island, Pendleton, and Okinawa I can well understand the origins of your "attitude". :neener:

To my Dad, there is no better combat rifle than the M1 Garand (box magazines were proved inferior in the BAR), and no better pistol than a USGI 1911A1... he's held and fired my more modern versions of Browning's design, but doesn't see the need for any modifications since the A1.

Of course, I spent my career in the USAF with a different set of issue weapons and have formed different opinions. My three sons all carry Glocks, but I'm not sure if I had any influence there... :evil:
 
Thanks for the tips. It’s refreshing to know that some premium packages are still available. As for myself, I am a cranky, stubborn old reprobate who is well fixed in his opinions. Consequently I am more likely to build something for myself then avail myself of someone else’s services. However your worthy advise may prove helpful to others. Thank you for posting it.
 
"Arched or flat MS housing?"

Actually, I have no interest in recracking that old chestnut above, but I'll bet some of y'all will use it as an excuse to make this thread go an extra two or three pages..ya windbags!:evil: Anyhow, on the parts options already under discussion, got little in the way of strong preferences, save using 3M tape/checkering vs. not. Have spent enough time on the "battlefields" of IPSC, IDPA, etc under wet/dirty conditions to become averse to smooth front straps.
 
Flat backstrap, slimline grips, short trigger and hi-ride beavertail, cause I got normal palms and stubby fingers, need the trigger reach.

LW cause I carry it everyday and every ounce helps.

Novaks cause I like the wide rear aperture and, surprisingly, they STILL hook on my belt when I cram that thing in there. (and lower my wind resistance when doing my "hidden dragon-style" flying :D )

Checkered front and rear because (surprise) rain, sleet, snow and mud I don't drop its full-sized, steel-framed, identically-set up brother (gloved or not, you do wear gloves patrolling, no?) and still get the same draw because, by god, I practice.

Trigger job for a nice 4 pound, enough creep to feel it, break and I'm done.
 
He passed away last year never owning a car with power windows or power locks........"you can get trapped in there."

I'll bet a Dane Burns full house gun that he didn't die trapped in a car because of power windows and locks, did he? :neener:
 
Tuner ol' boy we agree on just about everything...............including the dogs we own. Except mine has a 'Border' attached to her...........

Anyway I grew up in L.E. work researching all the gun greats...........Cooper, Jordan, Keith, Smith, and a few others. Then of course have added my own experiences to the mix as well.
I'm fortunate to be a state L.E. firearms instructor and have been able to receive free training from some of the above greats. The most memorable of course is the 'Colonel'. High strung, surprised he hasn't had multiple heart attacks........anyway he & I got along real well because of our philosophy about 1911's He was surprised that someone so much younger than he had the same opinions..........okay about 99.9% of them anyway.

I've never taken your threads as anything but informative. I've responded to many a thread about trouble shooting and you always seem to come in behind me and go deeper with the subject. I guess you have a way with those things. You explain things out alot better than I, and I still don't take offense. Me............work on 1911..........get pay check. Not sure how somone could take you for anything else, but that's life.

I've been in 3 on duty shootings, taint nice but one must be prepped for it if you're going to do that line of work. My philosophy has always been "Look at the best L.E. gear you can afford........then get the better stuff, because some day your life will depend on it"
There's way too much gimmick crap out there, stuff that has no redeeming value whatsoever. Anyway..........here's my take on your ideas on 1911 'schtuff'

Grip Safeties - I do like the BT, DT, or whatever T you call them..........okay so we agree on 99.9% of stuff. To each their own. I've not had a problem obtaining the same consistant grip out of the holster. 3-5,000 repetitons will solve that. With any gun that one expects to use for defense, practice with it...........then do it some more. That gun should be an extension of your arm. Then you won't need the rear sight.

Front Strap - Yes leave mine smooth. But like you, I do like the factory Colt wrap around rubber grip with the pepple like texture. I've got a set on my SS Colt duty gun. Just enough grip without too much glue hold. I also have a SA Loaded which has the Ahrends tactical grips.........the type with the checkering angled on the bottom of the grip. I've left the front strap smooth. No problems with grip. Got back from my Firearms Instructors seminar 2 weeks ago. The weather was about 100 degrees everyday. Even with sweaty hands........no problemos.

