Why I don't have Ducktails, et al

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We also had a series 80 with no sights - front and rear missing. This was to simulate ....things got rough and you gotta shoot anyway.

Another series 80 had the rear sight ...the front sight was "just stuck on" ....I didn't know that when I picked it up off the table ... It was there, and then it wasn't. This was to simulate losing the front sight. I was the first shooter to find out. :p Hard part was containing myself while the others went to the line.

One older fellow had a cataract in one eye ( since fixed) but he had the Ashley sights on his 1911, made sense for him , he knocked it off , he kept shooting and hitting ....he surprised himself. He had bothe eyes fixed now...

A number of folks that had ambi's - took them off , one fellow was a lefty ...he is really fast with a index finger and getting on target.

So I see a lot of what I call "tweaking" , stocks, sights for bad eyes, and holsters getting fitted better. Most guns have a trigger pull b/t 3- 5 lbs. Funny how many want it at 4 or 5 after a bit.

When I use skateboard tape....I smooth the tape somewhat. This will sound dumb....for me and my hands the smoothed skateboard tape is like snow tires using snow in the treads to get traction. In colder weather I rarely wear gloves - especially on strong hand....and then fingerless at that. Without gloves in cold , wet, rain, snow or mud, I still get my grip....that wee bit of bite with whatever element allows me to keep it. I told you it was dumb. I had to smooth the tape some to accomplish this tho'.
 
Sights

Steve said:

We also had a series 80 with no sights - front and rear missing. This was to simulate ....things got rough and you gotta shoot anyway.
______________________

One of my beaters has a front sight only, and a short one at that. I
ground a rear sight down to nearly match the slide contour. You'd
be amazed at how much a rear sight can slow you down on the first shot
out of the leather.

A good aid to learning to shoot without sights is to paint a white stripe
on top of the slide from the port forward...about a quarter-inch wide
will do...and later on, bring it down to an eighth of an inch...then without
the stripe. Use black paint on stainless guns. Testor's model car paint is good, and comes right off with a little paint thinner.
 
the only thing i really disagree on is the rear sight issue. guns need both a front and rear sight.

Well... it would certainly drive me nuts to have the rear site on my .45 be 'missing'. Though I CAN see the point of what Tuner's saying. I mean, look at a shotgun. You don't really AIM, per se... you bring it up and point, keeping that front bead in mind... with no rear site.

I guess it's something like that. But for me, I'll keep my small, snagfree, unobtrusive rear sights on my guns. For now at least. :D

best,
StrikeEagle
 
I save the Testors for painting sights....

I use Tape to make the "VEE" as Tuner did with paint. I use White, Red or Black - depends on gun's slide. I like simple....I peel it off and use lighter fluid if need . Oh - heck no I don't cut it , I use a straight edge and felt tip to make the "VEE"...it works. :p

Get some eye patches and have folks cover dominate eye....

We toss tennis balls, nerf balls, at the shooter - not hard - being safe and all from the back and angled to sides...in front of shooter on ground to distract focus and all. I hated the Barney stuffed animal we "had"... we used Barney for this and hostage stuff...Barney cannot come out and play anymore....I learned he is allergic to bullets. Not my fault he ran out onto a hot range. :)

What does happen is we shoot other folks guns, under stress. We learn from each other, we may find a sharp place the owner does not have a problem with, we give / take tidbits -learned from each others guns.

This allows "try before you buy", be it guns or modifications. We do recommend muliples of carry guns - that redundency dealie. So we see folks finding what works for them a bit quicker , then once established esy to set the multples up the same way. Only time we see a change is if a persons eyes start to go ( or cataracts) or the arthritis gets bad and stock tweaking comes into play....
 
Once upon a time before the Col. explained why we had to use a “flash sight picture†my youthful ignorance got the best of me. Like almost everyone else at the time I had practiced point shooting both at waist and shoulder levels. Most of this was done with revolvers, but one day I got the bug to try it with my .45 pistol.

