Why would I spend $300 on just a knife?

[JVoutilainen]

Wheelgunslinger,

I wonder about that, as well. People seem perfectly comfortable with blowing that same sum, or even much more, on a weekend of partying. And what about having dinner at a (not necessarily so) fancy restaurant? With 300 bucks, or 200 euros you could just about manage it... if you skip wine and dessert. How much do we spend on electronics annually? Is it OK to actually use that 2000 dollar laptop, or should it be locked away behind thick glass and simply displayed?

I use them all - regardless of the price. It is the best way to celebrate the skill of the maker...AND, more to the point, enjoy the product.

 

[JVoutilainen]

Is a $300 knife better than an Opinel? Sure. Is it 33X times better? I don't know about that.

Yes, it can be. But that does not mean it would be similar to a lightsaber. You need a certain amount of skill and experience to be able to enjoy the difference. Someone mentioned whisky earlier. That is also a acquired taste - one that you need to develop to appreciate the difference between conventional and exquisite. Does it mean that the difference between ordinary bulk product and the high-end is "x33"? Yes, it could be, and more, because the scale is subjective.

By the way. What is it about money that makes it so valuable to you? It is a funny picture printed on a piece of paper backed with an illusion. Be glad as long as you can trade pieces of paper for something concrete.

 

[leadcounsel]

What is it about money that makes it so valuable to you? It is a funny picture printed on a piece of paper backed with an illusion. Be glad as long as you can trade pieces of paper for something concrete.

Those pieces of paper represent my time, which equates to my life in hours and days...

If I can get a adequate knife that I can use for the majority of cutting tasks, that is comfortable, ergonimic, etc. for $70, and spend the other $230 (3 times difference) on other items, such as tires for the car, ammo for the gun, electric bill, etc., then I'll buy the $70 and keep the other silly pictures on paper money...

 

[BigN]

I wouldn't spend $20 on a knife. But then again, I'm not a knife guy. I can understand the collectors standpoint, or the guy who feels he needs a quality knife. People spend money, lots of money, on the things that are important to them. I know guys who carry a $10 camera in the woods to take pictures. Camera equipment? It's important to me. I have many thousands of dollars worth of camera equipment. Why? I love to take pictures and that is important to me. When I go in the woods, hunting, fishing, or hiking, whatever, I have a $1500 Nikon digital strapped to my chest. The guys think I'm nuts. As they say, to each his own, that's what makes the world go round

 

[JVoutilainen]

Those pieces of paper represent my time, which equates to my life in hours and days...

Exactly. But at the same time a custom knife maker is not allowed to follow a similar principle? As I have said, many times, it takes about eight hours for a skilled craftsman to make a typical puukko knife (forging the blade, grinding, casting bolsters, fitting bolsters, fitting a handle, shaping the handle, finishing the handle, sharpening, making the last for the "tuppi" or sheath, making the sheath... so on, and so forth). If the maker wants an average salary, by Finnish standards, he would have to ask about 400€ euros for the end product. Instead, you will get completely handmade puukkos for 100€, or so - even from famous makers. So, tell me, why is it expected that a craftspersons time is worth less?

 

[JVoutilainen]

When I go in the woods, hunting, fishing, or hiking, whatever, I have a $1500 Nikon digital strapped to my chest. The guys think I'm nuts. As they say, to each his own, that's what makes the world go round

For some reason I don't think that is crazy, at all...

 

[Pete D.]

worth

Y'know.....this discussion treads into very murky areas.....we are talking about worth, about value. Dangerous and difficult words.
Is a $300 knife worth 33X an Opinel? What does that mean? I have a bunch of Opinels - great and handy knives. I keep two in the kitchen. I used to carry one on my belt. I've carried another one in my pocket.
But they don't do for me what the Boye knife does......that ineffable something that transcends mere utility. I have a lot of knives....I'm not a collector: I just like the things and buy them. Some - like the Boye - are special in ways that are hard to define, maybe impossible to define. If you are comparing Opinels, or Bucks, or Schrades to custom knives....if you don't "see" that difference, then the discussion has no place to go. In discussions like this one, if you are arguing about utility vs. worth and value, you are essentially at a dead end. How does one define worth? It's as tough as "need". Do I need more than one knife really? Do I need, really, more than one shotgun, rifle, pistol? Do I need that Damascus folder? Yeah, I do. It's not "just a knife".
Pete

