Why I don't have Ducktails, et al

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Drjones,

All this time, I simply figured that if the 1911 in its basic configuration has been good enough for millions of men all around the world through two World Wars and numerous other battles, its good enough for me to defend my life with. :)
Click to expand...

After you've owned one, feel free to let us know which features you like. :)
 
Does anyone have an opinion one way or the other on undercutting the trigger guard a bit? I had this done on my 1911 and it seems to be beneficial. In combination with a beavertail, it brings my grip up a tad, which strikes me as a good thing for recoil control.

Have any of you more experienced* pistoleros tinkered with the idea? Here's a photo of a 1911 with this done: http://www.gunsmokeguns.com/built 1911 examples/blueright384.jpg


* My qualifications for picking defensive pistol characteristics: <can you hear the crickets?>
 
Don't Knock the Rock

Tamara said:

On my drawstroke, my fingers engage the frontstrap first, then the web of my thumb rocks forward...
___________________

Ahhhh...I'd like to see that particular stroke executed in slow-motion
sometime...I'm as interested in varied techniques as I am in varied equipment. I also know that the female body structure requires a
little adaptation and ingenuity to execute a smooth, fast draw.
Maybe if we all arrange a group shoot, I can have a close look at it.


I scoop the gun with my fingers as my hand comes up, and the web of my hand doesn't make contact with the back of the grip until it's about
halfway out, but rather is stopped by the heel of my hand. Corrections on the grip are made as the muzzle clears and begins to angle forward.
It's a very fast system, though tough to master, and it requires a lot of
practice to retain.

One question, Tam...Do you find that a behind the hip rig with a strong
forward rake works better than a more straight-dropped rig worn farther forward?

Bear with me...There are reasons for these questions.
___________________________


Ian...Believe it or not, the small undercut on the bottom of the trigger is
one of the deviations from original that I like. The base of my middle finger
seems to find it and settle into the curve in a natural way, and it helps get the gun stable as I flip the gun out of the leather.

Standin' by...
 
Ian, IMHO, it's what works best for you - when verified. :)

The best money I ever spent was on a timer. "Beeps, bangs and holes" tell the story of "what works" better than anything else.

I'm still allergic to bleeding, so it's beavertails/ducktails for me. :D
 
TaxPhd;
It is my position that competition (be it IPSC, IDPA, or your own homegrown "combat" competition) is the best way to determine what works and what doesn't. Clearly, competition isn't combat.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You made some very good points about modifications. The first and foremost is about the major competitors. Leatham, Jarret, Enos, and the like............all of those guys are looking for everything and anything they can to give them the edge over the next guy..........and win. Ever see an extended slide stop on a race gun? If they were that good, if they would give the person the edge.......everyone would be using them.
Obviuosly the 1911 is the best combat gun out there, or again you'd see them using something else for the edge. Yes, I'm aware that some are using other guns, but the majority are still running 1911's.

We can't carry a race gun out on the street, but the basic mods and reliability can be done and carried on the street.

So let's look at the basics of a race gun verses the old 'Colonel' and his view on a good combat 1911.
Both ideas for a combat gun are, good sights, good trigger, and reliability. Both race guns and street guns can have that.............the rest is personal pref. and nothing more.

I don't think it's a bad thing to look at what the pro competitors are using..........what is giving them the edge............what is being used across the board. You'll see alot of the same things on street guns.

One thing you won't find on a race gun are cheap or inferior made parts. So why should anyone stand for anything less?! Especially for a gun that will be made to be called upon to save your or anothers life.
OHHH sorry.........wrong thread.........this last statement belongs in your 'rant' thread. Need more coffee...........pass the turbo Tuner.......and
talk me down.............
 
Wichaka

I agree that top competitors don’t scrimp on quality components, but at the same time I would point out that the game courses are usually a far different environment then some mean street. The courses of fire and rules seldom equate to what one is likely to see in an actual gunfight, and I haven’t seen many law enforcement officers (or serious others) carrying raceguns. The professionals I know on the border that still carry 1911 style guns (and they’re number is declining) are notable for having weapons that sport few if any game-gun modifications. In this country a geegawed gun is seen as the mark of an inexperience amateur. This is not to say that folks don’t personalize their guns, but rather that they are very careful about how they go about it.
 