While shooting at waist level I sometimes got hit with brass, and decided revolvers weren’t so bad after all. I could have adjusted the extractor and ejector to obtain a better ejection pattern, but at the time I didn’t have the slightest idea about how to go about it. It will come as a shock to some, but the Ol’ Fuff wasn’t born bright.

Coming up to shoulder height I found I was slowing down, because by habit I would look for the sights. Of course I could have removed them, but I had no intention of doing so.

Instead I went and paid the outrageous sum of $12.00 and bought a brand new surplus USGI slide that was stripped – no sights of any kind. This was quickly mounted on my pistol and I had the “point and shoot†gun I wanted without making any non-reversible modifications.

I found that up to about 15 feet I could do acceptably well, and it was very fast – noticeably faster then when using the sights. As are result I firmly believe point shooting has its place, especially after watching both Bill Jordan and Rex Applegate demonstrate what they could do. Neither of these men were arm chair experts, and both pointed out that a handgun would most likely be employed at: (1) very close range – measured in feet not yards), (2) the winner would be decided quickly, often in time frames around or under one second, and (3) the confrontation might well be unexpected. On the other hand if one was going to an anticipated fight they had no business carrying nothing but a handgun.

I would suggest to those who are intrigued enough to experiment that my method of using a substitute slide will solve the question of not altering their present sights, and ultimately if they change their mind the second slide can be sold to recover their investment, or the sights of their choice can be mounted on it.
 
So it isn't "competition" per se, it's letting the competition rules dictate poor shooting habits and ingrain poor skills that's the problem.

Using some form of properly adjusted metric as an aid to judging personal progress is good then. (man that sounds high-falutin)

I've noticed over the years my "flash sight picture" has me looking over the top of the gun with the base of the front sight (the line where it meets the slide) centered side-to-side in the notch of the rear but even with the top of the rear sight. When I tip my head down, the alignment and picture are textbook on target. Not sure how it happened but it works. I wonder now if I unconsciously adjusted from the difference in height between the stock sites and the Novaks?
 
Here are some pics that Tuner requested a while back. This thumb safety is installed on the 5" LW GI carry gun I am building with the proto-type rear and the Wilson front. Eat you heart out Old Pal!

62566107.gif

62566120.gif

62566044.gif

62566035.gif

This one has a ramped 45 ACP barrel and is a Caspian Aluminum Lower End with an old draw filed South American slide from the days of yesteryear. Note the grip safety and slide stop.
 
Thank you, Mr. Fuff, for the bare slide idea. Sounds like an experiment begging for me to try it.

Carebear- I've found myself using the sight picture you describe. I just didn't always know it!
Let me explain. At times, I'll be practicing fast shooting, and sometimes notice (without trying) that I had that sight picture you described.
It's not the sight picture I'm trying to achieve, as I'm not neccassarily trying to get ANY sight picture. It's just what happpens.
I wonder if the way the light strikes the gun is why it's noticeable sometimes. I shoot in our woods, and since the light has to filter down through the trees, it can vary a lot.
I've heard that sight picture described as "shooting out of the notch", when it is what the shooter is trying for.

Dr. Rob- You mentoned that old Texas Ranger with the 1911 story. I may be "blending" two or three tales together here, but a similar one I remember reading was about "Lone Wolf" Gonzalez, I believe.
It was something like-
When a young rookie noticed his mode of carry, he asked the veteran: "Isn't that dangerous?"
To which he replied: "Of course it's dangerous! If it wasn't dangerous, I wouldn't be carrying the damned thing!"
 