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I find such a discussion of pragmatic cost accounting a little funny, when it comes from this community.
I mean, we're the same population (generally) who made plastic pistols de rigeur because of all the torture tests. Instead of deciding that we needed a nice pinned and recessed Smith or a 1911, shooters decided that they needed a plastic handgun that had been frozen in ice, buried in mud, and all other kinds of torture tests. Glock's ad campaigns literally redefined what was an acceptable standard for choosing a sidearm, even though most people will never take one into the tundra, a peat bog, or run over one with a bulldozer right before they need it.
We avail ourselves of numerous excuses about guns, but tell ourselves an opposite set of excuses when it comes to blades.

I realize we're all different and no one is a 2d figure of a firearms enthusiast or owner. I'm just saying that we, as a group, have a reputation for falling prey to the worst case scenario and .mil advertising hype until it comes to knives.
Then, it seems, just ok is the standard.
"will this handgun fire after having been thrown through a wood chipper?"
"will this knife open a bag of peanuts?"

 

[EvilGenius]

I find such a discussion of pragmatic cost accounting a little funny, when it comes from this community.
I mean, we're the same population (generally) who made plastic pistols de rigeur because of all the torture tests. Instead of deciding that we needed a nice pinned and recessed Smith or a 1911, shooters decided that they needed a plastic handgun that had been frozen in ice, buried in mud, and all other kinds of torture tests. Glock's ad campaigns literally redefined what was an acceptable standard for choosing a sidearm, even though most people will never take one into the tundra, a peat bog, or run over one with a bulldozer right before they need it.
We avail ourselves of numerous excuses about guns, but tell ourselves an opposite set of excuses when it comes to blades.

I realize we're all different and no one is a 2d figure of a firearms enthusiast or owner. I'm just saying that we, as a group, have a reputation for falling prey to the worst case scenario and .mil advertising hype until it comes to knives.
Then, it seems, just ok is the standard.
"will this handgun fire after having been thrown through a wood chipper?"
"will this knife open a bag of peanuts?"

Because guns are exponentially more likely to fail under those conditions due to their complexity.

Knives aren't nearly as complex, plus if it's packed full of mud or whatever I can just dunk it underwater, shake it around and we're good to go. I would not expect the same results at all in regards to a pistol or rifle.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Depending On It

I'm starting to enjoy this thread.

The perspectives show dimension and depth.

Let me chuck out another perspective. Call it the "stayin' alive" perspective.

Since handguns have been added for analogy/comparison, and since a handgun's primary "design purpose" is defense (stayin' alive), let's apply a similar standard to the knife.

Given: A guy buys a gun on which he proposes to depend for protecting his life.

Therefore: A guy buys a knife on which he proposes to depend for preserving his life.

This doesn't imply anything about self defense with a knife. There is no shortage of "preserving his life" scenarios that don't involve a confrontational conflict.

• EMT/Fire Crew,
• Mountain/Rock Climbing,
• Spelunking,
• Reef/Sea Diving,
• Extended Backwoods Camping,
• Severe Conditions Hunting,
• Heavy Outdoor Work (e.g. Logging),
• [Insert Scenario Here].

Does the $20 knife still work for that? Well, I have a few $20 pieces that might serve in some of those scenarios, but with my life on the line, I think I'd be willing to spring for something a little more dependable.

The "what's your life worth" argument that's heard in gun discussions could be applied here.

Maybe a $50 or $70 knife would do fine in that "crunch" situation. Maybe a guy would want to stack a little more cash on that.

I have several sub-$100 knives that I believe would serve well under harsh conditions. However, if harsh conditions was the plan, I think I might go shopping for something that had such conditions accounted for in the design.

You know, "use the right tool for the job."

No, I'm not throwing my knife into a wood chipper, but I might want to review the failure testing of the design I'm selecting.

With my life on the line, $200 or $300 wouldn't seem like all that much.

