Why no CC at gun shows ?

[guyfromohio]

I wrote a nasty letter to our local gun show operators asking why they were profiting from the 2nd amendment, but unwilling to support it. The response was polite and explained that no insurance carrier will touch them unless they post the no carry signs. I accept that, but haven't visited one since.

 

[cfullgraf]

The gun shows in Knoxville, TN, have a no carry and no loaded magazine policy. All guns entering the show must be checked by the rented LEOs and rendered in-operable.

I do not know the basis for the policy but enough accidental discharges happen anyway that I am glad of the policy.

 

[newfalguy101]

In these parts, the shows are normally in either city or county owned properties, so its their rules, which almost universally involve NO CCW.

 

[c1ogden]

Its due to liability concerns. I've seen this prohibition posted at just about every gun show I've ever been to. Most of them have also had a notice explaining that ON DUTY law enforcement officers (who would be covered by their employer's liability insurance) were exempt from the ban as was anyone else who provided adequate proof of liability insurance.

 

[hso]

As pointed out, safety is the basis for it.

A lot of handling of firearms goes on at a show what with checking guns, mags, holsters, etc. and prohibiting having a loaded gun in anyone's possession helps prevent negligent discharges. Still with that prohibition people get shot at shows every year.

 

[Warp]

Why do gun shows have a rule of no carry.

Because people are stupid and not to be trusted.

That is how those in charge see it.

Can't say I blame them.

 

[beatledog7]

Law-abiding gun owners are supposed to be respectful and -- um, law abiding, right?

When you decide to carry a concealed firearm and attend a "no loaded guns" event, chances are you already know that policy will be in effect and that CCW holders are not meant to be exempt.

When you arrive and present your ticket for entry, you get asked if you have any loaded guns; you are CCing, but you say, "No" anyway, which is a big fat lie. In Virginia, these gun checkers are either sworn police officers or are overseen by sworn police officers, so you're effectively lying to a LEO who is acting in the course of his duties. If you're caught, you could face charges for that. At the very least, you could be made very uncomfortable for a good while, and you could lose that gun for a while as well.

You then enter, and every minute you are knowingly and blatantly violating the rights and/or wishes of that venue/host/organization, yet you expect them to respect your rights and/or wishes.

If something goes down, what are you going to do? If you draw, you will be revealing your lie. If you don't want to reveal your lie by drawing, then why are you carrying? NDs sometimes happen at gun shows, but armed assaults are pretty rare. How would you propose to stop an ND or shield yourself from one with a concealed handgun?

Doesn't seem very rational to me.

 

[MedWheeler]

I don't sweat it. I've never seen a "no guns" sign at a gun-related venue without immediately knowing it's a "lawyer sign". I carry all the time, so I do arrive at the show armed. I clear my weapon before leaving my vehicle, and present it for examination. The people who zip-tie it usually offer to cut the tie off for me when I leave if I want.
Most of the time, I have a second gun stashed in my vehicle in case I don't want to re-load right away there in the lot.

 

[mljdeckard]

Well, in Utah, they aren't.

If "Something goes down" that is significant enough to justify drawing my gun, what do I care if people thought I was lying about anything? I won't be the only one, and everyone will be GLAD SOMEONE WAS CARRYING. Who ever said a concealed gun was a defense to a negligent discharge from someone else?

If I have to park two venues away, (because some brilliant marketing manager realized that it was a great idea to hold a crafts show in the other half of the convention center, to give the wives a reason to come with their husbands and cross-rationalize spending money,) this means I have to traverse streets and parking structures TWICE to get to and from my vehicle. And then there's lunch, in another public venue. To not carry at the show means I will have to do all of these things unarmed.

If it is posted, but with no metal detectors, nor any other kind of check to verify, with no force of law to back it up, nor any actual intention on the part of the poster to actually have anyone disarm, it is no different than a movie theater or restaurant that posts but doesn't enforce, which I also flagrantly ignore, in some cases having checked with the management and actually verified that they only post because of corporate policy, they could flat care less if anyone is carrying. If this causes you angst, because my state is more permissive than yours, that is entirely YOUR problem.