Sights - My 3 shootings were 15yds, 10yds, & 4 feet. The first 2, I had time and used my sights. The last one (4 feet), no sights, no time......the shot went exactly where I was lookin'. At his jaw jackin' mouth,......lower teeth.......just left of center. Which means if you practice enough with a given gun, you'll do the same.
Rule of thumb........if your target is bigger than your front sight, don't bother.......you won't have time to. If your sight is bigger than your target, better get on them.
I like a good front sight for a flash picture. As soon as the front sight hits the target, the hammer is a droppin' We're talking combat shooting here, no games. Not worried 'bout 20 rounds at 10yds covering the area of a pin head. A'int got time for bullseye stuff, but make sure ya get the vitals!
I like any of the good combat sights out there on the market, I've tried most of them. I've got Wilsons on my SS Colt, and the Novaks (came with) on my SA Loaded. I've also tried Heinie and Brown, like them both. But the front sight is the most important, the rear is just there for the longer shot. All of my rear sights are blacked out, so they don't draw my eye to them.

Serrations - Huh? What? What are they good for on a combat gun? They are on my SA laoded, but then I didn't have a choice.

I'm not into bells & whistles, just things that make a good combat gun (the 1911) into a great one. As Cooper would say........"git yourself some good sights that you can pickup on, a smooth solid trigger and have it so reliable that it will feed and extract empty brass.........with or without dirt"

I like good combat sights..........yes the rear one too. A good trigger 5+lbs please.
A narrow extended thumb safety. I do alot of shooting, and those Gi's aren't big enough for me to get a constant contact. And when going thru some of the classes I go thru, comfort on the thumb helps. Same for the BT grip safety. After about 50-70 rounds of hardball with a GI GS, the web of my hand starts getting an imprint of the tail. We're not talkin' about hammer bite, just an imprint. So Tuner, if you've got one that doesn't leave an imprint let me know.......send me one......I'd like to try it. A funneled mag well. I've not tried the added mag wells, I just open up what's already there. Grips, see above........
Full length guide rod..........uh not needed, but I like my spring to ride on something.
I like a flat MS housing with the Ed Brown Snakeskin job. Its less than checkering, which if doing extended range time won't leave basket weave on your palm. It has the right amount of grip..........for me. Kinda like the factory Colt rubber wrap around grips. The sakeskin may seem to some as "flashy" or "Bells & Whislte" stuff, but its nothing different than checkering or serrations on the back strap, just a different style...........to each their own.

So there ya go. All my likes are based on .......obviously what I like, but more important to me........what has worked in actual duty use.........my own and with other L.E. folks.
Which is probably why I've got 3 1911's sitting on my bench with their owners hounding me to get them done. L.E. people want me to build theirs like mine, and who am I to turn them down.
I like to express to others why I do certain things, and I also like to hear from others what and what hasn't worked. I'm always open in listening to something new...........so come on..........light up this thread!
 
re:

Well dang, 9 By..I didn't know. Tell the old salt Semper Fi. I lost an uncle at Frozen Chosin. The vets of that hellhole known as "Land of the Morning Calm" never did get the recognition they deserved. At least we who did
The 'Nam got cussed at and insulted...They just got ignored.
_______________________

Wichaka...The good Colonel liked to keep things simple, because if
it's simple and it works, it ain't stupid. Hence the criteria for the
GSP..."Everything you need and nothing that you don't." I tend to
agree because..."The more gadgets it's got, the more Murphy it gets.

As for the question of presentation...or draw...there are two basic
ways of accomplishing a strong-side draw. If the hand moves over the pistol from the front and hits the butt from the topside...the checkering
and the ducktail will make no practical difference in consistent hand position...at least in my experience.

BUT...if the hand moves on the gun from underneath and scoops it up
as it passes...as with the Jordan method...it makes a very distinct difference. This is my preferred method because it's smoother. Smooth
is fast. The drawback to that method is that it requires a LOT of practice,
because the gun is grabbed with the hand already moving. If your fingers
miss the gripframe, you might as well cut and run. It also requires a lot of
refamiliarization in order to retain the skill...and I'm willing to do it in order
to give me that quarter-second edge.

