Why real BP?

[Broadbill]

If Triple7 and other substitutes have the same properties as BP but are less corrosive and easier to clean why should I shoot BP? Are there performance factors I don't know about? Is it tradition and just the way its supposed to be?
I know that I don't want to shoot sabots and 209's.

And if BP what are the differences?
I looked at Grafs quickly and saw;
Goex
Goex Express
Graf-Alder
Swiss
and I'm sure there are others.

Whats what?
And while I'm on the subject, what would a good book be so that I can leave you guys alone?

Broadbill

 

[Cosmoline]

They don't have the same properties. They are more difficult to ignite and behave differently, esp. from a flinter. They're probably fine for a modern in-line I suppose, since that's really what they were made for. But it's not the same experience.

All true modern black powder is essentially the same combination of minerals with the addition of graphite. The variation comes from the quality of the ingredients and the care of selection, but the big difference is simply from how finely it's ground. Way back in the early days of BP in Europe and China, the alchemists would make it in a true powder form, like talc. It burned very poorly when packed into barrels tightly. It also had the very unfortunate habit of turning into dust clouds that were highly explosive so making it was very hazardous. Then someone figured out how to mill it wet and make it into corn-like grains, then sort the grains by running them over wire screens. That's pretty much what we use now, 400 years later.

 

[sundance44s]

The nature of the beast works best with real black powder ..with all its smells and nasty fouling.
Think about it this way ...gas powered cars and trucks run best on ...petro , gas , black gold .
folks keep trying to replace it with subs ....and they`ll run on corn and mistery fuels ...but they`ll run best on dino fuel ..thats the stuff thats been here since dirt .
real black powder has been around since dirt also .
Inline rifles ....thats another beast . no comment in that direction from me .

 

[SHIPCHIEF]

What They Said!
I have Goex, 777, and Pyrodex. I play with them all, but I trust real blackpowder the most.
777 sure does clean up well.
Real BP cleans up well, but leaves the cleaning tools in a mess. Really no big deal. The barrel gets fouled after a few shots, and you should run a bore brush down, then tilt the barrel down to let the ash run out the barrel, but it's no big deal.
When you hunt, you might need to reload once or twice? so Pyrodex and 777 don't really have that much of an advantage over Blackpowder in a practical sense.
Use what you like.

 

[arcticap]

If Triple7 and other substitutes have the same properties as BP but are less corrosive and easier to clean why should I shoot BP?

They are similar to an extent but don't have the same properties.
Black powder burns differently because it's an explosive with a lower ignition temperature rather than just being flammable like the substitutes.
Using sundance44's analogy, it's sort of like the difference between gasoline and diesel.

Are there performance factors I don't know about?

Yes, people notice differences in consistency and accuracy in some guns. Every gun is different. The difference might only be noticiable at long range or if precision shooting depending on all kinds of variables.

Is it tradition and just the way its supposed to be?

Yes and no.
Some of the semi-custom long barrels are designed to be shot with black powder. They have very deep rifling, some with round bottom grooves that are designed to hold more of the black powder fouling.
Many factory guns have shallow rifling that just can't hold as much powder fouling.
It is a matter of tradition and to some extent performance too.

And while I'm on the subject, what would a good book be so that I can leave you guys alone?

There may be different editions of these books which may be available from a local library.

"The Complete Black Powder Handbook" by Sam Fadala

"The Lyman Black Powder Handbook" from the Lyman Company

"The Gun Digest Blackpowder Loading Manual" by Sam Fadala

 

[JCT]

