In California, I dang sure wouldn't risk it. They (liberal California legislators) take their stupidity very seriously.
Why is the 45-70 so popular?
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In California, I dang sure wouldn't risk it. They (liberal California legislators) take their stupidity very seriously.
jdh
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I had an 1895 Marlin with no safety and Micro groove rifling. It shot jacketed bullets very accurately, not so great with hard cast lead. The local gun shop had just got in a new Marlin with return to Ballard rifling BUT, it had a safety. There was another customer looking at it who decided the safety ruined an otherwise suitable rifle. So, I smarted off and offered to sell him my well used but very nice 1895, which I just happened to have with me, at a price that would let buy the new one outright with money left over for a couple boxes of ammo. He couldn't get the money out of his wallet fast enough. (needless to say the shop owner was a bit miffed at me for stealing a deal from him and started giving me what for when the other guy left. His mood improved when I said to box up the new one and hand me a 4473. then he figured out what was going on.)
Anyway I said all that to say this, my Current 1895 will shoot cowboy loads to 2.5" 100 yard groups with open sights. With a max loaded 500 grain hard cast it will completely go through 3 standard ballistic gel blocks, or over 48 inches. I have never recovered a bullet from any animal I have shot with it.
Hmm, wonder what it would do with 500 grain solids for the 458.
I have also loaded some 410 shotshell equivalent shells. They feed okayish but do give the expected doughnut pattern.
Anyway I said all that to say this, my Current 1895 will shoot cowboy loads to 2.5" 100 yard groups with open sights. With a max loaded 500 grain hard cast it will completely go through 3 standard ballistic gel blocks, or over 48 inches. I have never recovered a bullet from any animal I have shot with it.
Hmm, wonder what it would do with 500 grain solids for the 458.
I have also loaded some 410 shotshell equivalent shells. They feed okayish but do give the expected doughnut pattern.
CoalTrain49
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Lots of states are banning lead. They haven't here yet but it's just a matter of time. I don't know if I could afford to load jacketed .458's for .50 apiece. I've just got my mind right about lead, it's future is bleak.
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I was just thinking that maybe it wasn't an asteroid, maybe the 45-70 wiped out all of the dinosaurs! Now the buffalo and the elephants - when will the 45-70 slaughter madness stop?????
At the very least, no state has banned lead for target shooting. Yet. In the interim, even us in California can still shoot comparatively cheap cast loads at the range and use the all copper stuff for hunting. I'm guessing that most of us fire less than a box of ammo per year at big game, so the cost increase can be planned for. My issue is that it limits what rounds we can hunt with.
Crowman
Member
The 45-70 is a versatile cartridge. It can punch paper or plow through a buffalo from tail to chin. The original requirement was to drop a horse at 100 yards (45-70-405 black powder loading). Carbine loads were later reduced to 55 grains and rifle loads at one time used a 500 grain bullet. So, the old timers tweeted it back in the day, too. As far as "rainbow" trajectory, all cartridges' exterior ballastics follow a parabola, some steeper than others, but given the wind direction & velocity and range, they are predictable.
As for recoil, I load and shoot cast 405 grain FN between 1150-1250 fps in a reproduction 1874 Sharps carbine with a steel butt plate and 22" barrel. Recoil is pleasant. No mule here. This is a CXP2 level cartridge loading that will also put down deer and black bear. This cartridge does not need speed to kill...it has shear mass.
On the other hand, I have an early Marlin Guide Gun that is my "Big Medicine" rifle. Touching off a hard cast Garrett 540 grain WNFPGC @ 1550 fps is a retina detaching, rock-your-world experience. This is a CXP4 level cartridge loading.
The bottom line is that this venerable cartridge can be loaded down to shoot pleasantly at paper and deer class animals in iconic American rifles but can also be loaded to heavy magnum level performances in a relatively inexpensive modern lever rifle with which to hunt dangerous game and have a prayer at stopping a charge.
Thx bob
I don't worry about pressure as I use holy black as the round was meant to be shot
I could run with 3031 but prefer bp
That is a gorgeous rifle. Ages ago and for giggles I wanted to see just how much penetration I could get from a 45/70. Took a 24"long x 14" dia piece of apple tree and placed it 100 yds. Using a 450 gr cast from lino at 1600 fps it penetrated 14 " into the log which was not anchored. Often wondered what would have happened if it was anchored down.
tark
Member
Who trained Yoda? Somebody told me but I forgot...OK. Ill stop.
You wanna know why the 45-70 is so much fun? Set up a big steel plate at fifty yards. At least a ten pound piece of steel. A hanging one that will ring when you shoot it.
Then shoot it with an 30-06 and listen to the faint ring and the slight movement. You might even put a hole in it, but that is energy wasted.