To all who get the impression that I've "Preached"...or to those who have
gotten "Cross-Threaded"..I offer my sincere apologies. This was an opinion thread that invites open discussion and debate. That's why I
titled it "Why I don't have Ducktails" rather than "Why YOU shouldn't have
Ducktails". The former suggests an opinion while the latter gives the impression that I think everybody is a dummy for not doin' things my way.
________________________

Kruzr! You mighta nailed it there...Old heads don't like change, but we often have to admit that sometimes the young'uns do have some good ideas. I happen to like power windows and door locks though...and while I love the Garand, its shortcomings are painfully evident if we study the matter at any length.

Cheers all!

Tuner
 
Said by Kruzr

All the new 1911's specified for military and LEO usage have beavertails, low profile Novak type sights and many have front strap checkering.

Not all military units that carry 1911's are using checkering. I know of one that is using plain ol' grip tape. From what I am told, wherever their hand needs to make positive contact on whatever firearm it is, gets the grip tape treatment.
 
Hand Tools

I think this is an excellent thread and enjoy all opinions - especially those that coincide with mine! :neener: Also want to note that I consider Tuner a font of knowledge and would never deign to think he was talking down to anybody. He's a suthin gennelman, suh!

IMHO, after much trial and error as all you have surely undergone, the 5" Series 80 Enhanced Colts fit my build specs almost to a "T". Yes, it's got a spade type grip safety that's ugly as the product of incest but it does the job. I am not going to bat for the dinky Commander GS or the swoopy Buck Rogers types that make it impossible to uncock one handed. I do think the 1/4" radius on the frame ears is the way to go so you can swap out GSs as you see fit rather than the pointy ears as built by the venerable Moses.

I also will go on record as saying the way the late model Colts have been dehorned is a nice change. There is no need to cut yourself or your clothes on knife sharp edges. I bought an XS model and it had uniformly beveled edges, about 1/16" all around and very professionally done. Much more user friendly than the old "War Horses" everybody (including me) venerates.

One thing I will say is when you are being shot at the last thing on your mind is the features on your pistol. I will go to bat with whatever comes to hand to defend my life, even a rolling pin or GASP! a Springfield Armory (clone)! :uhoh:

What I'm saying is in matters of taste, to each his own. Cheers!
 
I dunno. I qualified a couple of times a year for about ten years with the issued 1911A1 and bled everytime. Loved the commander hammer/duckbill safty set up and own those now.

Have not had any problems with checkering or grip tape as recorded on my timer.

Perhaps it's a matter of taste and testing. :)
 
I do think the beveled mag well is a GOOD idea.... not an oversized one, just a light dremel-ing on the existing surfaces.

I might do that to my FEG hi-power one of these days, but I think I'll wait 'til the blueing has completely worn off the grip.

My biggest beef with every Colt I've had is the factory sights. The Custom pistol I have has a complete 1991 A1 upper that has decent easy to index sights. My Commaner's low profile sights are hard to pick up in low light and my 1911 has very skinny sights that look delicate compared to the 1991... still a little enamel sight paint makes all the difference in the world.

For a while I had the monogrip on all my "serious" pistols, all single action. Makes the grip of a bhp feel almost the same as the Colts, but again, the width of the grip was changed. Skinnier wrap arounds with the same grooves would be cool for a belt gun... I can understand the resistance to rubber grips on a CCW piece.

Why note skateboard tape on the front strap? It doesn't interfere with anything, and you can always remove it later, and it adds very little in increasing the width of the grip front to rear.

What about thos pachmeyer wood grips with the rubber fingergrooves?

Anyone else like the wide spur checkered hammers of old?
 
Wow! I am glad my Momma thought I was a piano player in a house of ill repute instead of a pistolsmith. Tuner always gets something good going.
 
...or the swoopy Buck Rogers types that make it impossible to uncock one handed.

Why on earth would you want to do that?

I don't believe I've ever uncocked either of my weapons, one or two handed.

There's no reason.

What am I missing?
 
Give any man a podium and a lecture is sure to follow...

Some who shoot alot have found the beavertail (quite unlike the Colt or King's ducktail) and front strap checkering to be no hindrance to obtaining a fast, consistent grip.


1) 'Tuner is the sort of man that people like you and I should listen to. Even if you don't agree; listen and at least think about what he says.

2) He didn't say it hinders obtaining a grip quickly and consistently, he said that it hinders changing your grip quickly.
 