I've given 777 a fair shot, had a couple pounds for a few years. Nice and clean, horribly unreliable and hygroscopic. After sitting over a year in a flask, it's a puck ...break it up and load your chambers and it won't fire. It's sugar based ( fructose or sucrose, i forget )..bad idea if you ask me. Black powder has no expiration date, is non toxic, cheap and easy to clean with soap and water.
I tried pyrodex too...corrosive as hell, guns will rust the day you shoot them. I guess the word " Fad" comes to mind. BP has been around 100's of years, subs for only a short time. I think they got it right the first time with BP. Try the alder based or swiss if you do. Cleaner , hotter and less corrosive. Willow and Alder make the very best black powders.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Pyrodex is an invention without a benefit. When it was developed black powder was strictly classed ass an exxplosive. All kinds of shipping and storage regulations, accomodations (special storgae vaults) and rules that made it just to darn difficult for some to obtain or carry in stock. Pyrodex, although more corrosive was classed ass a propellant annd could be shipped and stored like any other "white" gun powder. Stores could carry it on the shelf without the special shipping and storage vaults that holy black necessitated. Skip forward thirty years. Black can be shipped. It still requires some special storage, but somewhhat lightened shipping rules, it is not quite as difficult as years back.

So Pyrodex's main advantage was in shipping and storage regs and restrictions. It had nothing to do with whether it was cleaner or less corrosive. It just isn't, on either count.

Trip 7 while cleaner, just doeesn't have the igniteability, consistency or reliability of holy black.

I have nothing against anything new. But for there to be an advantage, it either has to be cheaper, cleaner, less corrosive or more reliable. As yet I have not tried any substitute that is overall better than black. I imagine that the day will come, just isn't here yet.

 

[arcticap]

Pyrodex is an invention without a benefit.

Pyrodex P usually produces noticiably more velocity from revolvers than blackpowder.

So Pyrodex's main advantage was in shipping and storage regs and restrictions. It had nothing to do with whether it was cleaner or less corrosive. It just isn't, on either count.

Many people really believe and claim just the opposite that Pyrodex P is cleaner than Goex.
Many people on this forum shoot with Pyrodex and are happy with it.

Every powder has its advantages and disadvantages.
No powder only has advantages.
Even though they all work, none of them are immune from having some defects and flaws.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Most substitutes produce more pressure than black. I don't care what most believe. Take two cups of water, add 200 grains of black to one and 200 grains of Pyromania to the other, mix well and test the PH. Proof positive. no belief necessary.

Another test. take two shallow steel bowls. light 50 grain piles of black in one, say 5 times and do the same with Pryro in the other. Put them in a closet for two weeks and then check to see which has rusted most.

 

[Jim Watson]

I shoot real BP because I shoot competitive BPCR and the fakes won't do the job.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I'm with Jim Watson. If you shoot in serious competition, the substitutes are a very poor option.

 

[fyrfyter43]

When it was developed black powder was strictly classed ass an exxplosive. All kinds of shipping and storage regulations, accomodations (special storgae vaults) and rules that made it just to darn difficult for some to obtain or carry in stock.

Actually, that's not entirely true. Black powder was still easily available without all the storage and shipping regulations that we have to deal with now when Pyrocrap first came out. I vividly remember buying GOEX right off the shelf in a local gun shop 25 years ago...it was right next to the Pyrocrap.

 

[fyrfyter43]

If Triple7 and other substitutes have the same properties as BP but are less corrosive and easier to clean why should I shoot BP?

None of the substitutes have the same properties as black powder. For one, ignition temperature is much higher for the substitutes. And I honestly don't believe that any of them are less corrosive or easier to clean. It really doesn't get much easier than soap and water for black powder. And have you ever seen a gun that wasn't properly cleaned after shooting Pyrocrap? I recently saw one that was put away for about 6 months without being cleaned. The rifling is mostly gone, and there are pits so deep I would be afraid to fire it with even a light charge.

Black powder is also a good deal cheaper than ANY of the substitute powders. This is from a post I made less than a month ago: "I just checked Cabela's website. The cheapest substitute they have is Pyrodex at $19.16 per lb. shipped (for a 25 lb case, provided Cabelas can ship 25 lbs in a single case) . 3F GOEX is $15.97 per lb shipped from Grafs (also for a 25 lb case). With a little bit of shopping around, it can be found a bit cheaper. "

Black powder is readily available in the continental U.S. The last case of powder I ordered from Grafs was delivered to my place of employment within 5 days. A little bit of advance planning ensures that I always have enough BP on hand.

