wheelgunslinger
Member
Nope. But, it's a caveat emptor world.
I think we can both agree that the cheapest is usually just that.
The rest is a discussion about whether to buy a Ford or a Chevy.
Why would I spend $300 on just a knife?
- Thread starter alaskanativeson
- Start date
- Status
I think we can both agree that the cheapest is usually just that.
The rest is a discussion about whether to buy a Ford or a Chevy.
EvilGenius
Member
Yup.
wheelgunslinger
Member
Yay! XD
EvilGenius
Member
I do agree.
But I'd also like to point out that a Mercedes/Aston Martin/Audi/etc. all have nice things and are very expensive, but at the end of the day, don't really do anything a ford/Chevy can't in regards to driving.
Except parallel park.
JTW Jr.
Member
Yes there are some , and there are some who perceive ( some say deceive) to have some super secret squirrel HT method.
Very few makers make all the parts of their knives , do they cut down the tree and stabilized their own handle material ?
There are a select FEW that do , but they all start with raw steel made by someone else , either in bar , rod or other form...so they are not custom either by your reasoning.
Getting the most of a steel is one thing , being able to get the knowledge to make every different type of steel a knifemaker works with to be the best it can be takes many many years ! I will leave that up to someone who has the ability to nail those temps each time , control that heat cycle , and have the means to do the cryo treatment , this lets me focus on making knives.
I don't call my knives customs or semi-customs , to me they are knives made by me. I don't do my own HT , but I do cut my blades from bar stock , grind my own blades , cut out my own scales materials and make my own sheaths , leather and kydex.
Many knifemakers sell a fixed blade without a sheath , does is make it no longer custom if they outsource the sheath ?
Compare a Chevy to an Aston Martin.....rofl , now that is funny.
If you haven't driven one , you can't compare how they drive , and they do drive different... especially when you drop the hammer and point it into a corner....( and yes I have driven a DB7 ).
Valkman
Member
Bos was good enough for Bob Loveless, so he was good enough for me.
JTW Jr.
Member
You got that right...Bob and Paul go way back to the beginning...
Gordon
Member
I have a Valkman CPM 154 fighter heat treated by Bos (when he wuz still around) and it is under my mattress on a gunbelt with a CZPO-1 with a light attached. My $300 first line defense and about the onliest Stainless steel knife . I got it on a smokin THR $225 deal but it certainly IS a $300 IMHO! I chopped fruit tree limbs and cactus around the house with it and cut up chickens and other meat bar B queing, something I think stainless excells at. I think Bos wuz an excellent choice for this steel. All my other custom knives are made out of carbon steel that the masters who created them differentially heat treated to perfection. There is something about a 62-63 Rockwell C edge with a 50-55 spine that cannot be matched ! Materials part before their edge and you WILL NOT break the blade no matter what you have to do.. period. Plus they have "soul" , they want to do their job and work with your hands and body in a harmonious manner. I do have a few specialty knives that don't cost more than $100 stashed at work stations, but going out 'armed' I'll take an expensive custom to get the EDGE!
I have Opis and I have knives that cost $300+.
To me, each has their "value".
It is a true fact that beyond a point the cost of a knife produces diminishing returns on practical use improvement, but that's been the case with any tool through time. 80% of the cost is in getting the last 20% improvement in performance. Start stacking these out to wring out the last point or two and it gets pricey, BUT that alone isn't the only issue when you get into expensive items.
As pointed out by some already the value in that additional cost is in the ornamental materials, the ergonomics and the sheer artistry of a knife. Push performance in a beautiful package and you get into expensive territory quickly. Toss in the difficulty of the methods (I have a large sword blade made by Louis Mills who smelted the ore to make the steel to forge be billet to forge the blade who quenched and polished the blade. Another artist made the tsuba and other fittings from a Civil War anchor chain and built the sword out. Nothing was mass produced except the cord wrapping the grip. Other makers of swords have commented it was the most perfect tachi blade they'd ever handled. In short, a unique work of blade art.).
Do I value my Opinels and Moras? Sure I do. Do I value a hand forged ivory handled bowie with filework painstakingly worked into the pattern of the knife. Of course.
To me, each has their "value".