'Tuner:


Thanks for the interesting and informative post.

Glad to see some more reasoning and rationale behind my personal love for a mil-spec Colt 1991A1. :)

All this time, I simply figured that if the 1911 in its basic configuration has been good enough for millions of men all around the world through two World Wars and numerous other battles, its good enough for me to defend my life with. :)
 
Hindrances

DrJones said:

He didn't say it hinders obtaining a grip quickly and consistently, he said that it hinders changing your grip quickly.
______________________

Yes! Finally! Somebody noticed that.

When the firing grip is obtained from the front of the grip frame
with the hand already in motion, it sometimes requires minor adjustments
"On the Fly"...as the gun moves from the holster to target alignment. The
checkered frontstrap doesn't allow me to do that easily or smoothly enough
to let me begin pressure on the trigger as the gun sweeps from initial presentation toward target and fire as soon as it's aligned.

That's right...I start the trigger pull as soon as the muzzle is clear of my foot. The safety comes off as soon as the gun clears leather...and the first
shot is fired at the same instant that the muzzle is on target.
 
What an interesting thread.

It seems to me to come down to two questions:

1) What works?

2) How do we know it works?

Without data, any discussion of this sort is really just speculation and conjecture. And a sufficient body of data is hard to come by. We clearly can't pick a set of modifications to our pistol, and then get into a gunfight and see how things work out, and then make changes and do the sa,e thing again and again.

How about using an isolated data point? Such as, "I have been in a shootout, and survived, therefore my choice of pistol and its modifications are just fine." Clearly ridiculous.

How about looking at military actions? Clearly lots of data points. But, soldiers don't have the ability to pick their pistols and modifyu as they choose. Same with police actions. Departments mandate what will be carried.

It is my position that competition (be it IPSC, IDPA, or your own homegrown "combat" competition) is the best way to determin what works and what doesn't. Clearly, competition isn't combat. But I am pretty sure that you can't get enough combat experience, while being able to change/modify your pistol, to be able to draw any meaningful conclusions.

While competition is not the same as combat, it shares some important characteristics. The essence of the required skill sets is the same. You need to be able to place multiple hits on multiple targets, quickly and accurately, from a variety of positions, using a sufficiently powerful pistol.

In competition, we have thousands of data points every week. The style of gun, and its modifications, that wins the competitions is pretty consistent. Competitors do what works and discard what doesn't. On AVERAGE, there is a type of pistol with certain modifications that wins. To say that those are Gamer guns and not suited for everydaty carry is nonsense (the exception being open class IPSC guns).

Everybody is going to do what they are going to do. I wouldn't expect many people on this thread to change the configuration of their 1911 based on this thread. But you should really ask yourself - "Do I really have the data that supports my choices?" If your answer to that question is along the lines of - "I've shot my gun, and I know what works for me," be careful. How much have you shot, in situations that really test your and your guns abilities? I have played the IPSC game for a long time, and the number of people who come out and shoot who think that they REALLY can shoot, and end up embarassing themselves, is big (this includes military, cops, etc.).

Plenty of statements in this thread of the perils of various types of modifications and accesories. Given that thousands of competitors consistently show these fears to be unfounded, it seems like some armchair quarterbacking going on here.

Lots of people seem to dismiss what is learned from competition. I would be interested in why that's so.




Scott
 
It is my position that competition (be it IPSC, IDPA, or your own homegrown "combat" competition) is the best way to determin what works and what doesn't. Clearly, competition isn't comba

How do you carry a full race gun with comps, red dots and a full load of Laura Croft accessories?

Enquiring minds want to know! :neener:
 
Competition

TaxPD said:

Lots of people seem to dismiss what is learned from competition. I would be interested in why that's so.

Howdy,

Good, valid points.
No one is suggestiing that we dismiss what we learn in competition.
Not only is competition a valuable learning tool, it provides a yardstick
for us to measure how well we do under time stress. The missing factor in the equation is that the worst stress that we'll endure in a match won't be in the same ballpark as what we get when the lead is moving both ways.

Unless we are one of those rare "Ice People, it's very easy to foul a draw due to a missed grip under those conditions. When a missed grip occurs, we aren't going to start over from scratch and try again...We'll bring the
gun out, regardless of the grip...and fire. The ability to make smooth corrections on the grip while it's moving increases the odds of making the first shot count...and the biggest majority of gunfights are decided by who hits first.

