Why would I spend $300 on just a knife?

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I agree. I bought a top o9f the line SOG (a one off Randall style Bowie) for a song one day on close out. I paid like $120.00 for it in about 1990. It was a little too big to carry on hunts and camping so it just sat in my safe. I put it up for sale and got $650.00 for it. It turned out SOG only made like 5 of them and it was something special.
 
12gaugeTim sez:
Pretentious is a word that pops into my head, for some reason.

Oh really? Why is that? Because I think that;

a) it is foolish to claim that you can't get your moneys forth if you pay more than 60-80 dollars for a knife

B) it is ludicrous to claim that a knife has held a perfect factory edge for 13 years of use

C) it is foolish to use a knife for something it was not designed for

Tell me again, which one of these things is "pretentious" on my part.

One more thing about solipsism. A person who suffers from the aforementioned disorder often take offense if someone actually claims to have true knowledge of... anything, because in the mind of a solipsist no such thing as "truth" exists.
 
Every item manufactured has a price point of deminishing returns. For handguns it's probably $500-800. For cars it's probably $30,000. For watches it's probably $100. For suits it's probably $500. For dress shoes it's probably $100. For neck ties it's $20. Anything beyond that you're paying less for function and more for brand name, prestige, status, etc. There's value in paying extra for certain mechanical things, like cars, guns, etc. with lots of moving parts, design features, warranty, quality, etc. Other things, not so much.

I would put a $100 timex against a $10,000 Rolex any day of the week for their function - TIME KEEPING. I would put a $70 XYZ knife (Gerber, Spyderco, etc.) up against any $300 knife for identical uses and they'll last the same amount of time. AND, even if the $70 fails to last as long, the $300 knife IS NOT going to last 4 times as long... So the economical argument is that you could buy 4 $70 knives for the price of 1 $300 knife...

At the end of the day, you're largely paying for art, hand made, craftsmanship, status, etc.

It's not a judgement, but that's not for ME at this point. But there are some things I pay extra for for quality. For knives, the sweet spot is about $70.
 
I didn't claim you were wrong in anything you said, I just thought the mode in which you delivered it was arrogant and self righteous. You seem to think a lot of yourself.
And I am observing that you subtely attempted to call me a solipsist, which I suppose is correct, because it is perfectly true that I am unable to prove the existence of anything but my own consciousness, I think therefore I am.
 
While I have not paid over $60.00 for a knife. I will say some of the ones I purchased are worth way more than this today.
My 1970's Gerber MK II http://thegerberknives.com/mark.html
Is one example. I paid $20.00 for it in 1977 without a sheath.
We work hard for our money and getting a quality product which will apreciate and be useful at the same time is a win - win.
I hope my investment in American made products will pay dividens in the future and now by stimulating AMERICAN JOBS.
 
I would put a $70 XYZ knife (Gerber, Spyderco, etc.) up against any $300 knife for identical uses and they'll last the same amount of time. AND, even if the $70 fails to last as long, the $300 knife IS NOT going to last 4 times as long... So the economical argument is that you could buy 4 $70 knives for the price of 1 $300 knife...

For a folding ,everyday, "normal person's" use I would tend to agree. Heck my daily carry folder is a $20 SAK.

But, that doesn't mean I can't appreciate and understand the value and PERFORMANCE of a Sebenza or a Davidson.Their fit, finish,materials,and yes long term performance potential, blow my little SAK away. (I will own a small Sebenza before I pass on)

Where I draw the line at "cost vs value" are my personal hobbies. All of which include the great outdoors.

As mentioned before in this thread my baby is a Fallkniven F1. This does not mean I have not owned knives costing more, in fact I have. The F1 just fits my hands, and uses better.

My F1 has suffered my abuses for at least three years now. That equals about $40 per year (and it is still ticking mind you). There is no way a $60 mystery Chinese steel knife would last in my hands for a solid year. Sorry, I do tend to take shortcuts in the woods. An axe, saw, hammer, pry-bar,screwdriver set, ..etc tend to add quite a bit of weight to the pack. So I make do with what I have on hand or tools can create in the woods.

My $118 investment three years ago has paid me back already.
 
Reality & Stuff

Tim, JV works with blades daily.

He has [post=5884349]shared some of his expertise[/post] with us.