Fuff is of course referring to disabling the grip safety with a rawhide strap, and a few brass beads on smooth walnut to get a better grip.

:D

On a note about that practice... I recall a Texas Ranger story (from a gunrag) about a ranger who carried his 1911, with a rawhide wrap, on half cock and mexican-carried under his considerable belly. I forget the guy's name but he was one of those old-school hardnose guys that we all tell tall tales about these days. Anyone else remember the guy's name?

The point is, what worked then we might consider unsafe, un tacti-cool but it worked.

I handle a Springfield "operator" model 1911 with rails etc... didn't even FEEL like a 1911 in my hand. Fitting your tool to your hand is important.

The 1911 is the hotrod of handguns.. every part that can be replaced has been replaced, jeweled, chekered, plated or otherwise "improved."

"What works for you."is what's most important right?

Y'all notice the Glock crowd doesn't HAVE these discussions? Phillistines to the core.

:D
 
The more I learn the less I know.

I am slowly migrating over to Tuner's way of thinking on my own. I have a bone stock Colt Commander, and a Kimber Custom with all the usual goodies on it. Both of them perform their task equally well if I do my part.

The general school of thought has always been that all those little goodies made it easier to shoot, or made the gun work better. I'm not so sure that is the case.

The Kimber has the FLGR. It is no more reliable than the standard setup in my Colt. But it sure is a bear to field strip the gun. I have come to prefer the standard Colt setup.

The Kimber has the big beavertail on it. I always thought the purpose of these was to make your hand hurt less when shooting it. But if you you have to have one of these to make the gun comfortable to shoot, then how come a Sig P220 with no ducktail and a bobbed hammer feels just fine. Maybe as Col. Cooper and others have suggested that you just need the sharp edges dressed down.

Perhaps some light reprofiling of the area under the tang and some reshaping of the grip safety would have the desired effect.

Ext. Thumb Safeties - for me at least there is some value to this. The factory safety on the Colt falls about midway between the first and second joint on my thumb. I can hit it, but it is more difficult.

The other stuff I could go either way on. I'm still working through what is right for me.

Dave Sample, I am assuming you knocked the sharp edges off your carry Commander. From what you posted, and the looks of it, it's just about perfect for a carry gun.
 
Mods

garret said:

Perhaps some light reprofiling of the area under the tang and some reshaping of the grip safety would have the desired effect.

Bingo!
_______________
And:

The factory safety on the Colt falls about midway between the first and second joint on my thumb. I can hit it, but it is more difficult.

Want a shock? Take a standard Colt thumb safety and grind it to match the original shape of a USGI pad. Really...Try it.
 
The factory safety on the Colt falls about midway between the first and second joint on my thumb. I can hit it, but it is more difficult.

Want a shock? Take a standard Colt thumb safety and grind it to match the original shape of a USGI pad. Really...Try it.
Click to expand...

OK, you lost me on this one. Partly because I am not up on the differences between the USGI and the regular Colt pad.

My problem seems to be length fore and aft, not depth from the side of the frame.

Do you have a picture where you can illustrate what you mean?
 
Hear ya loud and clear 'Fuff.
The professionals I know on the border that still carry 1911 style guns (and they’re number is declining) are notable for having weapons that sport few if any game-gun modifications. In this country a geegawed gun is seen as the mark of an inexperience amateur. This is not to say that folks don’t personalize their guns, but rather that they are very careful about how they go about it.
__________________________________________________________

How true, How true. I like plain and not flashy.

My point about the race gun stuff, was to show that even those folks don't put anything on their guns that won't give them an advantage. And as I've said alot of that stuff won't cross over to the street. Mag. wells, extended mag. release buttons, extended slide stops, less than 5lb triggers, adjustable & over sized sights, cocking serrations-checkering-engraving..........etc., etc., etc., have no place on a duty gun.
I know I'll get flamed for some of the things on the list, but I've seen alot of those things either fail or cause problems on the range. If they're causing problems in a non-violent setting (which is where you want them to fail), it would be devastating in a street shooting situation. So I recommend to all L.E. people that I build 1911's for, to stay away from that stuff and don't ask me to install it.............because I won't!