Neither does this suggest that those corrections can't be made with a textured surface on the frontstrap...but those adjustments absolutely can be executed a tick faster without them, and, about as often as not...a split
second can make the difference in who hits first.

And I would never be so presumptuous or irresponsible as to engage in Armchair Quarterbacking.

Good points! Keep'em comin'...
 
'Tuner and everyone who has posted:

Thank you so much!


This is such an informative thread!!!

I've learned tons!!!
 
Can I play, too?

Science has taken style and feel out of the equation for me in some respects. I have large, sweaty, palms, and meaty fingers. I need aggressive treatments of some sort on the grip area of my gun. There is no option, for me. My hands are sweaty enough that I usually swipe my palm on my right pant leg before I shake a friend's hand. To be 100% confident that I can grip a gun properly, and maintain control even in a struggle, I need checkering.

The meat and "web" between my thumb and forefinger has sustained discomfort while shooting guns that weren't well-blended, not to mention, "mil-spec". My thumb-over-safety hold seems to exacerbate these issues, and also dictate the types of thumb safeties that I use. No ambis for me, thanks! My PRO has one, and it bothers me like having burrs inside of tube socks.

I am right handed, but left eye dominant. I shoot with both eyes open in order to have better light, clarity, and depth perception. However, after long range sessions, I feel as though I have eyes that are crossed as severly as Jerry Lewis used to do! The tools that best help me combat this issue are sights with vertical markings as opposed to black, or horizontal. I like Novak bar-dots as well as Heinie Straight Eights.

So, you all now know what my "fren" Tuner has known for a couple of years; I am a quirky, neurotic, gun dealer that just can't leave well-enough alone!:p

Be well!
 
Jammer Six:

All of my "serious" 1911 type pistols are set up so that the grip safety can be depressed by pulling back the hammer until the hammer spur pushes on it.

Why??

Because a situation might arise where I needed to lower the hammer, and both hands weren't free to do the job. Likely? No. Possible? Yes. This, plus having the choice has no negative effects. John Browning designed it that way, and had a reason for doing so.

I find it truly sad that your pistol does not have a genuine "real-steel" USGI manual safety. The whole world is obviously going down the drain. You need to P.M. a mailing address to me so that I can correct this outrageous situation. :D
 
Tuner,

You said:

"The missing factor in the equation is that the worst stress that we'll endure in a match won't be in the same ballpark as what we get when the lead is moving both ways."

Agreed, 100%. But what competition does, is allow us to hone our skills and test our equipment in situations where we may experience SOME (albeit not the same as combat) stress.

It seems like many people will use a statement such as yours to dismiss competition - "Since it is not the same as combat, we won't do it. And we will dismiss anything learned from competition as gamesmanship that is not applicable to real life."

"When a missed grip occurs, we aren't going to start over from scratch and try again...We'll bring the gun out, regardless of the grip...and fire. The ability to make smooth corrections on the grip while it's moving increases the odds of making the first shot count..."

Competition shooters don't get to start over when they miss a grip, or have any other problems. You learn to adapt, and make the corrections that are necessary. And, I would suggest that an active competitior is significantly less likely to miss a grip, or to experience other problems. Lots of practice creates a higher skill level, which does away with many of those problems.
 
1911Tuner,

Yes! Finally! Somebody noticed that.

"Finally"?

Believe it or not, some of us noted that two pages ago. ;)

(...or many years ago, whichever. I'd rather shoot fast from a stable bad grip than bobble the pistol and get shot while trying to get a perfect one. BTW: You don't notice any personal contradiction between the "spot weld" statement and the "grip shift" thesis? :confused: )

Bear in mind, however, that I don't find aggressive frontstap texturing mandatory, just desirous. On my drawstroke, my fingers engage the frontstrap first, then the web of my thumb rocks forward to lock the gun in and initiate the actual draw.This is what makes a beavertail well nigh mandatory for me, else the web of my hand has a much harder time finding that index. BTW, one place frontstrap texturing really shines: when my strong-side hand is incapacitated and I need to reach around behind myself and extract the pistol from its holster with my weak hand, that frontstrap texturing is a godsend... :uhoh:
 
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