Perhaps he can be forgiven for a certain reluctance to accept statements that run contrary to his actual experience in the field.


And JV? A gentle hand is seldom a waste of effort.


'Tis the High Road after all.

 
12gaugeTim,

Thank you for so eloquently confirming my observation. And I was by no means trying to be subtle.

Tell me, Tim, which one is the self righteous and arrogant one; the one who claims that the story ends at 50-80 bucks (leadcounsel), or the one who claims to know that the rabbit hole is just a bit deeper - and more complex - than that?

Furthermore, you believe in the possibility that the entire universe might be the creation of your YOUR own mind... but I am the arrogant one?

Rest assured, you are not the All.

ArfinGreebly,

I really don't see why I should be gentle when people trapped in a world of illusion and with absolutely no experience claim to be final arbiters of things and dismiss professionals (and no, I am not necessarily talking about myself) with true Knowledge, gained through experience, as fools. Tell me, how many custom blade makers would react "gently" faced with such blatant arrogance? Exactly. That is because they Know and they have pride and a spark in their soul. By the way, that is one reason I like the "custom" scene.

Agreed, sometimes gentleness is what is needed, but not this time. And let's remember, the High Road is not for the timid :D
 
"John, I think the real answer is Nothing."

I think you're wrong. Before I bought the Sebenza I used a $50 Beretta folder for years, and still have it, and it isn't half the knife the Sebenza is in day to day use.

Here's my question for you. Do you have experience with a wide range of knives or is your answer simply a matter of "I think"?
 
"I really don't see why I should be gentle when people trapped in a world of illusion and with absolutely no experience claim to be final arbiters of things and dismiss professionals (and no, I am not necessarily talking about myself) with true Knowledge, gained through experience, as fools. Tell me, how many custom blade makers would react "gently" faced with such blatant arrogance? Exactly. That is because they Know and they have pride and a spark in their soul. "
:banghead:

yessir! or as the Book puts it; " Don't throw your pearls before swine, lest they turn and chomp on U"
:neener:
 
I will admit a 500 dollar knife is (nicer) than one that cost under 100. I will also admit it is nicer to won, and carries a certain almost un-explainable specialness that cheaper knives do not. I will also venture that until one owns such a knife, he will not understand or MAY not understand. However, as said, MOST of us for daily use will never see a working difference in a sub hundred dollar knife, and a 500 dollar handmade knife other then said prestige. I can say that 80% of the non operators I know who carry a knife pull it out once a week unlike me who has mine out ten times a day. I can tell the difference, and sometimes even carry a slipjoint worth 300 or more. But most never will need a high dollar knife nor will they ever buy one.
 
No one is saying that inexpensive knives are no good. I own plenty of knives below the $60 price point that serve me well. But to pretend that nothing better exists is foolishness.

I don't remember who it was that first mentioned the $60 cutoff, but that is an arbitrary number. Do you expect it to apply to all knives? Do you expect knives made by skilled workers in developed countries to cost the same as ones made by slave labor? What about knives made of premium steel compared to ones with unknown pot metal blades? Do you think a hand forged knife made one at a time should cost the same as one that is cranked out in the thousands by machine?

Not to mention that there is a myriad of designs when it comes to knives.

These two are knives.
users2.jpg


So is this.
him43.jpg


To expect them to all cost the same is unrealistic.

leadcounsel mentioned the principle of diminishing returns. That's really what is at issue here. For some a knife is nothing more than a tool, akin to a wrench, and all they want is something that cuts. The Gerber does the job just fine. But some people want better and they are willing to pay for it. They want a blade that cuts more efficiently and holds its edge longer. They may want a knife with a stronger lock. Sometimes they may even want one that's prettier. All valid reasons. In the end each buyer has to decide what's worth spending his money on. Good thing that knives, like guns, have something for everyone, of every budget.
 
Baseball

The value of manufactured items can, to a degree, be compared with the amounts paid to baseball players whose batting averages are only a few hundredths different.

Mashin' Maxwell might have a batting average of .315, and his teammate, Beltin' Bobby might have an average of .340, and in all other respects they are equal: same 50 yard and 100 yard sprint times, same jumping height, same ability to catch grounders and flies, and so on. Yet Bobby is paid substantially more for what is really only a minor fractional improvement in hitting.