 

[JVoutilainen]

When backpacking I always carry at least two knives - custom, or self made. Typically two puukkos, so that there is no need to start sharpening immediately if I damage the edge of one of the knives, and that I have a spare if the completely unexpected happens and I lose or break the other. In addition to that I have one lightweight slipjoint (not necessarily custom) - just in case. If I had to choose only one knife I would take an older one - one that is trustworthy according to actual experience. I would hesitate to choose a new knife, no matter who made it. That is how I see the survival aspect of the question.

On the other hand, there was a time I would not have recognised a quality blade if someone stuck one between my ribs, and I frequently backpacked in deep arctic backwoods with only a cheopo-crud Ahti on my belt...alone (agreed, not very smart)...and, unsurprisingly*, survived.

*backwoods in Finland means you are, at most, 15 miles from the nearest road...unless you accidentally cross the border into russian siberia.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Arfin, that's the point I was getting at.
We'll readily and rabidly agree (most of us, anyway) that you should buy the best gun you can because your life may depend on it.
That same mindset seems to erode when we consider a personal knife.

The knife we carry interacts much more with us in our daily lives. Our previous and succeeding generations see us using them. Our friends borrow them for a few minutes or seconds. The kids, nieces and nephews, and idiot brother in laws learn to sharpen things by watching us put the edge back on our daily knives. We leave the dna of our lives on a knife that goes with us on our day to day journey for long periods of time.
That's a fairly lofty position to fill with something that'll get us by.

However, if you can barely scrape the money together for a decent gun and have a few nickels to rub together for a knife, you do what you gotta do. I get that.

 

[EvilGenius]

Arfin, that's the point I was getting at.
We'll readily and rabidly agree (most of us, anyway) that you should buy the best gun you can because your life may depend on it.
That same mindset seems to erode when we consider a personal knife.

Is the "best gun" also the most expensive?

A lot of the $800-$1000 pistols out there have a lot of fancy doodads designed to make slight increases in accuracy or whatever, yet tend to fail much more than the more moderately priced versions (especially 1911s).

Heck, I could get a Glock for $500 that's arguably the most dependable pistol out there and it'll most definitely get the same job done as any $1000 pistol.

Or in regards to rifles, you could nab a $600 AK that'll be as reliable and get the same job done as the $2000+ high tech stuff that's out there.

 

[JVoutilainen]

Is the "best gun" also the most expensive?

Is the most expensive knife going to be the most dependable one? Is it going to outperform everything else? It could be, and it could do that, but then again it could just as easily be a fantasy concoction in precious metals, rainbow damascus and with strange bat wing like random protrusions. That might not be the best choice for bushcraft or survival. Again, what ever it is you prefer.

I doubt that any custom maker is going to have a mind numbing price tag on knife designed solely on utility/performance in mind. Then again you'd have to make sure to contact a maker who truly and honestly knows how to bring out those qualities in a knife. Not all of them do. Dependability of a blade has much to do with the correct heat treatment of the steel, therefore, you might have to steer clear of makers who "outsource" their HT-process, for example. I would.

 

[Valkman]

Dependability of a blade has much to do with the correct heat treatment of the steel, therefore, you might have to steer clear of makers who "outsource" their HT-process, for example. I would.

Really. I outsourced all of my stainless knives to Paul Bos and did all the carbon steel ones myself. I don't know of anyone who "steered clear" because of this, but I did have people buy because it was done by Bos. I am more leary of guys that do their own stainless HT because they simply do not have the equipment that Bos - now Farmer has.

 

[JVoutilainen]

Valkman,

Yes, really. That would be my choice, and also, my recommendation. Moreover, note that I said "you might have to steer clear", "might" being the key word. IF you have a trusted individual, or a company, to do your heat treat, fine, glad to hear that. However, would I purchase a product like that? No, I would not.

So, now you know at least one person who would steer clear. Not necessarily a big loss for you

Edit: Let me expand upon that, a bit. For me the heat treat represents the crux of the entire process. That is the 80%, the "magic". That is the point where the knife is truly made. If you leave that part to a contractor it gives me, the potential customer, a feeling that you are working with materials you do not understand. Furthermore, be it Bos, or any company, how would I know whether they follow the manufacturers instructions to a T? There is no way to know. For me throwing a name, like Bos, around is an appeal to authority. It is a way to avoid the issue. For me, personally, it does not work.