Being in L.E. presently myself, having been in 3 scrapes and have done some shooting game schtuff...........it is different. But as Tuner pointed out, unless we can have something where lead is going both ways, the shooting games are about the only thing that will raise the blood pressure and awarness of your gear. Nothing much worse than standing in front of a bunch of people all by yourself while they watch you fumble a mag change, fall down...............or worse.

I recently went to a 3-Gun Match for a local Deputy who has lukemia. It was a fund raiser for him and happen to coincide with a USPSA match, which I was not aware of until I arrived. I thought it was just going to be a L.E. type shoot. Where we do the tactical combat stuff, street scenarios etc. There were 4 of us from my dept. who attended and were pretty amazed at what we saw.
Of cousre we got smoked because we were all moving and shooting around cover, while the regulars are running around like their tails are on fire. I saw some pretty fast drawing & shooting, but also alot of pretty fast misses too. Along with a few guns falling out of those game type holsters, and those folks were sent home on the spot. Also saw folks putting shower caps over their guns between stages. Taking apart their mags., etc.
If that is what USPSA is all about, then I agree there is not much tactical value at all to it. The only thing that can be gained, is what I stated above............being timed and in front of alot of other people does take you out of your comfort zone. Which gets your adreniline going, and unless you know you're gear very well.............it will cause some problems. And that's about all we have at this point to show what may & may not work out on the street. The 4 of us are going to continue to go to the local USPSA shoots, they come around once a month here...........but we will continue to use our duty gear and make notes on what and what doesn't work. That's the way it should be done, use what you normally use on the street.
When I got the final results for the day, I realized we had not done that bad after all. Too many of the other people had too many fast misses! Our times sucked, but the actual 'hits' scores were high.

The same professionals I see around here too that have mods on their guns, are the ones who put 3,000+ rounds a year thru them. Their guns are there to use..............they're not wall hangers, or gather dust in the holster.
 
GI Thumb Safety

garret said:

My problem seems to be length fore and aft, not depth from the side of the frame.

Which is not uncommon, and is precisely what the origial style thumb safety pad addresses. I can't post a picture, but maybe somebody can.
If you've seen any of the old Norincos...they had the "right" thumb safety.

Anybody got a picture for the man?
 
How about a Sistema, It has the small thumb safety
sistemabox.jpg



And a one piece all steel trigger.
 
My Carry Commander does not have any sharp edges on it. There is no reason to have sharps on any 1911. At the start of this thread," the master of grits and gravy down home country gunsmithin'", told us why he likes stock 1911's. I carried a modified Systima 11.25mm as a duty weapon. It had full house checkering done by myself on a weekend after I cleaned it up. Not my best work, but quick and dirty. It had more numbers than a lawyer could count! They were all over it. I paid a princley sum of $219.95 landed for it and then revised it according to the way I wanted it to be. It was fitted for nite lites, tuned up, sent to Metaloy for hardchrome, fitted with some nice black grips, and served me well during my time on the Job there. It was all original exccept the finish and the sights. This is my idea of a duty weapon that would maybe cover me until I could get to my trusty 12 gauge and win the fight with that. I consider the 1911 pistol part of the "Badge of Authority" and a very silly choice for a gunfight. Hey..........."I didn't say I didn't know how to use one................I said I didn't have much use for them........................" A pistol is for "violent unexpected criminal attack" and that is all. I have no illusions about it as a way to win a gunfight in the old west out here. I have no problem with what Tuner likes in a 1911 at all because I share the same thoughts as he does. Use what works for you and never mind the imaginary Bovine Scatology. There is no way to train or prepare for a gunfight. The best you can do is learn how to shoot what you have to use. When the poop hits that little windmill, your training will make you or break you. I wish you all the best luck possible.
 
