Would you buy current M700?

[BWS]

The last two "new" 700's here;

2016 stainless CDL,Walnut with fluted barrel.Topped with VXII 3-9X40....silver finish.Has never seen a jacketed bullet.Shoots bragging groups with 170 g GC old Lyman 311041.Nose bumped,as cast body.IMR 4895 running @2100 fps.Bought it as a deep mountains varmint rig,then put it away cause it's too nice to drag around.

....six months later.....

Get a phatt T.I.P. from a cabmet job.Beautiful kitchen...since SWMBO didn't need to know about the $$$,said what the heck.Stainless SPS 700,this time a SA.7-08 was chosen,again....no JB's have been down the pipe.Have another 7-08 but it was a LA and is a jacket shooter.The SPS has a 24" brrl which is my fav.It is a tack driver!!!The load is too complicated to recipe....it involved me grinding a D reamer to produce nose sizing/swaging.....and that was the easy part,doh.It's loaded to mag length and will tear the bttm out of a beer can @100 as FAST as you can shuck'm and shoot'm.Sports one off semi-iridescent Oak moss green camo.Left the rubber panels grey on factory ghetto stock.Several accuracy "tricks" done to stocks innards.Sports a 1-4X20 Leupold in Weaver QD mounts.Load developed with bigger scope.

So,yup....would get a 14 twist stainless,baby bros to above.Just got to be creative sneaking past momma.It will even get the same shadow camo....that way,she won't know one from the other.Going with a HBR 6X scope and 223

 

[someguy2800]

Thats funny. Luckily my wife doesn't know anything about guns and can't tell one from another so it goes unnoticed when a new one shows up.

 

[BWS]

someguy,mine didn't for years.Then one day she walked into my gun room and there was over 1/2dz rifles.Every one of them was same OD green bolt action Harris bi pods.Can't remember why they were all lined up? Maybe a family pic or something.

Anyway,she stood there looking at them...then looks at me.Back N forth....the sweat beads starting to form on my brow,she walked off shaking her head.

So,now I do these stupid bada$$ paint schemes.We have full on paint facility,$$$$ spray guns,yadayada.Any way.....now they're all done up in trick camo patterns.Hey 35+ years of marriage.....gotta keep it fresh?

 

[Slamfire]

The trick to magic is timing and misdirection.Take a look at the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports magazinemedia/1533525/1014_ssusa_archive.pdf

The last article , page 38, is a reprint of a May 1958 American Rifleman article "Assessing the Accuracy of 22 lr Target Rifles."

This article is based on test data, it is a very well planned and executed article. Smallbore prone shooters shoot 40 shots per "match", two targets of 20 shots for record each "match", and there are typically three to four "matches" to determine the aggregate. Smallbore prone targets have four record bulls for 50 yards, two record bulls for 100 yards. This is to help the scorer and the shooters.

You can understand for both the scorer and shooter, just how impossible it is to determine what is going on when five shots will cluster like this. For the scorer, are there any missing shots?, what shots are X's versus 10's when all you have is a ragged hole.




For the shooter, you need to spread the shots out so you can tell what is happening to the bullets as you shoot. So for small bore, each target is worth 200 points, each match is the aggregate of 40 shots, so for small bore prone shooters, they want perfect 40 shot groups.



Actually they want perfect 160 shot groups, and they want the groups to be less than the X ring in size. What you find, if you ever have your rifle tested at the Lapua test center in Mesa AZ or at Eley, is that lot selected ammunition will hold the ten ring at all distances but not the X ring.

What the article shows is that if a 40 shot group is the standard, then at 50 yards (the analysis goes out to 200 yards) than a 20 shot group is 88% the size of a 40 shot group, a ten shot group 71%, and a five shot group 57% of the size of a 40 shot group. Interestingly, at 100 yards, a prone with a sling group is 38% larger on average than if the group is shot bench rested.

Anyway the trick to shooting "small groups" is to shoot a lot of small round count groups, like three shot groups, toss out the unacceptably large targets, keep only the targets that show clustered shots.

Here is a good example, a half MOA group at 300 yards:



Same everything , pretty good at sub 4 inches at 300 yards, but definitely not sub MOA over ten shots. Guess that makes me a loser since I don't I don't own a sub MOA M70 featherweight in 6.5 Swede, boo-hoo, boo-hoo.





There are lots of sub MOA three shot, or even five shot groups, in these composite groups of National Match ammunition. No in print Gunwriter is ever going to shoot 270 rounds per load and tell you the group size. Neither in fact, will I!