Then shoot it with a heavy 500 grain 45-70 load...... You will hear that ring a quarter mile away and the plate will swing violently, it might even flip .
Then take a pic of that huge grin on your face....
You wanna know why the 45-70 is so much fun? Set up a big steel plate at fifty yards. At least a ten pound piece of steel. A hanging one that will ring when you shoot it.
Then shoot it with an 30-06 and listen to the faint ring and the slight movement. You might even put a hole in it, but that is energy wasted.
Then shoot it with a heavy 500 grain 45-70 load...... You will hear that ring a quarter mile away and the plate will swing violently, it might even flip .
Then take a pic of that huge grin on your face....
Panzerschwein
member
Good little round. Plenty of stopping power on game and indians, as was found in older times.
gotboostvr
Member
Those loads I am using for plinking exceed what you would be getting out of a .44 magnum handgun (bigger bullet at a velocity approx. equal to big bullets in a .44 mag).
I'm in Ohio and I know what you're talking about. Buddies of mine are using 460 S&W Magnums and 45-70 Gov't. The particular local we hunt 50 yards would be a pretty long shot. I've been using 240gr 44mag XTP's and I'm not even running them at a max loading in either my carbine or pistols. They've been killing deer just fine.
forward observer
Member
This is off the original topic, but since it's been brought up.
How does a state issued hunting lead ban work on federally owned and managed land in California? Does state law override federal in that instance?
Given the fact that the new secretary of the interior recently overturn the Obama ban on lead use for hunting on public federal lands
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...als-ban-on-lead-bullets/ar-AAnJfF0?li=BBnb7Kz
This added to the fact that 45% of the land in California belongs to the federal government, and I'm assuming some of this can be hunted on.
https://ballotpedia.org/Federal_land_ownership_by_state
How does a state issued hunting lead ban work on federally owned and managed land in California? Does state law override federal in that instance?
Given the fact that the new secretary of the interior recently overturn the Obama ban on lead use for hunting on public federal lands
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...als-ban-on-lead-bullets/ar-AAnJfF0?li=BBnb7Kz
This added to the fact that 45% of the land in California belongs to the federal government, and I'm assuming some of this can be hunted on.
https://ballotpedia.org/Federal_land_ownership_by_state
Good question. This deserves it's own thread. I would start one but I know zero about this lead free thing.
someguy2800
Member
Shooting my 444 with 310 grain hard cast on a 3/8" steel plate today. Every other shot knocked the whole target stand over. Turned the plate into a dish shape. Life is good
Shooting my 444 with 310 grain hard cast on a 3/8" steel plate today. Every other shot knocked the whole target stand over. Turned the plate into a dish shape. Life is good
Why you could have done that with one shot from a 45-70!
someguy2800
Member
Why you could have done that with one shot from a 45-70!
That may be! I got the 444 because 44 bullets are easier to get for me local but it only likes hardcast anyway so I wish I had gotten a 45-70. At 2150 fps from a 22" barrel and still well below max load the 444 is no slouch either.
I know everyone here with there 45-70's are thinking they are Billy Dixon but 310 at 2150 sure sounds good to me.
Have you tried 300gr Sierra's? If you look look at my thread https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/444-w-300gr-sierras-question.814719/ you'll see what at least my 444S REALLY likes.
I don't actually think it's all that popular. Whenever I take mine to a deer camp you could bet money it's the only 45-70 there. I usually load mine with the 350 gr. Speer to just over 2300 fps in my Browning 1885 Traditional Hunter, long barrel, peep sights, makes a decent deer and pig gun but recoil is stiff.
Looking at the old black powder loads puts it in perspective for me. The old .45-90 load threw 300 gr at 1,554 ft/s. The big .50-110-300 pushed the same weight to 1,605, both from 26" barrels. Teddy Roosevelt wrote praise of the Winchester 1876 in .45-75, 'having killed every kind of game with it, from a grizzly bear to a big-horn.' And that was a mild 350 gr at 1,383 ft/s (rated from 30" barrel...). 310 at 2150 in .444 beats all those handily. But nowadays the common 300 gr, 1,800+ ft/s .45-70 factory ammo is considered pretty mild. And some even think the .444, with heavy cast bullets, is too small for big bears.
No it's not. I've killed bears with a .45 colt (auto correct will not let me spell the name) black hawk with 325 hard cast at only 1300.
But they are close range only. They drop like a stone. The bullets that is, as well as the bears.
The smokeless small bores are just a fashion. Mark my words, someone will get killed.
someguy2800
Member
Yep I have a bunch of those but I couldn't get them to stop vertically stringing. I worked everything over on the rifle twice bedding wise and was about to give up on it then tried hard cast as a last resort and that finally stopped it stringing. All the jacketed bullets I have string vertical by 6 inches. I can't make sense of it but I'm not going to argue with it anymore.
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