Gi Thumb Safety, etc

garret said:

When I have a grip on the gun, the joint on my thumb (closest to the nail) is slightly ahead of the forward edge of the safety. I am activating the safety with the flat part of my thumb between the two joints.
______________________

Bein' large of hand and long of thumb, I have the same problem
if I hit the safety with my thumb straight...which I don't. I don't
shoot "Thumbs High" either. To get a good purchase on the safety pad,
hook your thumb a little to put the pad where you need it on your thumb.
That also gives you a little mechanical advantage when you snick it off-safe in a hurry. Takes a little gettin' used to, but it works.
____________________

That's the safety, Cap'n! Many thanks for the picture. I ain't eatin' my
heart out...I've got a few of those things layin' around, and if I run out I
can always make one outta the new paddle-style safety.:cool:
________________________

Now...Let's take a look at the arched mainspring housing. I kniw the flat ones are all the rage, and I like'em too...but study it a minute and figgr out what it's for...besides changin' the way the gun points.

Standin' by...

Tuner
 
Arched Mainspring housing...

The story told to me was...

Back in the day folks shot one handed , akin to Bulls - Eye Shooters. IN combat , shooting one handed , left a hand free to drag a buddy to safety, tote a radio... or whatever.
Arched was suppose to aid the one- handed shooting style , the alignment of gun bore to web in hand to wrist , helps with not canting the bore, the arch allowed one to better control elevation - and - the trigger was "squeezed" straight back , not "up or down" which could affect the elevation and impact on targets.

Then this fellow named Weaver showed up ata Big Shooting Match. This other Fellow named Col. Cooper < gasp> noticed that Weaver fellow was using BOTH and getting faster hits...the two hand hold was accepted, the grip of arched was not best for some anymore with 2 hand ....err Weaver method....flat worked .
 
Arched Housing

What Steve said...All pretty accurate...but think about what else it does.

It wedges the firing hand more tightly against the underside of the grip safety, and makes the grip more solid with a two-hand hold. Try shooting a long string with a standard safety and a flat housing...then try it with an arched housing. The web of your hand will get sore quicker with the arched housing.
 
Great thread! By sharing this vast amount of knowledge the learning curve can be shortened and we all benefit.

Hmmmm. "That stuff is for Sellin', Not drinkin'!" That is a very good quote to remember. Thanks Dave Sample.

"Lipstick on a pig." I like that too. I'm glad we have forums like this to separate the two.

The Kimber Ultra RCP II "employees a sighting trench to replace the conventional sights. Extremely fast to target, this allows the pistol to be carried in a pocket or waistband without binding or snagging." This is an interesting idea, and is virtually the identical to the Testers paint or tape V. Apparently Kimber likes the no sight concept enough to try to sell it.

I've never played gun games and never been in a two way exchange of lead (standard disclaimer) but as armchair quarterback I have a few observations to offer. When the situation suddenly turns very serious, the brain overloads, and the body may be working against you (vomit, tears, sweaty palms, ruined undergarments) unless it has been trained to act without conscious thought. As was illustrated by the policeman looking for the empty brass bucket, muscle memory developed through countless hours of practice will prove to be the deciding factor. While gun games certainly have their place, they can deeply ingrain habits that are the winning touch for the game, but may get one killed in a heartbeat. The equipment used in these games has become so specialized that the muscle memory developed in its use may also prove deadly in a self defense situation. As many others have said, games are a wonderful proving ground for some things and any time sent sending lead downrange is good, but in the end their main result is to teach one to play games better.

I have been fortunate to send a few downrange with Tuner. His method is to start with his weapon in his standard carry configuration and make the presentation and firing of the weapon one fluid motion, over and over again. He is very fast and very accurate, the result of building muscle memory over many many practice sessions. Many others practice this movement, but seeing it firsthand was enlightening for me. I've always practiced by bringing the weapon up slowly from a hand hold and taking careful aim, concentrating on marksmanship. In the future more time will be spent with a self defense, presentation and firing approach.

sm is probably closest to the best preparation IMHO. The concept of practicing adaptation to unusual situations bears some serious consideration, as there are few "real-world average situations." Those who adapt quickest/best stand the best chance for survival.