You see this all the time, someone posts one five shot, or three shot group on an internet forum and claims that they have a half MOA lever action, and it shoots half MOA all the time. Or, if you are an in print gunwriter, convince all the readers that the rifle you are shilling for, is sub MOA, based on maybe five 3 shot groups, ( a total of 15 rounds) or nine shots based on three 3 shot groups. The return in investment for advertizing has to be very high as the in print gun writer gets paid $400 for each article, and each rifle he sells is about $850. People will believe whatever an authority figure puts in print, and advertisers know, nonsense sells.

 

[mshootnit]

Some of the posts are qualified, some up to interpretation, but I thin it is about 19 yes to 22 no at this point.
Heard decent things mostly about the SPS.

 

[Driftertank]

I've started using an RMS (root mean square) method to judge the precision of one load from another. I felt that CEP (radius into which 50% of shots fired will impact), while statistically relevant, wasnt stringent enough, while R95 requires too large a sample size to be relevant for a typical load workup session. RMS typically gives a group value for which 60-70% of rounds are likely to fall within a diameter, while still taking fliers into account.

Meh. Maybe i just think about it too hard....

 

[hq]

If I was in market for a bolt action I might, but the main reason for me to think twice is Tikka T3x series. Particularly the TAC A1 in 6.5CM has steamrolled the interest I've had in 700 in its mall ninja configurations. Competition on high(ish) quality, mid-price bolt action market has become fierce lately and the 700 and Winchester 70 aren't quite as obvious choices as they've been for decades.

 

[BWS]

HQ,what's a mall ninja 700?.....haven't been to a mall in 25years but I might want one?Do other manufacturers make them too?

 

[hq]

HQ,what's a mall ninja 700?.....haven't been to a mall in 25years but I might want one?Do other manufacturers make them too?

https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-700/model-700-tactical-chassis for starters.
You know, the "mission adaptable" (their words, not mine) stuff, most commonly used for making Blackwater operator impersonations on local gun ranges while punching holes in tactical assault cardboard and chanting "MOA... MOA... MOA...". I'd pick a TAC A1 for that, even though I lost my last and only Cordura belt and tactical pants somewhere in the attic back in early-mid 90's.

 

[Clark]

I have bought 9 used Rem 700 rifles.
I replace the barrels, triggers, recoil lugs, stocks, bolts, extractor, ejector, bolt handles, scope base, scope rings, recoil pad, sling studs, pillars, bipod, sling, rear bag, ammo pouch/cheek rest, action screws, bottom metal, magazine, scope.


1971 $180 2001 22-250 rebarrel to 6mmBR shot two antelope in 2016
1963 $300 2012 7mmRM rebarrel to 7mmRM shot a deer in 2013
1996 $395 2012 7mmRM rebarrel to 7mmRM
2000 $400 2014 270 [waiting for me to rebarrel]
1965 $369 2015 30-06 rebarrel to 6.5-06
Unknown year of manufacture $675 2016 someone else rebarreled to 243AI [waiting for me to rebarrel]
1964 $295 2017 30-06 [waiting for me to rebarrel]
1965 $249 2017 7mmRM rebarrel to 7mmRM shot 7 deer in 2017
2012 $500 2017 243 [waiting for me to rebarrel]

If PTG is going to charge me $450 for a Rem700 replacement bolt, I might as well start buying Defiance actions.

 

[Driftertank]

Lol. Reminds me of a time i went to the range a few years ago with some friends. There were some guys from a local tactical supply shop there, with some cool toys; suppressor fitted pistols and carbines, and a couple of chassis-type rifles i couldn't recognize. They were lettin other folks try out their toys. It was fun. But at one point one of the guys from the shop decided to get on one of those big "sniper rifles" and send a few shots at a 6" gong at around 350yds. I could hear them calling misses, shot after shot. Took around 6 shots to make one connect.
I thought it looked like fun, so i pulled out my PTR-91, which at the time was still in base configuration, before i added my scope and PRS stock, etc. I loaded up some Silver Bear FMJ (lol) and set up prone, started taking potshots at the same gong, while my buddy used my scoped 10/22 to call for me. Got about 1 hit in 5.

Decided to ask the guys from the shop if they wanted to shoot it, since they'd let my burn up some rounds in their suppressor-equipped guns. One of them said he'd take me up on that. So i grabbed a full 20 rounder and brought the rifle over to their bench. He looked at me, looked at the rifle, and asked me, "where's the scope?" Told him i didn't have one for it yet. I can only assume he thought i was sandbagging him after scoring hits on the long target with my irons. Lol.

Sorry, off topic again, i know. But the talk of Mall Ninja rifles stirred up the memory.

 

[Clark]

I've started using an RMS (root mean square) method to judge the precision of one load from another. I felt that CEP (radius into which 50% of shots fired will impact), while statistically relevant, wasnt stringent enough, while R95 requires too large a sample size to be relevant for a typical load workup session. RMS typically gives a group value for which 60-70% of rounds are likely to fall within a diameter, while still taking fliers into account.

