I don't care for substitute black powder, or is it synthetic black powder. I had a can of it back in the 80s and wasn’t impressed. If you like the way is shoots use it, I believe modern muzzle loaders are designed around it so they may work better with it but I wouldn’t know. I don’t even mind all the editorializing coughing and hacking that goes on around me when I’m at the range with the old .54 Renegade.
Why real BP?
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BHP FAN
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''Why not just acknowledge the truth that "new and improved" ain't necessarily any better than that which has worked quite well for hundreds of years?''
I always have and always do.Goex is my brand,though I've used Swiss and Elephant.I do NOT like Pyrodex,[I like what you call it] and will not take it when it's given to me for free.I've even used pyrodex in my garden just to get rid of it after it ruined a favorite flask.It's good for roses is about all I can say about it that's kind.
I always have and always do.Goex is my brand,though I've used Swiss and Elephant.I do NOT like Pyrodex,[I like what you call it] and will not take it when it's given to me for free.I've even used pyrodex in my garden just to get rid of it after it ruined a favorite flask.It's good for roses is about all I can say about it that's kind.
SHIPCHIEF
Member
In light of the warning against compressing 777, I wouldn't use it in a cap n ball revolver. When you swage the oversized balls into the cylinder, you inadvertantly compress the charge.
Besides, the fireball and smoke from the Blackpowder is expected and appreciated.
The previous comment about placing lube over the balls in the cylinder is key to success, and a prudent safety measure.
Still, no matter what propellant you use, the gun must be cleaned right away.
It should be swabbed out the next day, and, depending on what that patch shows, more cleaning.
Off topic a bit, but my crusty Moisin Nagant needs to be swabbed out every day for a week after shooting.
Besides, the fireball and smoke from the Blackpowder is expected and appreciated.
The previous comment about placing lube over the balls in the cylinder is key to success, and a prudent safety measure.
Still, no matter what propellant you use, the gun must be cleaned right away.
It should be swabbed out the next day, and, depending on what that patch shows, more cleaning.
Off topic a bit, but my crusty Moisin Nagant needs to be swabbed out every day for a week after shooting.
BHP FAN
Member
Chief,if you clean the barrel with VERY hot water or alcohol before your usual cleaning,you can just check it a week later[and you should,just to be sure ],and it'll still sparkle.The corrosive salts just need to be neutralized.
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I only shoot competition and black powder only. I have tried all of the other
kind and all of the serious pistol shooters shoot black. Why? accuracry plain
and simple. Believe me, if anything would shoot better, we would be using it.
kind and all of the serious pistol shooters shoot black. Why? accuracry plain
and simple. Believe me, if anything would shoot better, we would be using it.
Broadbill
Member
Believe me, if anything would shoot better, we would be using it.
That says it right there.
BB
That says it right there.
BB
Nearly the same as elemental sulfur, which is used in black powder. The only difference is the product of combustion, but the health hazard is identical - H2S is highly toxic and causes pulmonary edema that can occur up to 48 hours after exposure amongst other things.
madcratebuilder
Member
kwhi43 is one of the more serious black powder shooters that walk the planet. You can take what says to the bank.
SHIPCHIEF
Member
BHP;
I use boiling water to finish cleaning after a soapy scubbing, but I never tried alcohol.
Just denatured alcohol from the drugstore? Or something stronger?
I'm pretty sure the boiling hot barrel dries quickly, and I dry patch it to be sure after it cools. The final swab with alcohol does sound like a 'belt and suspenders' approach.
I have always final swabbed with Hoppes #9. Never had a rusty barrel in 30 years.
Now Hoppes has #9 for blackpowder. What is different about it?
I just used it the first time this week. Not sure yet.
Anyway, on topic: I try the others, but I trust BP the most. I kept my 2nd model Dragoon loaded for near a year, with Crisco over the balls, and it fired perfectly. It was my home defense gun when I was a young student.
So I trust black powder because I'm conservative, and it has proven it's worth to me.
I use boiling water to finish cleaning after a soapy scubbing, but I never tried alcohol.
Just denatured alcohol from the drugstore? Or something stronger?
I'm pretty sure the boiling hot barrel dries quickly, and I dry patch it to be sure after it cools. The final swab with alcohol does sound like a 'belt and suspenders' approach.
I have always final swabbed with Hoppes #9. Never had a rusty barrel in 30 years.
Now Hoppes has #9 for blackpowder. What is different about it?
I just used it the first time this week. Not sure yet.
Anyway, on topic: I try the others, but I trust BP the most. I kept my 2nd model Dragoon loaded for near a year, with Crisco over the balls, and it fired perfectly. It was my home defense gun when I was a young student.
So I trust black powder because I'm conservative, and it has proven it's worth to me.
BHP FAN
Member
Yeah,Chief,just drug store or Winco cheapo alcohol.In my milsurps,I clean with a patch soaked in boiling water,or alcohol,then a boresnake or brush .I use WD40 instead of solvent,it chases any residual water out.A final dry patch, a little light machine oil on any working parts, and I'm done.This works pretty good for me.I have a pretty good little collection,and some of them only get out maybe once in a year.Before the alcohol treatment I used to have to clean 'em all weekly,because of the commie milsurp ammo I use.If you have even a modest sized collection,I bet it gets old pretty quick.Same treatment works for black powder as well.
BHP FAN
Member
I love Hoppes no. 9, but for black powder, Birchwood Casey # 77 solvent is really tough to beat.When I'm at the range I always have a bottle to moisten a brush or patch with.I think it's just alcohol with a tea spoon of transmission fluid in it,though.
Mr_Pale_Horse
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Moreover, there is BP, and there is Swiss BP. There are smokeless powders (Unique anyone?) that leave more fouling that Swiss 3F.