Tuner and others have indicated a preferred combination of equipment. What Tuner has chosen certainly works well for him. I start far from his ideal but as I gain practical experience, I may move closer to or further from it. Each individual's choice of equipment is a major confidence builder for them. Personally, I cannot be as confident with a smooth trigger face as I can with one that grabs a little. Your tractor may crank differently. Equipment is a personal choice issue with no one right or wrong answer.

Range time will make the biggest difference in a critical situation. Threads like this will help each of us to make the best of our range time by working on moves that are most practical. When we notice problems with our equipment or moves, we can look here for solutions. Again, thanks for the differing viewpoints and good thread.
 
Fluid

19112XS said:

and make the presentation and firing of the weapon one fluid motion, over and over again...very fast and very accurate...
_________________________

Howdy Jim! About ready for another range trip? The weather is gettin' cooler and the time will soon be ripe to burn up a couple thousand rounds.
You've got a standin' invitation.

The key to getting the gun clear of the leather is that "Fluid Motion". The speed of the first shot is in timing the shot to the exact instant that the gun is on target. Combining the two is the trick...and ya pay your dues with sore sholulder and arm muscles.:cool:
 
sm is probably closest to the best preparation IMHO
Click to expand...
Thank you for the kind words.

I will be the First to admit - MY methods are NOT the best.

All I can share are those things which I have been taught, experienced , or exposed to - the good , the bad, the ugly , and just damn lucky.

My experiences and elephants pale in comparison to so many folks on this Forum,other forums, those that have / are in harm's way. I am no big deal , I know this, and will be the first to admit I have too much to learn in only so much time on this earth.

We have folks that have forgotten more than I will ever know. We have ladies even such as Tamara, and pax for instance that are more knowledgeble than myself. Yep - I'm a guy , and secure enough to admit women know better than I , many can outshoot me.

I have never been to an offical training school. Time and money - my excuses. I was fortunate to have some folks teach me in certain areas of defensive measures - #1 was to not get in a situation , #2 turn around and haul butt if can if found in one. Then if #3 were to occur "in fear of life" ...that is what the lessons were for.

Many of my mentors are gone, I have buried too many. Others have moved away. There are a few ...my current scheduling and life situation makes it difficult to - well train is not the right word, practice don't seem right either.

Recently some weird afflictions have hit. I noticed after shooting yesterday I have problem with my eyes. Then my left forearm was acting up. Maybe old injuries is acting up. The eyes...that bugs me - I used to have vision like Chuck Yeager. Unfortunatly I have taken Anatomy /Phyisiology ...my mind wanders...as to what is going on. I had hell using a 1911 and pump shotgun yesterday, we won't even talk about the iron sighted rimfire rifle...not a good day.

Though I have trigger time with handguns, for too many years I shot a Win Super X 1 . I did fine with it yesterday, even though it was not my gun, it felt like a old friend. I can run it , I can still " if I can see it - fell it" with a SX1. I can still run slugs out to 35 yds, fast and accurate and hit swinging paint cans...for instance.

So though the kind words are appreciated, here is some advice. If I post something then Tuner, Dave Sample, Tamara,pax, Old Fuff, Denny Hansen Dave McC , kudu, Trapper, Smoke....lets just say anyone else post's - disregard my post and listen to others.

Smoke- when you gonna make me a IWB for a shotgun ? :)
 
Stimulating thread. Thanks for posting everyone. Makes me glad I started hanging out here a bit. I have one thing to add:

I had the GI grip and thumb safeties smoothed out on my Colt GM. It's now just about as comfortable as a 1911 w/ BT. The web of my hand gets sore at about round number 250. Of course, my back and brain get sore then too...
 
Smooth

Maxer said:

I had the GI grip and thumb safeties smoothed out on my Colt GM.
____________________


:cool:

More'n one way to skin a duck:D I've also got the serrations ground smooth on the rearward curve of my spur hammers. It's the little, subtle things that can make a difference.