It is a true fact that beyond a point the cost of a knife produces diminishing returns on practical use improvement, but that's been the case with any tool through time. 80% of the cost is in getting the last 20% improvement in performance. Start stacking these out to wring out the last point or two and it gets pricey, BUT that alone isn't the only issue when you get into expensive items.
As pointed out by some already the value in that additional cost is in the ornamental materials, the ergonomics and the sheer artistry of a knife. Push performance in a beautiful package and you get into expensive territory quickly. Toss in the difficulty of the methods (I have a large sword blade made by Louis Mills who smelted the ore to make the steel to forge be billet to forge the blade who quenched and polished the blade. Another artist made the tsuba and other fittings from a Civil War anchor chain and built the sword out. Nothing was mass produced except the cord wrapping the grip. Other makers of swords have commented it was the most perfect tachi blade they'd ever handled. In short, a unique work of blade art.).
Do I value my Opinels and Moras? Sure I do. Do I value a hand forged ivory handled bowie with filework painstakingly worked into the pattern of the knife. Of course.
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JVoutilainen
Member
JTW Jr.,
The problem is that you do not really read what I am writing. No, I don't expect the maker to "cut down the tree" for the handle material. Similarly I don't expect the maker to actually produce the steel he uses. Why is that? Notice that I have tried, once or twice, explain what I consider to be the point when a knife is made. I have even explained how that represents, for me, the 80%. Apparently this is not making it clear enough? Why is that? Well, we return to the topic of people refusing to see obvious things because of ego-attachement to an ideology, or certain world view.
Anyone, with relatively little practice, can make an object that looks kinda like a knife, even a handsome knife - if they don't have to heat treat. That is the 20%. Say what you wish, but the FACT remains that heat treatment by Bos means a heat treatment by BOS, the company, and that IS mass production. That would make your "custom" knife 20% custom... in my book. If you are happy with that, again, fine by me. Would I recommend a knife like that for someone who wants custom? No.
Nice. Now you are implying that people who have the means to do their own heat treatment have to be charlatans. Great attitude.
I really should concentrate more on this comment, because it brings out an older topic... but I won't.
No, I'm not trying to be subtle this time, either.
So, if I don't react when one big name gets thrown to the table, maybe another one will turn me around. Doesn't work that way... because that has nothing to do with the issue - something you would understand if you just looked beyond your (hurt) ego, to what I'm actually saying.
Yeah, it is apparent that I would not be one of your customers. Does that mean I consider your knives useless - without ever even having handled one? No, absolutely not. Do I consider your knives "custom"-knives? No, because they are, clearly, not. Not for me, that is.
EvilGenius sez:
Yeeaaaahhhh... for sure. What ever helps you get through days without one.
Gordon,
Now, that is what I am talking about.
The problem is that you do not really read what I am writing. No, I don't expect the maker to "cut down the tree" for the handle material. Similarly I don't expect the maker to actually produce the steel he uses. Why is that? Notice that I have tried, once or twice, explain what I consider to be the point when a knife is made. I have even explained how that represents, for me, the 80%. Apparently this is not making it clear enough? Why is that? Well, we return to the topic of people refusing to see obvious things because of ego-attachement to an ideology, or certain world view.
Anyone, with relatively little practice, can make an object that looks kinda like a knife, even a handsome knife - if they don't have to heat treat. That is the 20%. Say what you wish, but the FACT remains that heat treatment by Bos means a heat treatment by BOS, the company, and that IS mass production. That would make your "custom" knife 20% custom... in my book. If you are happy with that, again, fine by me. Would I recommend a knife like that for someone who wants custom? No.
Nice. Now you are implying that people who have the means to do their own heat treatment have to be charlatans. Great attitude.
I really should concentrate more on this comment, because it brings out an older topic... but I won't.
No, I'm not trying to be subtle this time, either.
So, if I don't react when one big name gets thrown to the table, maybe another one will turn me around. Doesn't work that way... because that has nothing to do with the issue - something you would understand if you just looked beyond your (hurt) ego, to what I'm actually saying.
Yeah, it is apparent that I would not be one of your customers. Does that mean I consider your knives useless - without ever even having handled one? No, absolutely not. Do I consider your knives "custom"-knives? No, because they are, clearly, not. Not for me, that is.
EvilGenius sez:
Yeeaaaahhhh... for sure. What ever helps you get through days without one.