Bobby may just have a natural talent, or he may spend twice as much time in the batting cage as Maxwell.


In manufacturing you set up your production line and processes to achieve the best consistent quality to meet or beat a certain cost point. Beyond that level of quality, more time is required, more personal attention is needed, and it may be that some of the materials involved don't submit well to automation. You may only achieve a 10% improvement, but your production cost may have increased 50% for that piece.

Me, I'm mostly happy with what can be achieved in a production setting. I tend to take a little more time at the point of purchase to study three or four or five examples of a given knife before I select the one that's going home with me. I check things like smoothness of action, degree of lock engagement, blade centering, blade play, seams between the scales and bolsters, scales and rivets (or screws), symmetry of grind, evenness of edge, and stuff like that.

I know that in a mass produced environment, the line staff don't have the time to stop and spend minutes with each piece, so I spend that time myself at the knife counter, making sure I get the best (in my eyes) combination of factors from the available selection. If I'm ordering a custom piece, I don't expect to have to perform QA for the maker. I've paid him to do that. If I order a customized version of a production piece, I expect that the extra money I'm spending will be reflected in the finished product. I shouldn't find ledges, gaps, off-centering, play, stickiness, or blemishes. I'm paying for the craftsman with his hands on the work to take care of all that.


The customized piece may only be "a few percentage points" better than a piece right off the line, but that last few points can mean more "extra" time on a single knife than the whole process takes for several of the mass produced versions of the same item.


Choose the level of quality that suits you and then, knowing what the extra effort will be, spend your money accordingly.

 
Well, since everybody else is weighing in ...

I grew up in a knife shop. I've sold a few knives for my Dad, and a few of my own. I put together a knife or two a year still, just for my own entertainment and use.

I hardly ever bother to sell 'em, though, because the honest truth is that most people are cheapskates who don't want to pay what the materials are worth, let alone for the time and expertise a craftsman puts into something. I've given a couple to friends that were deploying, but I'm not giving them away to someone who just doesn't want to pay for them.

You see it in lots of things. Just surf the hobby boards for a day or two, and you'll see questions like this all the time: What's the cheapest xyz item I can use for abc task?

It's partly budget, and we all understand that, but it is also ludicrous to think that the cheapest thing out there that will do the job compares favorably with the product of purpose-built, top-end craftsmanship.

"Adequate" does not equate to "awesome".

I recently had an interesting experience that illustrates. I was at the shooting range with a friend. I had my adequate Bushnell spotting scope. Its job is to tell me where the bullet holes are on the target, and to help find deer. I picked up my friend's Leupold Gold Ring binoculars, which have a much lower magnification ratio than the spotting scope. Those binoculars are unreal. The optical clarity is just amazing to a guy who's never used anything of that quality.

Is it quantifiable? Can I measure the difference between them? I don't know, but I do know that when my friend offered me the use of those binoculars for my upcoming Coues hunt, I grabbed them and stuck them in my truck before he could change his mind. I may not even pack my spotting scope. It does pull things in closer than the binos, so maybe they will serve different purposes.

Riflescopes. People are always trying to cheap out on their optics. I understand. We all do. Quality is expensive, and budgets are usually hard to find flex room in. But the difference between a $50 scope and a $150 scope is huge. I have a Bushnell that came in a package with a rifle, and a Nikon Prostaff. The Bushnell is adequate - it does what it is designed to do, but ... the Nikon is demonstrably more clear, less tiring to sit behind, and adjusts more precisely. If you have the Bushnell zeroed, it will enable you to hit your target (unless you switch between magnification levels - shifting impact points), but you will have an easier time using the Nikon. Whether the difference between a $150 scope and a $1000 scope is as huge remains to be seen. I have used a Zeiss one time, and it was honestly a very impressive scope, but I did not have a less expensive scope with me to compare it to.

Purchasers of knives can fall into the same trap of price trumping quality, but there are caveats: you can get an adequate, sharp piece of steel that will cut for not much money. A typical SAK doesn't cost a lot, and will have highly polished blades that center in the channel, don't rub each other, and snap open and closed with authority. There is no reason to buy cheap junk when such things exist in the world - quality, not price, is the measure. Where you go from there depends on your usage level and your budget.