 

[Win73]

Why do gun shows have a rule of no carry. I would think if any place were to allow it it would be here. Just wondering the thinking on this.

I can think of one very good reason for no loaded gun rules at gun shows. My son was shot at a gun show. One person brought in a loaded Walther PP .32 auto. He did not check it at the door like he was supposed to. He gave it to another person he was trying to sell it to. He pulled the clip (I know, magazine) out but left a round in the chamber. The person he gave it to is the one who actually fired the gun. He claimed it was cocked when handed to him and he took the safety off to decock it and it fired then. If you know anything about Walther PP's, you know it couldn't have happened that way because a PP has a hammer drop safety. If the safety had been on, the hammer would have already been dropped.

The shooter was considerate enough to have his hand between my son and the gun. He blew off one of his own fingers. It must have been a frangible bullet because it fragmented in his hand and the fragments hit my son. Four or five fragments hit my son in the back and left side and one cut a slit through the pull over shirt he was wearing. If that guy hadn't had his hand in front of the gun, my son would have taken the full force of that bullet. He was only three or four feet from the shooter.

We did find out how to get through the emergency room quickly. We were filling out the paperwork to admit my son. The gal behind the desk got to the question, "Why are you here?" I answered "Gunshot wound." I don't know where she came from because I had not seen her, but when I said gunshot wound, a nurse swooped down and grabbed my son and said "You come with me!" She then pointed at me and said "You fill out the paperwork!" Also it wasn't long until the police showed up.

 

[Warp]

If something goes down, what are you going to do? If you draw, you will be revealing your lie.

If "something goes down" that justifies my use of deadly force I really, truly, could not care less about this. I don't think anybody else would care, either, at that point.

 

[mljdeckard]

^^Among other obvious failures in this case, he wasn't carrying it concealed with the intent to only draw it if necessary for self defense. He DREW it with the intent to SELL it. That changes everything in and of itself.

I hope you boy wasn't hurt too badly.

 

[cheeze]

Wow Win73, glad the guy's hand was in the way and your son is alright! My position is that concealed is concealed. If you can't handle that in every circumstance except during an immediate clear threat to life, then clear and check the weapon or leave it at home. Stupidity unfortunately has no effect on fertility these days, so they breed and we have to make rules to limit the effects of their stupidity.

 

[guyfromohio]

Of course, a smart thief may see the walk to the parking area a prime target..... "ooh guns, money, and nothing is loaded!!!!"

 

[beatledog7]

If "something goes down" that justifies my use of deadly force I really, truly, could not care less about this. I don't think anybody else would care, either, at that point.

But keep in mind there are armed LEOs present, and it is their job to keep things in order and to respond IAW their training and their oath if "something goes down."

Many of the reasons most frequently cited for CCW: a cop is too heavy, when seconds count the police are just minutes away...are negated at the show because the police are present.

If we want our position regarding RKBA to be respected, but we don't grant equal respect to those who ask that we do not carry, we are just plain wrong. We always have another option regarding places where CCW is disallowed, whether we agree with the policy/rule/law or not: We can choose not to go there.

 

[fatcat4620]

We have no loaded guns and no loose ammo. With a few NDs a year even with those rules in place I would never go to the shows if we did not have them.

 

[Iramo94]

My local shows have a no ammo policy, and they have a metal detector on the way in. The shows happen on land owned by the county government (expo center adjacent to the local college campus).

 

[OilyPablo]

No ammo? Do they sell ammo there?

 

[scaatylobo]

@ mljdeckard

I totally agree and do the same and have for DECADES.

When I was LEO and did ID myself,I was told to empty my weapon at door.

First of all that was against my dept rules & reg's = it was not among the list of reasons to draw my gun .

Second there was no discharge / sand pail.

So I adopted my own rules & regs as did you.

The reason I see for not allowing loaded guns [ are not all guns always loaded ] in the show is, many look to get a holster or mag for the gun they are wearing and then unholster a loaded weapon.