Gordon,
Now, that is what I am talking about.
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JVoutilainen
Member
hso,
Nothing better than having masters collaborate on a project - usually leads to the creation of mind blowing stuff. Japanese lacquerware being one good example.
Nothing better than having masters collaborate on a project - usually leads to the creation of mind blowing stuff. Japanese lacquerware being one good example.
Strykervet
member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2010
- Messages
- 1,610
Because you found a brand new Randall at half price!
A super quality knife like that would be nice, but I have to live with the K-Bar and Buck I have, and they don't get out often as it is. I use a cheap, small Gerber Applegate/Fairbairn folder --I'm afraid to use anything more expensive for fear of losing it.
Finally, knives are made differently from different metals for different uses. Depending on the use, or say you are a martial arts afficianado, you may want their $600 tanto as opposed to flea market garbage, and the soldier may want a tougher field knife that won't break when used as a pry bar. No different than firearms really --no gun nut worth his salt totes a Hi-Point, just like no knife nut totes a convenience store special.
A super quality knife like that would be nice, but I have to live with the K-Bar and Buck I have, and they don't get out often as it is. I use a cheap, small Gerber Applegate/Fairbairn folder --I'm afraid to use anything more expensive for fear of losing it.
Finally, knives are made differently from different metals for different uses. Depending on the use, or say you are a martial arts afficianado, you may want their $600 tanto as opposed to flea market garbage, and the soldier may want a tougher field knife that won't break when used as a pry bar. No different than firearms really --no gun nut worth his salt totes a Hi-Point, just like no knife nut totes a convenience store special.
22-rimfire
Member
So what was the question again?
$300 tends to be the upper-middle to upper end of factory knives. Unfortunately, at $300 for custom knives, you are near the lower end.
After handling my brother in law's Randalls around 1990, I wanted a Randall. I had to have a Randall. It is not even a custom; commonly said to be semi-custom (but still a factory blade). Got the Randall and being the kind of person I am, I acquired a few more Randalls. In those days, many dealers at Gun Shows had a few Randall's for sale at generally factory pricing. Now you pay a premium for the most part to have it "now".
Randall knives opened my eyes up to other blades and I used Randall pricing as my compare point. I have moved on to other makers and knives since then, but I still really love to fondle my Randalls.
I have found that I am hesitant to use a $300+ knife when I have $100 knives that cut for the most part just as well. It is as HSO said, there is a point of diminishing returns with knives, guns, and any tools you use or simply "like". There is a pride of ownership involved with just having good tools.
I use Bob Dozier's custom knives. I really like them and the price point is affordable for a very good knife. I'd like to use some of my other ones, but you get to the point of "why bother?" with an knife accumulation. The same can be said about firearms. I have new guns I have purchased to shoot and have only fired them a couple of times. It is hard to alter one's path when you are comfortable with what you have already and have confidence with. But that does not stop me from looking at the new this or that and wanting one.
$300 tends to be the upper-middle to upper end of factory knives. Unfortunately, at $300 for custom knives, you are near the lower end.
After handling my brother in law's Randalls around 1990, I wanted a Randall. I had to have a Randall. It is not even a custom; commonly said to be semi-custom (but still a factory blade). Got the Randall and being the kind of person I am, I acquired a few more Randalls. In those days, many dealers at Gun Shows had a few Randall's for sale at generally factory pricing. Now you pay a premium for the most part to have it "now".
Randall knives opened my eyes up to other blades and I used Randall pricing as my compare point. I have moved on to other makers and knives since then, but I still really love to fondle my Randalls.
I have found that I am hesitant to use a $300+ knife when I have $100 knives that cut for the most part just as well. It is as HSO said, there is a point of diminishing returns with knives, guns, and any tools you use or simply "like". There is a pride of ownership involved with just having good tools.
I use Bob Dozier's custom knives. I really like them and the price point is affordable for a very good knife. I'd like to use some of my other ones, but you get to the point of "why bother?" with an knife accumulation. The same can be said about firearms. I have new guns I have purchased to shoot and have only fired them a couple of times. It is hard to alter one's path when you are comfortable with what you have already and have confidence with. But that does not stop me from looking at the new this or that and wanting one.
JTW Jr.
Member
last comment to you on this...