Welcome to THR, Max...Pull up a chair and hang out.

Jim! I'm gonna bone up on that fallin' plate machine for our next shoot.
I had forgotten how much gun that thing was.:cool:

Steve...your scenarios sound like they're geared toward expecting the unexpected...which is usually how it goes down on the street. Kudos to
you and your friends for being so creative.

Cheers all!
 
It wedges the firing hand more tightly against the underside of the grip safety, and makes the grip more solid with a two-hand hold. Try shooting a long string with a standard safety and a flat housing...then try it with an arched housing. The web of your hand will get sore quicker with the arched housing.
Click to expand...

:confused:

So, 'Tuner, which housing are you advocating?

I can read this both ways, a more solid grip would be in favor of the arched housing, but pain after a long string would be in favor of the flat housing.

:(

Enquiring Minds Want To Know! :cool:
 
Devil's Advocate

Jammer asked:

So, 'Tuner, which housing are you advocating?

Neither one...and both. All I did was to point out a physical function of the arched housing and left it to the readers of the thread to experiment a
little rather than accept that because the "tactical" pistols have the flat one, that it must be superior to the arched housing. Sneaky, eh...wot?

All my pistols have a flat housing. The only practical difference for
ME...is that the arched housing makes my hand sore in the web and the
root of my thumb earlier... but I don't have meaty hands. You may find that an arched housing to be better suited to YOUR hand...enough so that the trade-off in shorter range sessions is worth it.____________________________

Andrew said:

Shotguns also have stocks, which aligns your head in the same place each time. pistols don't.

A drawback that can be overcome with practice. I haven't used my rear sights for fast, point-shoulder shooting in years. Snap-shooting with a rifle, using only the front sight is also doable within 50-75 yards. All ya gotta do is play with it a little.;)

I like bolt-action rifles...My choice is the Ruger 77 RSI International carbine
(.308)with NECG aperture rear sight and a lightly modified OEM front. M-94
Winchester 30-30 carbines are also up there with my favorites. Not at all
TC...(Tactically Correct)...in this age of black rifles and 30 round magazines,
but both are frighteningly effective if handled well.

Luck!

Tuner the Dinosaur
 
The flickering you see is the dim bulb in my head finally coming on. :D

Thanks Tuner, I get it now. Straight and High is how I have been doing it.

In trying to relate what you were saying to Dave Sample's most recent pictures, I got 1 of each setup out of the safe to try it. It would take some getting used to , but I could do it.

After spending a few minutes trying each type of safety, I came to another realization. My extended safety starts where the GI button would be, and doesn't run the full length of the safety pad, so the GI is closer to what my hand is used to than a standard type. The extended button such as Dave Sample displayed has some possibilities to it.

As a side note, I now know what has been causing the sore thumb problem on my Commander. I originally thoughy it might be sharp edges on the frame, and there are some, but they aren't the source of the problem. It is the standard safety that is hitting the base of my thumb and making it sore. I shoot high thumbs with my thumb riding the safety. The rear portion of the extended version is smooth with the edges beveled. The standard version has a sharp, serrated ledge as shown in the picture Brian posted earlier.

Tuner, my theory is the extra metal at the rear of that safety is channeling the recoil into my thumb first before being absorbed into the web of my hand. Does this sound like I am on the right track?
 
Which shape of Mainspring Housing should you use?

Why, flat, of course, with standard thickness grip panels and a long trigger.

You should also wear size 8 long jeans from The Gap and size 10 shoes. Everybody knows that...

Be glad that there are some folks out there who can divine your size without even clapping eyes on you. ;)




It just kills me that there are folks that own the most personalize-able pistol on God's green Earth, yet who just can't wait to spend money to make it fit someone else's hand... :p
 
Tamara -

Makes / brings up a great point : "fitting someone's else's hand" . I've mentioned a customer before that my gun buddy has. He is always changing guns for one, "IF" he happens to stay with a gun , he is always changing stuff to whatever the "other fella " used at a match or training facility. He is real good about buying stuff for a gun out of a wish book - before he gets the gun it is for.