BHP FAN
Member
I THINK the secret to Swiss is in the graphite content.
SHIPCHIEF
Member
BHP
I just read a bit from Chuckhawks Black powder page about different sources of carbon for black powder over the years. Some being called Brown powder by using a selected species of wood which was then under charred (hence, brown).
Here's the link:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_pyrodex.htm
So your opinion seems possible.
I just read a bit from Chuckhawks Black powder page about different sources of carbon for black powder over the years. Some being called Brown powder by using a selected species of wood which was then under charred (hence, brown).
Here's the link:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_pyrodex.htm
So your opinion seems possible.
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Graphite glaze on sporting ( Fg type ) powders, is only to help it flow and to be less susceptible to static. The secret to Swiss BP is Alder charcoal , where GOEX uses Maple. Alder and Willow are less dense hardwood, offer more surface areas and better pores for the oxidizer to get into. So you essentially get a hotter powder, which equates to faster and cleaner too.
I must be doing something wrong. I've yet to try black powder. I've used Pyrodex 30/45 pellets, AAP and Triple 7. They all shot great. Trip 7 is definitely hotter but leaves almost no residue at all. The caps leave more dirt. I don't have misfires and I put the ROA in the dishwasher for cleaning and then squirt it with oil. Accuracy? It shoots better than I can and I'm shooting conical bullets which I'm frequently told don't shoot well.
The Triple 7 warnings don't exactly say "Do not compress". It says the following:
Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do not reduce loads by means of filler wads or inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation, which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property.
Granted, I'm not sure who decides what "heavily compress" is. I am eager to now test how different compression affects accuracy.
I have to confess, I like Triple 7 but I'm shooting a 5 1/2" stainless revolver with fixed sites.
The Triple 7 warnings don't exactly say "Do not compress". It says the following:
Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do not reduce loads by means of filler wads or inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation, which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property.
Granted, I'm not sure who decides what "heavily compress" is. I am eager to now test how different compression affects accuracy.
I have to confess, I like Triple 7 but I'm shooting a 5 1/2" stainless revolver with fixed sites.
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BHP FAN
Member
The type of Charcoal itself,you say? Thanks Chief,and JCT. I LOVE this site.After very nearly forty years of playing with black powder guns,I'm still learning new stuff. So I wonder is it the tightness of grain of the parent wood the factor,or it's hardness?
AbitNutz - the words you're quoting from Hogdgon's web site are for Triple 7 used in cartridges. The advice for Triple 7 in percussion guns is further down the page and doesn't mention compression per se. It does say:
The advice about minding compression force in percussion guns is more anecdotal. It's been my experience, and I believe many others as well, that 'firmly seating' is the operative term; in other words, don't compress 777, rather seat the ball on the powder with enough authority that you're sure it's seated, but don't try to compress the powder. The performance of 777 when 'heavily' compressed is inconsistent, tending to FTF's rather than presenting any danger to the gun or shooter.
It appears to me to be a matter of describing how you make metallic cartridges compared to loading black powder.
I think using a compound reloading press to "heavily compress" a Triple 7 load is well beyond the force that can be generated with a ramrod or revolver ram. So it looks to me, and like you I'm reading what I think it means more than what it says, that the term "heavily compress" (in Triple 7 speak) only relates to cartridges....thus why I used that quote. So can I "heavily compress" a load in a BP revolver, using my perhaps convoluted logic? I don't think I can.
Not to say you've not had FTF's in your experience with Triple 7 but I've fired just short of a pound of it so far with no such issue. What can I say? Your mileage may vary?
I think using a compound reloading press to "heavily compress" a Triple 7 load is well beyond the force that can be generated with a ramrod or revolver ram. So it looks to me, and like you I'm reading what I think it means more than what it says, that the term "heavily compress" (in Triple 7 speak) only relates to cartridges....thus why I used that quote. So can I "heavily compress" a load in a BP revolver, using my perhaps convoluted logic? I don't think I can.
Not to say you've not had FTF's in your experience with Triple 7 but I've fired just short of a pound of it so far with no such issue. What can I say? Your mileage may vary?
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
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Funny damn thing to me. I have used 777 in my .45 inlines, my "47, my '58's, my '49's, and my .22 Mag Mini Revolvers and have NEVER had a problem. They all shoot a load that's as hot as hell for which ever gun and believe me I'vd done plenty of shooting, and they really need hardly any cleaning at all. Triple Seven is the cleanest burning, hardest hitting and most dependable powder on the market for blackpowder firearms hands down. Cannot be argued with or disputed honestly. (Now, I didn't say it had to be someone's favorite go to powder.)
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Smokin_Gun
Member
I'm sorry to have to beg to differ from you Gentleman of the Charcoal ... but 777 ain't never been close to black powder and never will be jus' by chemical make up alone. Nor if loaded in a wheel gun C&B... If a person used BP all his shootin' career then tried a lb/. of 777 they would have a hard time gettin' consistant loads. The reverse ain't true...
I'll guarentee you that much :O)
I'll guarentee you that much :O)
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Come to think about it the instructions concerning compression of 777 came from a phone call I made to Hodgdon's technical support staff. I thought I had also read this somewhere in Hodgdon's printed material and if that is not the case then I read it somewhere that seem credible...sorry I don't have a reference for ya. Ignore my advice if that seems like the right thing to do.
Smokin_Gun
Member
Clembert the knowledge about compression comes from those BP users or 777users that have used both an commented as I did.
imho
imho
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
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Smoking Gun..Sir, didn't say it was close to the make up of black powder. What I was referring to STRICTLY was the power of the powder and the ability to get it from here to there with the most benefits and highly satisfactory results. Wasn't speaking ill of the Holy Black. 777 is a strong ass powder and that's why they tell you to reduce the load when using it....
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