Meh. Maybe i just think about it too hard....

Einstein said to go for the simplest model that works, but no simpler.
I designed an amplifier 10 years ago for civilian jet. There were 100 components that affected gain. I calculated the worst worst cases of high and low gain. The feedback from auto test of a production run came back, and the results were a million times more gain accuracy than I predicted.

It seems component value errors were cancelling component value errors. More knowledgeable engineers told me that I would have to R.M.S or Monte Carlo the calculations.

My model was too simple for Einstein.

What has that got to do with shooting? If there is some accuracy ritual that has an effect on the precision in target shooting, it may not be detectable. Other errors may be cancelling it out or just masking it. I have been poo pooing accuracy rituals that show me no improvement.

My model was too simple for Einstein.

 

[dh1633pm]

Are you saying that Remi ngton is shipping out the rejects?

Nope. I am saying that it is of the opinion of multiple people close to Remington that there could be a ship first attitude in Ilion. I also said I would buy a 700 and my Milspec and Model 7 are both excellent.

 

[mshootnit]

Nope. I am saying that it is of the opinion of multiple people close to Remington that there could be a ship first attitude in Ilion. I also said I would buy a 700 and my Milspec and Model 7 are both excellent.

Sight unseen through a large vendor or not enough trust and see it first? How much faith in big green these days?

 

[dh1633pm]

I got both from the same dealer. Sight unseen until I opened the boxes. Triggers were both recalled? Replaced them both with a popular aftermarket brand. I don't see the Arms being located in Ilion much longer. It will be moved to Alabama. I think they are awaiting their two hundred year mark.

I have products from all the big makers. Savage, Ruger, Marlin (Marlin and Remlin), Steyr, and many others. Some had their own set of issues that seemed to pass right by QC. My Savage during break in, shot all by itself on the down swing of the bolt, third shot. Whoops, trigger out of adjustment. Someone here helped me test and fix it. I had never touched the trigger before fixing it.

My Mini 6.8 couldn't hit the broad side of barn (sent it off to ASI be fixed).

Marlin Camp 9 self destructed after a short number of shots. Seems the buffer destroyed itself and got its little gummy pieces in everything. Aftermarket buffer to the rescue.

My new Steyr Scout RFR wouldn't eject 17 HMR's. Ripped the rim. Had to really really clean the chamber.

My Rossi wouldn't cycle after a few rounds, I took it apart and polished all the parts and replaced the springs, works great now. Nobody is perfect and Remington is certainly under a lot of pressure. I see it in my friends faces. I can see someone letting some slip by to meet a quota.

 

[Sniper66]

I have three 700s and like them all. I had one accidental discharge; my buddy was using it at the time. I immediately replaced the trigger/safety with a Timney. The smith who worked on it says he's seen that happen with many different guns and brands. Said sometimes it can be just dirt that interferes with normal function and that the trigger I replaced looked OK to him. Still, I replaced it. I have 4 Remington rifles and all are great shooters including the one I just bought, a 700 CDL .243; helped by my reloads. Excellent fit and finish. I have a couple of rifles that are more accurate, but not by much. Remington still makes very good products, but they have a lot of worthy competition in the ones you guys have suggested. Was going to buy a Tikka until I found an amazing bargain on the 700.

 

[lovethosesooners]

Absolutely and say so due to my experience with them as well as the Model 70’s, Savage’s, Ruger and X bolts I still own-like every one of them and don’t have a single 1 of any of them that don’t shoot AT LEAST 5 shot moa groups...if any didn’t, I wouldn’t still own them.

The 2 mil spec 5r 700’s I have (308 and 300 W mag gen 2) are among my favorites....have a couple of loads each will shoot 1/2” groups, along with similar accuracy with factory rounds.

Same experience with shotguns-depending on application, the 2 Versamax I have are among favorites as well.

Of the 10 Remington’s I’ve bought new since 2010, I did have to send the
1st versamax in for repair due to it having a few of the early issues they had on release-had it back in less than 2 weeks and it’s ran perfect since.

My understanding is that Rem made some signifIcant qc improvements a year or so ago, but again, maybe I’m the luckiest guy on the world due to my experiences but mine have been excellent (sarcasm btw).

 

[Coal Dragger]

Under almost no circumstances would I buy any new Remington product.

 

[RonSC]

I own vintage 700s and have few complaints, When Remington QC started taking a nosedive, I was willing
to give "Big Green" the benefit of the doubt, convincing myself that it was a merely a hiccup until Cerebus reared it's ugly head. What I had hoped were "isolated cases" of substandard production began to replicate
Itself in the Marlin's quality as well.
Sadly ,IMO , this has become the the rule rather than the exception....