HT is just a part of the process , other things like design , blade thickness , grind hind , edge thickness , etc all come into play. What you perceive as being a huge part is actually not the 80% that you "claim". You are certainly in a minority with your view on what makes a knife not be a custom.
There are plenty who think you can just take high carbon to non-mag and quench it in any old oil and that is fine , they would be wrong , and many have proven that.
A HT expert like Paul ( who has now retired ) has 42 years of experience with HT on a huge range of steels , to expect a knife maker to be able to match that AND make knives is a huge learning curve. Many do not start out doing their own HT , but once they get the knife making part down to where it is second nature, they then take on the learning curve of proper HT.
There is a huge difference between " heat treat " and proper heat treat. If you don't RC your blades , how will you know your HT worked ?
Sure there are makers who have the whole setup , do their own HT , RC test each blade , either stock removal or forgers , but they are not in the price range of $300
Just curious as to how many knives you have made, since you have so much insight.
Or is just theory you speak from , in theory there is no difference , where in application , there is.
HT is just a part of the process , other things like design , blade thickness , grind hind , edge thickness , etc all come into play. What you perceive as being a huge part is actually not the 80% that you "claim". You are certainly in a minority with your view on what makes a knife not be a custom.
There are plenty who think you can just take high carbon to non-mag and quench it in any old oil and that is fine , they would be wrong , and many have proven that.
A HT expert like Paul ( who has now retired ) has 42 years of experience with HT on a huge range of steels , to expect a knife maker to be able to match that AND make knives is a huge learning curve. Many do not start out doing their own HT , but once they get the knife making part down to where it is second nature, they then take on the learning curve of proper HT.
There is a huge difference between " heat treat " and proper heat treat. If you don't RC your blades , how will you know your HT worked ?
Sure there are makers who have the whole setup , do their own HT , RC test each blade , either stock removal or forgers , but they are not in the price range of $300
by your reasoning it would make it 80% custom , but again I don't consider what I make custom since I don't take orders , I make what I want , it's a hobby for me , not a way to earn a living.
Just curious as to how many knives you have made, since you have so much insight.
Or is just theory you speak from , in theory there is no difference , where in application , there is.
Gordon
Member
"but they are not in the price range of $300 "
BINGO!
BINGO!
JVoutilainen
Member
JTW Jr.,
Ditto, because I can see this is really going nowhere.
How many times do I have to say that it (HT 80%) is the key, to me, personally, before you can take that in.
And about heat treat not being the 80%. Take one of your non heat treated (steel) knives and start whittling. Then tell me what you've accomplished. Heat treating a blade does not necessarily take 80% of your time, when you make a knife, but that is the moment which defines the true value of the product. For me, note, for me, that IS the 80%.
As I have already said - and I'm getting REALLY tired of parroting the same thing all over again - when you send your knives to Bos, you are sending them to BOS, the company, not the man himself. More obvious now when he is retired. That makes your "custom" HT process mass production. Apparently it is impossible for you to make that distinction. Furthermore, I specifically said that were I to order a knife made by Bos, and heat treated by Bos, personally (and individually, not part of a batch), I would have no issue. Yes, I realise that is not possible, but hypothetically speaking.
Would you believe that that is not really news for me.
You would be wrong on that. You should have said that you do not have that option in the States. That would probably be accurate. How much does your generalization leave out of the equation... well, not that much, just the rest of the planet.
Hah, you are reaching for new lows. No way to break through the conditioning? Right?
You see it does not take experience as a knife maker to know about the world of knives. Also, it does not take experience as a knife maker to be able to point out the FACT that BOS heat treatment is not individual (custom) service, but mass production. And I would not have to be a knife maker to know, as a FACT, that Buck is most definitely not the leading authority of metallurgy in the world.
As it happens though, I have been making knives, or delving into the world in general, for about five or six years now. Not commercially, or full time. I have also worked with highly regarded finnish master blade smiths . In fact, one of them (winner of the masters series in Fiskars knife construction competition, and multiple other gold medals) has been my teacher in the field. As I have said, I am a woodworking professional, because it is very difficult to make a living out of knives in country so small, and with so many brilliant knife (puukko) makers. That said, I find the idea tempting, still.