He thought my gun buddy was joking while "one more time" he gonna try the 1911 style. My buddy said "Shoot a Glock" .

I deal / dealt with this guy on shotguns, finally ...I said "Get a Glock". He is trying out a Nova....he was....he broke the stock, and having to use another...I'm hoping this guy stays with a Nova - my gun buddy is hoping he goes with a Glock or XD.

Not much one can do to "fit someone else". This not being able to tweak has a place , it can and is a good thing. :D
 
Theories 'R' Us

garret said:

Tuner, my theory is the extra metal at the rear of that safety is channeling the recoil into my thumb first before being absorbed into the web of my hand. Does this sound like I am on the right track?

Very well could be true. I don't shoot thumbs high, so the shape of the thumb safety makes no difference in that area. The abreviated GI pad
does offer me a more positive purchase with my thumb as long as I hook
it downward slightly. My habit has always been to find the safety with
my thumb straight, and wipe it off with a dual motion...Bending it at the first joint AND moving the whole thumb down, continuing until I've got it
low on the grip, in line with the trigger. The thumb of the support hand
captures it as the support hand wraps around the grip. This will require that the safety comes off before the support hand comes into play, which
is something you may not be comfortable with.
________________________

Tamara has made a very good point in her charactistic manner. :cool: The
pistol offers a lot of opportunity to tailor it to fit the individual hand.
Arched, flat, and the new "Wdege" housing...which just about splits the difference. Short, long, and extra-long triggers...There's even a trigger with a square face that allows you to tailor it to suit you exactly. Grips that
are thick or thin...Many combinations. It only takes money and time to find what's right for you...and the rejected parts can then be sold to recoup some of your costs. Neat platform.
 
Please do not take this as a Flamer Thrower as all of you know I am very fond of De Tuner and all of you who post and lurk here. I have been wanting to ask this question for a long time. There has been alot of conversation here about this and that but I would like to know how many of you have held a very high end Custom Gun in your hot little hands and then have put 1000 rounds through it? How do you know how my guns feel when you have never held one? How can you tell what my checkering feels like? My hand cut checkering does not hurt your hand. My 30 LPI wrap around checkering on the trigger guard helps you grip the gun whichever way you grab it. My hammer is sticky as is the bottom of my slide stop because if you off load one of these things everynight for years, there are places where you want to avoid a slip. I like a S&A mainspring housing/mag funnel on some guns for speedy re-loads. All of you know there is a wide gap between what I carry and what I built for others. Ask yourselves a question for me. If there was absolutely no cost to you involved, what custom features would you like, but don't have. I know Jeff Cooper and I know what kind of 1911 he likes. I am closely connected to Gunsite and I know what many of the instructors out there think of Pistolsmiths. They like serrated front straps, short triggers, large fixed sights, accuracy with a good name barrel and bushing, Government models for the most part, although Colonel Bob Young has a very nice Commander he carries sometimes. I know that you understand that we do things our clients want and many times, over our objections, or perhaps you weren't aware of that. I never liked to spend other peoples money on useless improvements, but I did not have the final say, they did. I always like large fixed sights, for example, but my clients wanted Bo-Mar rears, melted into the slide. So here we are. I am awaiting your input. All of my guns including the Carry Commander have flat mainspring housings and long triggers. That is what I like.
 
I've never had a name gun in my mits but I've shot some customized 1911s over the years. My impression is that top notch pistolsmiths are a rare breed. Any local 'smith can add or replace parts, try to checker a frontstrap or fit a ducktail safety. But it takes a ton of genuine talent to pull off a beautifull firearm like this:

http://gregfeld.com/pics/YostCCLeft1.jpg
 
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