 

[wolf695]

A good knife is aways worth the$! It should take a beaten,and sharpen up !

 

[Pete D.]

knives

The knife we carry interacts much more with us in our daily lives.

+1. The most basic tool.
Is the most expensive knife always the best one. No. $300 knives, however, are not the most expensive.
Pete

 

[JTW Jr.]

Furthermore, be it Bos, or any company, how would I know whether they follow the manufacturers instructions to a T? There is no way to know. For me throwing a name, like Bos, around is an appeal to authority. It is a way to avoid the issue. For me, personally, it does not work.

In the knife world , having BOS do the heat treat is like having Lingenfelter build your Vette engine , or a Rousch engine , etc.

I put more trust in someone who only does HT and has spent countless years perfecting that one process.

As many knifemakers have said , using BOS for the HT is like insurance that the steel is now all it can be.

*****************
You can't compare a custom 1911 to a custom knife as I don't know of any custom gunsmiths who make their own frames , slides and blls....so in the end are they not just refined "builds" ?

*****************

Now as far as how much to spend on a knife... "smiles-per-dollar" , that ratio is different for everyone. I would never drop more than $30 on a single meal , but others may fancy dropping $200 on a meal. To me , what is the difference ? It is going to do the same thing , give me nutrition and be cleaned up with charmin later , so why spend the extra money ?

Does a $300 bottle of scotch give you that much more than a $30 bottle ? To some yes , others no.

We all put our $$$ where it makes us happy , we may not NEED these more expensive things , but there isn't anything wrong with having them.

If I break down the # of times I use my knife vs # of times I use my carry gun , the knife is a better deal value wise , gives me more smiles-per-dollar , but I enjoy them both

 

[JVoutilainen]

JTW Jr.,

So, If I'm not convinced by the first appeal to authority, maybe I will be persuaded by repetition? It does not work that way...for me.

Listen, I know what the name Bos represents for many people. That is, however, not the issue. If you are happy to have a "custom" knife with an "industrial" heat treatment, fine - what ever rocks your boat, as they say. I would choose a maker who has the necessary facilities and faculties to heat treat even "novelty" steels, instead. When I want custom, I don't want semi mass produced, I want truly hand made. And no, I am not saying this is the ONLY path you can take, but for me, personally, it is the most appealing one.

Consider this. When you buy a production buck knife, with a Bos era heat treatment, is it equal to a hand made knife meticulously and individually produced by a master of his craft, when it comes to heat treatment? In you book the answer is obviously a resounding "YES", but in mine it is, unsurprisingly, "probably not".

Before you take offense at my words, take that famous "chill pill" and realise I am NOT saying that heat treatment done by Bos's company can't be good. In fact, I believe it can be excellent, but, it is not my cup of tea, and I recognise the limitations of mass production vs. individual attention. That is all.

 

[Valkman]

Man you got some strange ideas about heat treating. You'd prefer I do it in my shop even though I cannot have the same equipment as Buck Knives? You'd prefer inferior to superior? I have read the opinions of many knifemakers and customers and never have I read anything like this. You are in a great minority.

 

[JVoutilainen]

Valkman,

You'd prefer I do it in my shop even though I cannot have the same equipment as Buck Knives?

As it happens, I just indicated specifically what it is I want in my previous post - and it is, by no stretch of imagination, something inferior. The reason you choose to ignore/misinterpret what I said is something else. And since this is not a psychology forum, I suggest we just agree to disagree on the issue.

You got one thing right. I am in the minority, probably not even in the one percent. Not because of skill, but because of the choices I make. But, at least the those choices are my own.

To be blunt, I don't care what the "majority" chooses to believe. That is perception - it has nothing to do with truth. And the truth is that there are custom makers who do have both the skill and the equipment to perform every trick in the book, INDIVIDUALLY on every single knife they make.

 

[JVoutilainen]

For some reason I feel an urge to rant about this topic, just a bit.