Tuner,

Believe it or not, the small undercut on the bottom of the trigger is
one of the deviations from original that I like.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear that from someone with experience. :) And here's another question for you - do you think the texture of the trigger face makes a difference? My trigger had vertical serrations in it, until I took it to a polishing wheel and made it totally smooth with slightly rounded edges. The fellow who siggested the change thought (and I agreed) that one doesn't want friction between the finger and trigger.

For kicks, here's a description and photo of my 1911:

attachment.php


It was originally an Argentine Sistema, and when I got it, the previous owner had replaced the hammer, sear, disconector, recoild spring, grip safety, mainspring housing, and trigger with (IIRC) Wilson Combat parts (I have all the original parts, though).

I installed an ambi safety, since I'm left handed. I shot it for a while with the replacement flat mainspring housing, but decided to put the original (arched, with lanyard loop) housing on. In addition to fitting my hand better, it has dulled stippling on it, and makes for a more secure hold than the flat one.

The beavertail is one with extended lump. I've never found this to be a problem (in fact, I can't even feel it there), and I've never failed to disengage the grip safety, so I've left it alone.

I had a smith do a trigger job on it, which reduced the pull from ~5.5 pounds to a crisp 3.5. I shoot .22 bullseye at school, and have gotten used (read: spoiled by) to light triggers.

As I mentioned, I have the trigger guard undercut. As the same time, I had the shop pull off the original (pre-A1) sights and replace them with a tritium Trijicon front post and Novak rear sight. I skipped tritium on the rear them because I couldn't afford it, but since then I've done a bit of night shooting and found the front-only illumination to be ok. I'll have to do a lot more before I make a final decision on whether or not to mess with the rear again. In any case, during the day these sights are both more precise and faster than the dimple-like (and dinged up) originals.

When I got it, the pistol wouldn't drop empty mags on its own, and some magazines were really tight. So I filed out the inside of the mag well until it drops any mag right out, even at cants up to 45 degrees or so. At the same time, I gave the bottom of the well a small bevel.

I was having some trouble keeping a steady hold on the gun with sweaty hands (haven't tried shooting with deliberately-greased or wet hands; I'll have to add that to a practice regimen), so I put a piece of skateboard grip tape on the front strap. It's grippy enough to help, but not so much as to be uncomfortable during extended shooting sessions. Hadn't thought about needing to adjust grip position, as I've always used the jam-down-and-yank-out style of draw. I'll be trying out the method you described, though.

I left on the original hard rubber grip panels. They work great, and I see no reason to change. I also haven't messed with the slide-to-frame fit (it rattles a bit), barrel, or bushing. I feed it mostly semi-wadcutters (the cheapest to reload), and it digests them just fine. I tried a piece of empty brass, and (to my delight) it fed that too.

I've used the gun in a couple IDPA matches, half an IPSC match (it got rained out partway through), and a pair of one-day pistol classes. It's given me no problems, other than to tell me that I need to practice more. :)
 
OK! Tuner owes me a new pair of blue jeans! 38 x 34 Indigo, thank you.

You had to start talking about using the sight to rack the slide. You mentioned the belt. Well, the first thing that was handy was my .38 Super. The slide is a pre series 70 Colt, complete with those dinky sights. Most of the time the sight slipped off of my belt, but grabbed onto the denim. 10 tries, 10 successful racks! I thought this must be due to the 14 lbs spring in my .38 Super, so I reached for my Delta Elite.

I had the 357 SIG barrel, and an 18 lb spring installed, plus a 25 lb mainspring, and an EGW square bottom firing pin stop.

Even then, it was almost 100%! One time, the cartridge jumped in front of the extractor, and the slide failed to close. This is a very severe test of the concept, however.

However, I noticed wear marks on my old blue jeans. I think I will move this maneuver to emergency practices.

Didn't have the heart to try it with my Gold Cup!:D
 
re:

Ian asked:

do you think the texture of the trigger face makes a difference?