THE simplest way to stop any problem is to POST THE LAW,stating that to draw a loaded gun for ANY reason less than S/D is a felony [ reckless endangerment & menacing ].

Then prosecute a few and the problem will be solved.

 

[leadcounsel]

With all the gun handling that occurs, it's probably a good idea to make sure all guns are unloaded. Every once in awhile, there's an ND at a gun show. In fact, here in Washington there was one a few months back from a dealer who forgot his .380 was loaded - thankfully the shot when through the ceiling.

Look I'm all for the right to carry, but in a room full of people handling, pointing guns, pulling triggers I'd prefer folks don't have loaded guns around. I've literally found myself having guns aimed at met left and right at gun shows...

 

[Warp]

But keep in mind there are armed LEOs present, and it is their job to keep things in order and to respond IAW their training and their oath if "something goes down."

Many of the reasons most frequently cited for CCW: a cop is too heavy, when seconds count the police are just minutes away...are negated at the show because the police are present.

Even at a gun show the police are not everywhere at once and there is no guarantee that I will have no need to do anything, ever, because there is this one officer over on the other side of the exhibition hall.

If we want our position regarding RKBA to be respected, but we don't grant equal respect to those who ask that we do not carry, we are just plain wrong. We always have another option regarding places where CCW is disallowed, whether we agree with the policy/rule/law or not: We can choose not to go there.

What they didn't know sure didn't hurt them.

 

[scaatylobo]

fyi

I go to MANY shows every year and at NONE are there LEO's.

There were at Rochester,but that show seems to be ended.

And there are dang few LEO's and more 'security guards' that are NOT trained LEO's.

I even set up at a few shows and NONE of them allow us to be armed,even though there are NO LEO's to guard the premise.

The general rule of the "dealers" [ many private sellers like me ] is we keep our shirts out and jackets on !.

 

[beatledog7]

What they didn't know sure didn't hurt them.

Is this your actual position? What other places are you carrying where it is prohibited by policy, law, or the property owner's wishes? What other acts do you think it's ok to commit as long as the persons who, if they knew you were doing it would consider themselves violated, don't know?

Would anyone who thinks this way care to address the question of why your rights and wishes outweigh those of other people and place you above the law?

And how are such willful violations "High Road"?

This sort of stuff is exactly what anti-gun folks want to hear us say so they can make the case that we are a bunch of lawless, trigger happy neanderthals.

 

[Warp]

Is this your actual position? What other places are you carrying where it is prohibited by policy, law, or the property owner's wishes? What other acts do you think it's ok to commit as long as the persons who, if they knew you were doing it would consider themselves violated, don't know?

Would anyone who thinks this way care to address the question of why your rights and wishes outweigh those of other people and place you above the law?

And how are such willful violations "High Road"?

This sort of stuff is exactly what anti-gun folks want to hear us say so they can make the case that we are a bunch of lawless, trigger happy neanderthals.

What law?

lulz at being trigger happy because I report to have not unloaded my carry gun at a gun show.

 

[beatledog7]

Warp,

No doubt you are a safe carrier, and I'm not calling you trigger happy -- far from it. I'm saying that if we all took the attitude that we and we alone will choose when and where we are going to carry, rules be damned, the anti-gun crowd would eat it up.

And what about the herd of Bubbas who are there carrying loaded guns because they feel the same as you? Are you ok that they are less trained and less competent than you, yet they are in a roomful of gun people, showing, buying, selling, trading stories, muzzling the room, etc.? If Bubba next to you draws a revolver from appendix carry to show to another Bubba, and you can clearly see it's loaded, what's your gut reaction? Sure, he took it a step further than you're taking it, but still, you broke the same rule he broke. The rules don't say you can't show someone a gun -- that's what everyone is there to do.

When you apply for a CCW license in Georgia, do you sign a document saying that you will abide by applicable laws and regulations? If you knowingly carry where you're asked not to, aren't you in violation of the spirit if not the letter of that agreement?

The question remains, why is ok to violate rules provided nobody knows? Is that what a CCW is supposed to be for, a license to violate rules?