 

[mykeal]

fyrfyter43 is correct. 35 years ago Goex and Dupont were on the counter at my local outfitter, then Pyrodex came along. Both were available side by side for a long time. This issue about having to keep real black powder in a locked magazine is a more recent thing.

 

[arcticap]

I'm with Jim Watson. If you shoot in serious competition, the substitutes are a very poor option.

Conversely, for many serious hunters who hunt with fast twist barrels, black powder would be a poor option.

Here's an inline design marked Billinghurst that's documented in 1860. Similar to the inline design of cap & ball revolvers, the flame takes a shorter and more direct path to the powder. It's just an improved alternative design, that's all.

 

[fyrfyter43]

Conversely, for many serious hunters who hunt with fast twist barrels, black powder would be a poor option.

I don't know that that's necessarily true. Just like with any muzzleloader, load development is a key step that is so often overlooked by those shooting inlines with substitute powders.

 

[arcticap]

I don't know that that's necessarily true. Just like with any muzzleloader, load development is a key step that is so often overlooked by those shooting inlines with substitute powders.

Well I don't know if it's necessarily true that competition pistol shooters are better off shooting black powder either as others have suggested.
I guess in the end each individual decides what shoots best in their own gun, whether that's competition, hunting or plinking, revolvers, rifles, or shotguns.

The greater amount of flames, smoke and residue alone that are created by shooting black powder is not always more desirable for every kind of shooting.

Revolvers are prone to binding.
That's not even mentioning the differences in velocity which has hunting applications.
The question doesn't just pertain to target shooting since the original poster is a deer hunter. And even if he wasn't, velocity can affect distance and flat trajectory.
There's also BPCR shooters who prefer substitute powders.
Competition shooting is only a part of muzzle loading.
It's not the whole sport, so why not acknowlege the truth that each powder has some good and bad aspects?

 

[fyrfyter43]

Well I don't know if it's necessarily true that competition pistol shooters are better off shooting black powder either as others have suggested.
I guess in the end each individual decides what shoots best in their own gun, whether that's competition, hunting or plinking, revolvers, rifles, or shotguns.

The greater amount of flames, smoke and residue alone that are created by shooting black powder is not always more desirable for every kind of shooting.

Revolvers are prone to binding.
That's not even mentioning the differences in velocity which has hunting applications.
The question doesn't just pertain to target shooting since the original poster is a deer hunter. And even if he wasn't, velocity can affect distance and flat trajectory.
There's also BPCR shooters who prefer substitute powders.
Competition shooting is only a part of muzzle loading.
It's not the whole sport, so why not acknowlege the truth that each powder has some good and bad aspects?

I don't know either whether competition pistol shooters are better off with black powder. Then again, nobody has claimed that black powder is better for competition pistol shooters. I personally have never fired a single shot in any kind of competition, other than friendly, informal shoots at the range or online "postal" shoots. I am strictly a hunter.

You say that revolvers are prone to binding. The last time I had my Uberti 1860 at the range I put 72 balls through it using GOEX FFFg. It was still turning without even a hint of drag, much less binding. I made no effort to clean it while I was at the range. The only reason I didn't keep shooting was because I had to pick my daughter up from school. I really doubt that any substitute powder would do any better than that.

I really could not care less about a minor claimed increase in velocity by switching to a more corrosive, more expensive substitute powder. If a slight increase in velocity makes that big of a difference in the range and trajectory of your projectile, then you are definitely pushing the envelope of effective range. I know precisely what my PRB will do within my effective range. A slight increase in velocity would not have enough of an effect to matter at all when it comes to hunting accuracy.

Why not just acknowledge the truth that "new and improved" ain't necessarily any better than that which has worked quite well for hundreds of years?