As I have already stated, there is no doubt that people who think the story ends at 60 bucks, or at Buck factory, or at BOS are locked in an old fashioned control paradigm, where the opinion of an authority figure is considered gospel. Our entire history tells us that dreaming about mankind ever finding the pinnacle of technological develpment is an illusion, upheld solely to bolster the leading powers of the day. Our reality, at this very moment, is that every individual, with the financial means and a necessary set of skills, is going to be able to achieve/produce technology that easily rivals the apollo program, for example. Obviously not on that scale, but technologically speaking, yes. These days we have access to tabletop versions of computer guided machinery that were formerly reserved solely for industry - meaning that we have the keys to direct our own technological development in a decentralised manner. It is not arrogant to state that.

Why then, do respectable people start acting all foolish when confronted with such obvious facts? Because they have, unbeknownst to themselves, attached part of their ego on that old paradigm. So, when I say the buck might not stop at Bucks, they interpret that as a personal insult.

So, am I truly arrogant if I claim we are not at the end of the road of development? No, I am demonstrably not. Am I wrong to claim that things that were formerly reserved for high-tech goverment agencies are now commonly in use in our garages? Again the answer is, clearly, no. But, people think it is arrogant to point out these facts, because the ”majority” has been literally conditioned to scoff, and laugh at anything outside the ”accepted reality”, more to the point, their narrow perspective, and they need a confirmation from what they consider an authority to be able to move forward. That is, after all, how you become succesful in life, right? You get trained, accept a set of beliefs and integrate. Sorry, not for me. I recognise that were are at the beginning of our technological development, but to seriously move forward on larger scale we need a paradigm shift in consciousness. The top of the pyramid is already moving, and it is worrying that the rest of us are not.

Does that mean I’m a ”new ager”. No, because I don’t believe in enlightenment through meditation, or drugs, or wishful thinking, I believe in enlightenment through hard work, taking chances and making/accepting mistakes and learning from them. I also believe it is healthy to shake the tree from time to time, to find out whether it truly has it's roots deeply embedded in Reality. Apparently some people consider that foolish, apparently they think they can find the fountain of knowledge just by floating in mid-stream. I have no problem saying they are fools.

As I indicated earlier I see the process of heat treatment (each polar opposite of the scale) as the 80% of knife making. That is the pivotal point, key, the crux of the matter - that is the magic, the alchemy. I also believe in a wider reality than commonly accepted. I really consider things like; since the hardening process involves magnetism, is it possible that the earths (or local) magnetic fields have an effect on the internal structure of the steel and orientation of the carbides, for example. How about gravity? How does that, and particularly the local differences in the field, effect the end product.

These are rational questions, but, nearly impossible to discuss with the vast majority of knife enthusiasts, even knife makers, especially when there is a crowd of people - all conditioned to consider deep contemplation as something ridiculous, pretentious or arrogant - present. That needs to change. One good example of the difficulties is the controvercial issue of damascus, wootz and pattern welding. Some time ago I tried to explore the topic on this board, but got told by an administrator that the issue is beyond the scope of this forum. The High Road? Truly?

 

[kamagong]

Interesting viewpoints. I'm not sure where I fall on the heat treatment issue, but it's always good to think about these things.

With regards to Paul Bos, he is a heat treatment guru. It is understandable that people in the industry send him their blades for heat treatment; nobody does it better. But if I remember correctly, Bos specializes in stainless steels like S30V. Heat treating stainless steels properly requires expensive equipment that many makers just can't afford. So they farm out the heat treatment to Bos.

On the other hand it is interesting to note that most, if not all, of the acknowledged masters do everything themselves, including HT. I'm talking about people like Tony Bose, Don Fogg, and Ed Fowler. These are men highly respected by their peers, who share their knowledge freely, and whose advice others seek. They are masters of course, and not everyone shares their skill.

 

[JVoutilainen]

kamagong,

I don't doubt for one moment mr. Bos's skill, and were I to order a knife made by Bos, and heat treated by Bos personally, I would have no issue. The problem is, it is a company, and because of the sheer number that pass through that company I consider it mass production. Now, mass production does not mean "bad", but it is not "custom".

I would add Jay Fisher to your list.