Here is one I made, one that I have posted here before, just to give you an example. The model is inspired by Kokemäen-, and Rautalammin-puukko. That is why the shoulders of the blade are visible. Rautalammis influence can be seen in the "mirror", or the part that contains the blade, of the sheath.
Not the best possible picture, but you get the idea.
It is made out of Wr 1.2210, which is a high carbon steel with 0.7Cr and 0.1V. That is about the toughest material I am willing to tackle with my limited experience. It has been differentially hardened, and after multiple tempers it is at about HRC 61-62. You could go for HRC 63 with "silver steel", but, personally I prefer a blade that is not that hard. Being confident and fast at sharpening I don't need blades that have exceptionally long edge retention. Although it must be said that this one has one, regardless.
Here is a blade I made, not recently, but still. Also posted here before. You can see from the picture that I forge my blades. Grind is hollow on this one, and I make it freehand. I don't use jigs at any stage, because that would make it, in my book, less of a hand made knife than I prefer.
Once I get onto calmer waters with my new (or old, to be more accurate) house I will have, hopefully, more time to make knives. I promise to post the results.
Ditto, because I can see this is really going nowhere.
How many times do I have to say that it (HT 80%) is the key, to me, personally, before you can take that in.
And about heat treat not being the 80%. Take one of your non heat treated (steel) knives and start whittling. Then tell me what you've accomplished. Heat treating a blade does not necessarily take 80% of your time, when you make a knife, but that is the moment which defines the true value of the product. For me, note, for me, that IS the 80%.
As I have already said - and I'm getting REALLY tired of parroting the same thing all over again - when you send your knives to Bos, you are sending them to BOS, the company, not the man himself. More obvious now when he is retired. That makes your "custom" HT process mass production. Apparently it is impossible for you to make that distinction. Furthermore, I specifically said that were I to order a knife made by Bos, and heat treated by Bos, personally (and individually, not part of a batch), I would have no issue. Yes, I realise that is not possible, but hypothetically speaking.
Would you believe that that is not really news for me.
You would be wrong on that. You should have said that you do not have that option in the States. That would probably be accurate. How much does your generalization leave out of the equation... well, not that much, just the rest of the planet.
Hah, you are reaching for new lows. No way to break through the conditioning? Right?
You see it does not take experience as a knife maker to know about the world of knives. Also, it does not take experience as a knife maker to be able to point out the FACT that BOS heat treatment is not individual (custom) service, but mass production. And I would not have to be a knife maker to know, as a FACT, that Buck is most definitely not the leading authority of metallurgy in the world.
As it happens though, I have been making knives, or delving into the world in general, for about five or six years now. Not commercially, or full time. I have also worked with highly regarded finnish master blade smiths . In fact, one of them (winner of the masters series in Fiskars knife construction competition, and multiple other gold medals) has been my teacher in the field. As I have said, I am a woodworking professional, because it is very difficult to make a living out of knives in country so small, and with so many brilliant knife (puukko) makers. That said, I find the idea tempting, still.
Here is one I made, one that I have posted here before, just to give you an example. The model is inspired by Kokemäen-, and Rautalammin-puukko. That is why the shoulders of the blade are visible. Rautalammis influence can be seen in the "mirror", or the part that contains the blade, of the sheath.
Not the best possible picture, but you get the idea.
It is made out of Wr 1.2210, which is a high carbon steel with 0.7Cr and 0.1V. That is about the toughest material I am willing to tackle with my limited experience. It has been differentially hardened, and after multiple tempers it is at about HRC 61-62. You could go for HRC 63 with "silver steel", but, personally I prefer a blade that is not that hard. Being confident and fast at sharpening I don't need blades that have exceptionally long edge retention. Although it must be said that this one has one, regardless.
Here is a blade I made, not recently, but still. Also posted here before. You can see from the picture that I forge my blades. Grind is hollow on this one, and I make it freehand. I don't use jigs at any stage, because that would make it, in my book, less of a hand made knife than I prefer.
Once I get onto calmer waters with my new (or old, to be more accurate) house I will have, hopefully, more time to make knives. I promise to post the results.