A $300 knife may be a tremendous cutter, an enduring and comforting companion, or an investment.

A bladesmith tests his blades, frequently to destruction. When he says "My knives can do ..." whatever he says, he's saying because he's done it. I have taken one of my father's blades on deployment, on training exercises, hunting, and every place imaginable. It has pried, chopped, cut, sliced, and, not to be too ugly about it, intimidated dangerous locals. *cue Crocodile Dundee: now that's a knife!

That is a $300 knife. And, considering where it's been and what it's done, it would have been cheap, at twice the price.
 
Good points, 455.
Being great at Xbox, fantasy football, or zinging people on message boards doesn't leave a lot of time for developing real skills that help you relate to craftspeople.
Consumers just look for the best blister pack deal.

If you have to convince a guy your labor and skillset have value, you're selling to the wrong guy.
 
I agree, but a lot of the major manufacturers that sell at such high prices still use mass manufacturing processes like the cheaper ones. The only difference is the people putting the pieces together spend maybe an extra 5-10min per knife. Does it make a better knife? Sure. Does it justify the cost increases when considering the volume? Not in my opinion (unless we're talking long blades like that kukri above). Obviously there'll be almost no time spent at all on a $30 plastic package folder. The $70-$130 range like mentioned before seems to be the sweet spot where enought time is spent to create a solid long lasting knife without dumping a ton of money on flash, packaging and brand names.

However, if we're talking bladesmiths that spend hours or days choosing, making and assembling/fitting each piece of a custom knife. I agree completely with the prices, bu depending on the knife, I doubt it'd be my daily beater.
 
You can have a soul knife ! And even Shaft would dig it ! No I meant Soul Knife in the Japanese Tradition! Or the Native American Tradition or the Jim Friggin Bowie Tradition!
 
I agree completely with the prices, bu depending on the knife, I doubt it'd be my daily beater.

Interesting that we will carry a gun that costs more, often much more, than a custom knife, and we chalk up holster wear and whatnot to daily usage. We also don't worry too much about losing it or breaking it.
But, when it comes to knives we have a hard time breaking the $300 mark for something so much more utilitarian. I know I don't use my gun to peel apples or field dress animals, whittle, or make shelter.
I'm just saying.
 
Interesting that we will carry a gun that costs more, often much more, than a custom knife, and we chalk up holster wear and whatnot to daily usage. We also don't worry too much about losing it or breaking it.
But, when it comes to knives we have a hard time breaking the $300 mark for something so much more utilitarian. I know I don't use my gun to peel apples or field dress animals, whittle, or make shelter.
I'm just saying.

I'm confused, you're not worried about breaking or losing your gun?

Although my guns might be as much or more expensive they dont represent the high dollar custom hand made from scratch knives that I was talking about. Eventually I plan on buying a Schofield. Now that would fit in that category and would receive much better treatment than my current guns (not to imply I abuse them or anything).

I agree it's much more utilitarian, but the device itself is much more simple than a pistol or revolver. Those things do require tighter tolerances than most knives to function properly. Which I feel justifies the higher price eventhough its usage could never hold a candle to my EDC knife. Usually, you can find a $100 knife that has a locking system/hinge that functions just as well as one 3-4 times that price.
 
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Interesting that we will carry a gun that costs more, often much more, than a custom knife, and we chalk up holster wear and whatnot to daily usage. We also don't worry too much about losing it or breaking it.
But, when it comes to knives we have a hard time breaking the $300 mark for something so much more utilitarian. I know I don't use my gun to peel apples or field dress animals, whittle, or make shelter.
I'm just saying.

The problem is that you have mistaken absolute cost for relative cost.

$300 is affordable for a gun. If you could get a Glock for $20, it would seem a little silly to spend $300 on a pistol.

The thing is, a $300 knife is an optional luxury item. Yeah, more money gets you better quality, but diminishing returns stack up FAST. Most people are perfectly fine not even carrying a knife at all. A lot of people are happy with sub $10 box cutters for general purpose knives. A humble $12 Opinel performs most EDC tasks admirably. So does a $20 SAK. $20 also begins to get you into the area of decent quality import knives.

Is a $300 knife better than an Opinel? Sure. Is it 33X times better? I don't know about that.
 
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