Yessir, it does...I want a smooth trigger face with the edges blended smoothly into the sides. I like a smooth, narrow trigger on a revolver...preferably a K-frame Smith. L-frames are okay too...but there's just somethin' about those Ks...:cool:
______________________

Dave and I are about to reach a modus vivendi here. A pistol is what you
use to fight your way to a rifle or shotgun if one is nearby. If the pistol is all you have, you'd better be damn good with it, or fleet of foot.
_____________________

Grendelbane...:D That's another reason that I like to cut my recoil springs back about 2 pounds under standard. Gotta set'em up to run with a light spring though...Take the spring plug out...Lock a full mag in the well...
pull the slide all the way back...Push on the back of the rear sight with your
pinky. If the gun won't feed and go to battery, keep tweakin'.:p
 
"I would point out that the game courses are usually a far different environment then some mean street. The courses of fire and rules seldom equate to what one is likely to see in an actual gunfight. . .."

Very true. But since we aren't going to go out and get into gunfights to practice, competition is about the best preparation we've got.

"The professionals I know on the border that still carry 1911 style guns (and they’re number is declining) are notable for having weapons that sport few if any game-gun modifications."

We need to be careful about looking at the police or military for the way a gun should be, given that there choices are usually very constrained by the dept./agency that they work for. The gun is likely to have been decided by committee, rather than based on what works.

"If that is what USPSA is all about, then I agree there is not much tactical value at all to it."

Don't shoot USPSA or IDPA for tactical value. They aren't tactical training. Shoot those games to LEARN TO SHOOT.

Remember, whether it is competition or on the street, you want to be able to place multiple hits on multiple targets, quickly and accurately from a variety of positions, using a sufficiently powerful weapon. Shooting the competitions teaches you to do that.

"The same professionals I see around here too that have mods on their guns, are the ones who put 3,000+ rounds a year thru them."

That is about a quarter of the rounds that a moderately active IPSC competitior will shoot in a year. Lots of trigger time, in competition, will usually result in a highly skilled shooter.

I have to disagree with the following:

"This is my idea of a duty weapon that would maybe cover me until I could get to my trusty 12 gauge and win the fight with that."

I believe that most violent encounters that a non-military/LEO will be involved in are up close and personel, and be over well before anyone has time to retreat and retreive greater firepower. In the words of N. B. Forrest, be "The firstest with the mostest!"

Dave, you also said:

"There is no way to train or prepare for a gunfight."

And

"When the poop hits that little windmill, your training will make you or break you."

Can you help reconcile the seeming inconsistency?


One of the questions that I asked in my original post on this thread was how do we know what works? Take your gun, set up as you think it should be, and enter some competitions. If you haven't done this before, you will likely get spanked. Then you can either say that they are all a bunch of dirty gamers, not like true martial artists, or you can learn to shoot, and set your gun up in a way that will aloow to shoot to the best of your ability.

(This last paragrahp is not directed at anyone in particular - rather it is something we all should do.)



Scott
 
Thanks for the pics Brian.

OK, that's what I was thinking Tuner meant. Now I am really confused.

The Commander I have has a thumb safety with a shelf on it like the series 70 in the center picture. When I have a grip on the gun, the joint on my thumb (closest to the nail) is slightly ahead of the forward edge of the safety. I am activating the safety with the flat part of my thumb between the two joints.

How does going to the much smaller pad of the other pair of guns help things? It seems to me I would be going from bad to worse. Hitting the safety with the same part of my thumb, but with much less contact area.
 
I got short thumbs (and fingers) so the stock safety on my commander hits me right on the joint. never thought about it being too short. that might explain why extended safetys feel weird
 
I'm not an LEO, don't regularly shoot at people, did my military from 54 to 58
so I avoided many unpleasant situations, but I have tried to study the use
of firearms.

I lived in California when the Newhall CHP incident took place and did get to read
some of the After Action Reports on it. It has stuck with me and it has permanently
skewed my views on competition and training. I don't know how much you
remember about that shooting where four CHP guys were killed but at least
two were killed while stuffing their empties in their pockets.

The bottom line of that incident and a few others, very few reports include that
kind of info, leads me to the conclusion that I will fight, if I ever have to, mostly
like I've trained.