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JVoutilainen,
Your perspective is that of the "sole authorship" collector. Short of making the steel and machining the fasteners and trimming a chunk of shin-bone off their own leg, sole authorship makers purchase all the basic materials and produce a finished knife from them. Some sole authorship collectors want to see, but don't insist on, a good sheath from the knife maker, but that's asking a bit much for someone to produce an attractive useful knife AND be able to crank out an attractive useful sheath. The sole authorship collector would like the to see the maker produce the fasteners and the steel, but that's just the ideal.
I've helped make steel in the traditional Japanese method and carry a little piece of it around with me as a reminder of the fun in making it.
Whether a maker does everything themselves or they collaborate with others (steel makers, fastener makers, heat treaters, sheath makers) they're making something unique and beautiful that not everyone will appreciate.
Your perspective is that of the "sole authorship" collector. Short of making the steel and machining the fasteners and trimming a chunk of shin-bone off their own leg, sole authorship makers purchase all the basic materials and produce a finished knife from them. Some sole authorship collectors want to see, but don't insist on, a good sheath from the knife maker, but that's asking a bit much for someone to produce an attractive useful knife AND be able to crank out an attractive useful sheath. The sole authorship collector would like the to see the maker produce the fasteners and the steel, but that's just the ideal.
I've helped make steel in the traditional Japanese method and carry a little piece of it around with me as a reminder of the fun in making it.
Whether a maker does everything themselves or they collaborate with others (steel makers, fastener makers, heat treaters, sheath makers) they're making something unique and beautiful that not everyone will appreciate.
JVoutilainen
Member
hso,
Well, yes and no. That is why I gave the japanese lacquerware example... and you probably know that they are often made by multiple artists in collaboration. That is an art form I appreciate immensely.
Nice!
Making steel out of "järvirauta", or lake iron, with traditional methods is actually something I dream about doing. Also, I have been saving suitable magnets so that I can go "fishing" for iron sand for a tatara-smelt. There is a guy in Funland (Hynynen), whos progress in steel making I have been following - when ever he posts his valuable findings on the net (unfortunately I don't have the honour of knowing the guy personally). I really really admire his work.
Not so long ago I tried to get a neighbor, who is a brilliant man, to join in a smelting project, but, as I described the process to him, I noticed his eyes glaze over and sensed that he thought " this poor fella is out of his mind"
Well, yes and no. That is why I gave the japanese lacquerware example... and you probably know that they are often made by multiple artists in collaboration. That is an art form I appreciate immensely.
Nice!
Making steel out of "järvirauta", or lake iron, with traditional methods is actually something I dream about doing. Also, I have been saving suitable magnets so that I can go "fishing" for iron sand for a tatara-smelt. There is a guy in Funland (Hynynen), whos progress in steel making I have been following - when ever he posts his valuable findings on the net (unfortunately I don't have the honour of knowing the guy personally). I really really admire his work.
Not so long ago I tried to get a neighbor, who is a brilliant man, to join in a smelting project, but, as I described the process to him, I noticed his eyes glaze over and sensed that he thought " this poor fella is out of his mind"
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Reproduction & Repeatability
One of the distinguishing characteristics of humanity is the ability to learn method and process from those who have perfected it and to devise and apply repeatable methodology to such a process.
Manufacturing, in the sense of mass production, is such a process.
While it can be tempting to associate "manufactured" with "second rate" in quality, it should also be noted that the "starving artist" metaphor of production lacks viability: it serves few and often rewards none.
If a business that produces essentially a commodity product -- tools -- is to survive long enough to feed its families, at some point it must automate what can be automated, or be condemned to serve a demographic which may appreciate them mightily but won't keep them fed, absent a wealthy benefactor.
Hoyt Buck ran an actual forge and machine shop. He made knives by hand. He didn't produce them on a large scale because, well, he made them by hand. His son, Al Buck learned from his father, in the forge and machine shop, and took the next step, introducing repeatable processes.
While that was going on, Paul Bos -- still a teenager -- was learning heat treat from a blacksmith who specialized in heat treatment. It was a process that used to be called "apprenticeship" back when people still knew what that was.
Paul met the Buck family through Frank Buck, a racing buddy, who would be in his sixties today had he lived. Paul's business dovetailed nicely with Buck's knifemaking operation, and they forged a partnership that lasted for decades. He finally sold his business to Buck in 2001, but stayed with them, retiring only recently.