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Fyrfytr: Actually, that's not entirely true. Black powder was still easily available without all the storage and shipping regulations that we have to deal with now when Pyrocrap first came out. I vividly remember buying GOEX right off the shelf in a local gun shop 25 years ago...it was right next to the Pyrocrap.

While I share your sentiments about pyro, 35 years ago, I worked in sporting goods stores.. Black powder had to be shipped by special freight, had to be stored in special expensive magazines and for over certain amounts had to be in special bunkers. (I had a tour of the bunker behind Ron Shirk Shooter's Supplies years back.) Black was not supposed to be on the shelf, but kept in the reinforced magazines. Looked like metal ice chests on wheels. Although many shops flaunted the rules and had it on the shelf. (Some had it out only during store hours and packed away when closed.) There was a time that a purchaser had to sign a form to get it. Zoning rules in many jurisdictions made it illegal to store black in stores, etc. In some states, licensed day care homes could not have explosives on premises. Stores were limited by BATF to 50 lbs of black with the small magazines and permanent magazines were required to have higher amounts. What you see and saw in the stores was often in violation of the rules. Actually fear of terrorists drove much of the regs back then. For three or four years I had to sign a log sheet and show my drivers license for every black powder purchase I made. The announcement of Pyrodex seemed like deliverance from all the regs and limits.

Pyrodex could be shipped and sold like any other reload powder. It could sit on the shelf and be shipped UPS. I purchased a can of Pyrodex in 1983, still have most of it. It near ate my rifle from the inside. But it had been announced and touted in the press for a few years before that. As I recall, the factory had an explosion and that delayed mass production for nearly a year.

 

[arcticap]

Why not just acknowledge the truth that "new and improved" ain't necessarily any better than that which has worked quite well for hundreds of years?

I already did in my reply in Post #5 which is below:

Are there performance factors I don't know about?

Yes, people notice differences in consistency and accuracy in some guns. Every gun is different. The difference might only be noticiable at long range or if precision shooting depending on all kinds of variables

.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Articap. I have never had a revolver bind up, even after 120 shots. I do however load with the lube on top the ball to seal the chamber. That way the face of the cylinder, forcing cone and bore are all spattered and spread with reesidue-softening lube before the powder fouling hits it. I theorize that binding up is experienced more by the shooters who use wonder wads under the ball and forego any lube.

 

[ClemBert]

Part of the problem with the bad reviews on 777 is that some people (and you know who you are) fail to read the instructions. The two biggest mistakes people who don't/can't read instructions is they:

1. Fail to reduce the 777 load by 15% to get the same power factor as black powder.
2. Compress 777 like it is black powder. This will cause accuracy problems. Don't do it!

Geez fellas...just do a little reading and you'll figure out the differences between black powder and substitutes. All powders have their pro's and con's. There is no silver bullet (pun intended).

 

[BaltimoreBoy]

I don't consider myself a 'serious' BP shooter. Still I have been satisfied with Pyrodex in my stainless Ruger New Model Old Army. Your choice probably depends on the use you intend to put the substitute to.

 

[fyrfyter43]

zimmerstutzen, you may be correct about BP storage requirements in the past. Or maybe there were different requirements from state to state?

I was fairly young when Pyrocrap first was introduced. However, I remember seeing it on the shelf alongside cans of GOEX. This is in several gun shops that I used to frequent, including one that catered heavily to the law enforcement community. In fact, for many years they were the only somewhat-local source for uniforms, gun leather and other law enforcement equipment. I can assure you that they would not have had black powder on the shelf if they were not legally allowed to.

And yes, there was an explosion in the Pyrocrap plant that killed its inventor, Dan Pawlak, on January 27, 1977.

 

[fyrfyter43]

Also, according to an article I read today, one of the raw materials used to make Pyrocrap is dicyanamide. According to the article, the packaging has large bright red warning labels on all sides of these bags that say "avoid heat or flame, when heated to decomposition emits highly toxic fumes of cyanide."