My son competes some in the gun games and I have attended a few. I have seen
nothing of tactical value in any of the events. The equipment, the presentation,
the use of cover, or the scoring, it's all just an unreal game.. To me, at it's best it provides
some adrenaline, at worst it reenforces a lot of bad habits.

After Newhall, one of my LEO neighbors got out of the shooting games for that
reason, but all of that is just my thoughts on the matter. Your mileage will vary.

allan
 
Point/Counterpoint

C96 and carebear...Welcome to THR and the discussion.

C96 just banged on a subject that is not often considered, but one that I've
harped on for years. The tendency to go into auto-pilot. Few people are
aware of it...but I've seen it happen.

There was a story of a cop....don't remember where, but it might've been
Illinois...who, according to witnesses, after shooting his revolver dry,
dumped the empties in his right hand...made a quarter-turn to his right...
and was shot dead 10 seconds later while he stood there looking for the plastic range bucket that he always dropped his brass into.

It was something that he had done hundreds of times in exactly the same way. The sequence was engraved into his range time...and when the bucket wasn't there, it interrupted that sequence...and he was unable to
continue until he finished it.

How many IDPA or IPSC stages use an auditory signal to begin? How
many are begun with the hands up in the "Surrender Position"? How
many of us, when under real-world threat, will put our hands up and
wait for that auditory signal before we can draw and fire? If anybody
thinks for one second that it can't happen...don't kid yourself.

Be aware of ANY sequence of moves that you habitually make during your
practice or training. Your training can save your life...but it can also get you dead.

Carry on! This one is movin' in a good direction.

Tuner
 
C96 , carebrear welcome to THR.

Tuner , C96 ....great posts. I competed for years in Skeet. I have nothing against organzied events. I contend the more one uses a firearm - the better the firearm becomes an extension of shooter. I still contend the petite lady with a 1100 20 shooting skeet is going to be better able to defend herself using that 1100 as a HD gun, than the person that never shots the shotgun bought for HD.

That said...C96 and Tuner, both hit on something very important. Something I reminded / remind students. "You will fall back on lowest level of training if stuff gets serious". When the students get to a cetain level of skilll...I push for defensive training..

Personally - I gave up competing for a couple of reasons, one was time restraints and I wanted to focus on some other life stuff. A more MAJOR reason is ... My focus on firearms today is more defensive, than even hunting . I get together with like minded folks, we teach each other and train accordingly.

Now, to get in shape for a skeet tourney I did at least 100 mount and dry fires a day - when aibig tourney was coming up....as many as 500 in a day...I had outlined and literally went through the stations and swung the gun exaclty as if on the field.
MY pracice rds, I did not call for the birds, nor did I know which house or if a pair....I wanted spontanous and surprise.

I incorporate this same deal with handguns. I practice drawing from concealed, I dryfire.

We do that in our training. For instance - I stole a tip from pax and a match she attended. A member will "pretend ' to have car trouble before they reach the private range, we may use a wife or daughter ....if the occupants are not carrying CCW - points are deducted.

We don't use beeps or signals, we may pull a fishing line and have a target move, that is the start. I normally toss a golf ball from behind a shooter as a start signal...WE never know what when or where is going to happen....even after all said and done, and finished....we have surprises.

WE may load each other mags...I may have one round or a full mag. If a Revo, I may have every other rd a dummy. Maybe if a person encounters a dummy he has to transition to weak hand, to a Bug, do a weak hand only mag change....we keep it spiced up.

Like the time I shook hand in leaving and the "test question" was -since my strong hand was in use - did I have a BUG if I needed it right that moment? I didn't.

Carry on...
 
Shake on it!

Steve said:


Like the time I shook hand in leaving and the "test question" was -since my strong hand was in use - did I have a BUG if I needed it right that moment?
_________________

Another point to consider for the careful among us. An extended hand is universally taken as a gesture of friendship and lack of hostility...at least
in our culture...and it's hard to resist responding to it. When the social situation calls for it, it's bad form to refuse a handshake. A stranger on the street is another matter. That gesture of good will could also be an attempt to gain control over you. Never accept a handshake if the situation is wrong for the gesture. I won't go into examples. Let your imagination run rampant.
 
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