The knifemakers with whom he worked were guys he'd served for 20 years and more -- some as long as 30 -- and the fellows who took over the operation had themselves gone through this arcane and lost "apprenticeship" ritual.
There are few people in the world, anywhere, that have achieved Paul's mastery of heat treatment. The people who now carry on his legacy aren't simply technicians who know "which button to push." They are men who have learned not only the how but also the why of the methods and processes.
While it's commonplace in business to see "process" reduced to monkey-see-monkey-do button pushing by barely trained technicians -- all in the interest of efficiency of course -- that's not what has transpired here.
What's happened with Paul Bos and Buck is the transference of a craft, through years of participation and training (that "apprenticeship" thing again).
Because Buck Knives Inc. is a business, and is expected to put bread on the tables of hundreds of people, process and machinery are employed to produce a product of sufficient quality at economically viable quantities to serve as broad a public as possible over as many generations as possible.
They walk a production tightrope with local/internal economics on one side and offshoring competitors on the other, endeavoring to keep the bulk of their production domestic, produce viable knives, and still hit a price point that keeps them in the market.
Since none of what I just wrote is "news" to most of the folks here, why would I bother?
Only this: the production of a single knife, to exacting specs, from top grade materials, using skilled and practiced methods, with the result being a work of art that will also cut things is an achievement worthy of merit and praise; the production of thousands of them while maintaining cost and quality, usability and affordability, performance and market viability, and doing it all while meeting a standard on which one's family's reputation depends is orders of magnitude harder, and the benefits affect a much broader population.
I admire high quality steelcraft as much as the next guy.
I also have great admiration for the accomplishments of a family that brings a quality product within my reach, and has done so over four generations.
Both of them evoke humility from me.
One of the distinguishing characteristics of humanity is the ability to learn method and process from those who have perfected it and to devise and apply repeatable methodology to such a process.
Manufacturing, in the sense of mass production, is such a process.
While it can be tempting to associate "manufactured" with "second rate" in quality, it should also be noted that the "starving artist" metaphor of production lacks viability: it serves few and often rewards none.
If a business that produces essentially a commodity product -- tools -- is to survive long enough to feed its families, at some point it must automate what can be automated, or be condemned to serve a demographic which may appreciate them mightily but won't keep them fed, absent a wealthy benefactor.
Hoyt Buck ran an actual forge and machine shop. He made knives by hand. He didn't produce them on a large scale because, well, he made them by hand. His son, Al Buck learned from his father, in the forge and machine shop, and took the next step, introducing repeatable processes.
While that was going on, Paul Bos -- still a teenager -- was learning heat treat from a blacksmith who specialized in heat treatment. It was a process that used to be called "apprenticeship" back when people still knew what that was.
Paul met the Buck family through Frank Buck, a racing buddy, who would be in his sixties today had he lived. Paul's business dovetailed nicely with Buck's knifemaking operation, and they forged a partnership that lasted for decades. He finally sold his business to Buck in 2001, but stayed with them, retiring only recently.
The knifemakers with whom he worked were guys he'd served for 20 years and more -- some as long as 30 -- and the fellows who took over the operation had themselves gone through this arcane and lost "apprenticeship" ritual.
There are few people in the world, anywhere, that have achieved Paul's mastery of heat treatment. The people who now carry on his legacy aren't simply technicians who know "which button to push." They are men who have learned not only the how but also the why of the methods and processes.
While it's commonplace in business to see "process" reduced to monkey-see-monkey-do button pushing by barely trained technicians -- all in the interest of efficiency of course -- that's not what has transpired here.
What's happened with Paul Bos and Buck is the transference of a craft, through years of participation and training (that "apprenticeship" thing again).
Because Buck Knives Inc. is a business, and is expected to put bread on the tables of hundreds of people, process and machinery are employed to produce a product of sufficient quality at economically viable quantities to serve as broad a public as possible over as many generations as possible.
They walk a production tightrope with local/internal economics on one side and offshoring competitors on the other, endeavoring to keep the bulk of their production domestic, produce viable knives, and still hit a price point that keeps them in the market.
Since none of what I just wrote is "news" to most of the folks here, why would I bother?
Only this: the production of a single knife, to exacting specs, from top grade materials, using skilled and practiced methods, with the result being a work of art that will also cut things is an achievement worthy of merit and praise; the production of thousands of them while maintaining cost and quality, usability and affordability, performance and market viability, and doing it all while meeting a standard on which one's family's reputation depends is orders of magnitude harder, and the benefits affect a much broader population.
I admire high quality steelcraft as much as the next guy.
I also have great admiration for the accomplishments of a family that brings a quality product within my reach, and has done so over four generations.
Both of them evoke humility from me.
Gordon
Member
Honey why don't you leave this knife in the kitchen? "It's a $1000 knife!" Well it is wonderful for carving, it's the way to go!
So there ya go!
So there ya go!
alaskanativeson
Member
Um, no. You can get an aspect of quality they may share. The AK will be as reliable as anything, because that's what they do. In fact, it's what they do better than just about anything that's ever been devised by man as far as firearms go. However, if I'm a FBI HRT sniper, my $600 AK47 will fire every single time I pull the trigger, but how many times will I need to shoot it at the bad guy who's 1500 meters away before I hit him? Now if I had a $2000 Steyr SSG, how many shots will it take? Different specialty, different role filled, both world class features.EvilGenius said:
Before I moved up to Alaska I knew I'd have different needs than I did living in Utah. Knowing I would be in areas where there were bears big enough to fit my head in their mouths, I wanted a gun I knew would handle the situation. For large bear medicine, I knew there was only one choice for me: A 12 gauge loaded with Brenneke slugs. However, which shotgun to choose? My cousin was very excited about his new Benelli, and I loved shooting it. However, what tipped it for me was reading that the U.S. Marines chose the Mossberg 590 as their shotty of choice since it was the only gun that suffered zero failures or malfunctions in their torture tests. I knew I had my bear country gun. In that case I could have chosen a more expensive gun with a specific speciality that wasn't related to my need, but I went with what I figured fit my parameters best. Still, quality was the deciding factor, but it was quality aimed at the task I'd chosen. Same thing with my knives.
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
Perspective.
You all know Im a knife affecienado. So far I have stayed out of this discusion as aquisition and taste is a personal call.
Just my .02. Why would I spend 300 on a knife? Answer, cause I can Have I ever, no. Not in cash.
Let me explain and further complicate things by saying I have made a few knives. The one I prize the most took about 30 hours to finish, even if I value my time at $10 an hour, thats 300 bucks.
I have a retired knife I bought in 1966. An old Edge brand soligen, 5 inch clip point. Got it at the PX at Ft. Benning. Paid, I think $9.95. Carried it in Viet Nam. I value that knife priceless.
Perspective.
So I guess I havnt been much help after all.
You all know Im a knife affecienado. So far I have stayed out of this discusion as aquisition and taste is a personal call.
Just my .02. Why would I spend 300 on a knife? Answer, cause I can
Have I ever, no. Not in cash.Let me explain and further complicate things by saying I have made a few knives. The one I prize the most took about 30 hours to finish, even if I value my time at $10 an hour, thats 300 bucks.
I have a retired knife I bought in 1966. An old Edge brand soligen, 5 inch clip point. Got it at the PX at Ft. Benning. Paid, I think $9.95. Carried it in Viet Nam. I value that knife priceless.
Perspective.
So I guess I havnt been much help after all.
HellBlazer
Member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2010
- Messages
- 52
$300 isn't that much for a knife. Take a look at Busse Combat or Randall! 
Meridian Blades
Member
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2011
- Messages
- 39
Well it looks like this has come full circle........Wow theres a lot of misinformation out there. Amazing. Nobody has brought this up yet but thought it was worth mentioning......
Lots of folks keep mentioning "Diminished returns",,,,etc. The original poster posted pics of some Busse blades. The secondary market for these is most times higher than the original purchase price. I guess that we could call this "Enhanced returns" ???
Not a fanboy just stating the facts. Some of the $300 -$600 Busse blades get purchased at that price and sold a week or 2 later for a couple hundred bucks more or so.
Lots of folks keep mentioning "Diminished returns",,,,etc. The original poster posted pics of some Busse blades. The secondary market for these is most times higher than the original purchase price. I guess that we could call this "Enhanced returns" ???
Not a fanboy just stating the facts. Some of the $300 -$600 Busse blades get purchased at that price and sold a week or 2 later for a couple hundred bucks more or so.
- Status