Would you carry Sig 320 with 4 1/2 lb trigger?

[Kawamax]

I'm sure there are many P320 pistols that have not yet failed. But there are a few that have.

I think that would be “but there a few that have been alleged to fail”. Or is there a case where the revised pistol has been proven to be at fault?

 

[Kleanbore]

I think that would be “but there a few that have been alleged to fail”. Or is there a case where the revised pistol has been proven to be at fault?

There have been numerous credible reports of instances in which revised pistols have fired without the trigger being pulled and without indication of error caused by holster issues..

That would be worrisome enough, but SIG's statement that guns exposed to shock and/or vibration may fire without the trigger being pulled is particularly alarming.

 

[someguy2800]

Thanks for the explanation. My perspective is a bit different. Note that I’m not saying that you are wrong. Just that my experience has been different and that leads me to different conclusions. I have four Sigs (2xP220, P239, P365) and they have all been flawless. My 365 has never had a failure of any kind.

A friend of mine has a Ruger that has had two firing pins break. Ruger CS has been really good about getting him new ones, and with the last one the CS guy said “yeah we got a bad batch some time back…”. He hasn’t liked the down time but overall he’s happy with Ruger and his gun. I agree with him. Like I say my 365 hasn’t had any issues, but if the firing pin broke and they sent me a new one I’d be happy. I don’t see a firing pin as a recall kind of thing. But if there were trigger issues, slide issues, or potential chamber issues then I’d expect a recall.

What model ruger was that? There was another issue with the P365 at the same time. There was a spring or something that broke and rendered the trigger dead. As far as I know they were both dealt with a long time ago. I just don’t like the way that sig has tried to sidestep the issues.

 

[someguy2800]

Then I'm assuming you don't give Glock a Pass when they've lied about fixes they've had to addressed over the years. They usually don't lie, they just never admit that there is an issue and fix it in production...like SIG did with their voluntary upgrade.

The one that stands out for me is when they claimed that the failure of Gen 3 .40 caliber Glocks with mounted weapon lights was due to magazine springs...but then addressed it (lack of flex in the frame) with the introduction of the Gen 4 guns

I certainly don’t. The issue of chamber support on the 40 and 10mm barrels come to mind.

 

[Kawamax]

What model ruger was that? There was another issue with the P365 at the same time. There was a spring or something that broke and rendered the trigger dead. As far as I know they were both dealt with a long time ago. I just don’t like the way that sig has tried to sidestep the issues.

Its a .22 - Mark IV, the latest generation.

 

[tarosean]

I dont really like Sigs but would definitely carry a less than a 4.5# trigger

 

[Alllen Bundy]

I think that would be a waste of time. A sufficient number of tests encompassing a sufficient number of variables should address any intrinsic design issues. It would seem likely that SIG has done that. The remaining issue would be manufacturing process variations as they affect the design functionality, which could be more elusive and which would require testing numerous examples.

NEVER assume that a manufacturer is competent and/or ethical. I had one company ask me to falsify a UL safety testing report!

The saying at another company was: "Get it out the door. We'll fix it in the field."

At a 3rd company they were having difficulty making a particular transformer meet specifications and production was at a standstill. The foreman, WITHOUT AUTHORITY, changed the specification that the transformer was required to meet. I mentioned this to an engineer who just then decided to take a walk through the factory floor and just happened to notice that the foreman's new testing specification was INCORRECT and then the engineer reinstated the original specification. I then troubleshot the problem and determined that the coil winders were putting too much tension on a thin wire and stretching it when they wound the transformer coils.

Maybe Sig has done the appropriate testing and maybe they haven't. Sig released the original P320 with a drop safe problem that should have easily been caught in preliminary testing long before the pistol was released for sale. Was Sig incompetent and/or was Sig unethical, and did Sig learn from this error? Unfortunately Sig is NOT transparent with their testing.

My 365 has never had a failure of any kind.

Maybe not yet. But have you tried to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity? Sometimes the stripper rail is so rough from the factory that it digs deep scratches into the brass shell cases and is extremely difficult to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity. My P365 was extremely difficult to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity, but it wasn't a problem with my new P365XL. Polishing the stripper rail cured the problem in my P365 and also made it even easier to retract the slide with my P365XL. The quality of Sig varies.

 

[ECVMatt]

This video is worth watching. At around the 1:15 mark there is a clip from a police parking lot that shows a P320 fire in the holster. Both of the detective's hands were filled, so he was not touching the trigger.



The video is from 2021.

So no Sig 320's for me. It is just not worth the risk.

 

[Kawamax]

Maybe not yet. But have you tried to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity? Sometimes the stripper rail is so rough from the factory that it digs deep scratches into the brass shell cases and is extremely difficult to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity. My P365 was extremely difficult to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity, but it wasn't a problem with my new P365XL. Polishing the stripper rail cured the problem in my P365 and also made it even easier to retract the slide with my P365XL. The quality of Sig varies.

I’ve had no issues with retracting my slide and my brass (I only look at it occasionally) looks fine with no scratches.

I’ve followed your other thread and my impression is that you are converting a mass produced gun into a hand fitted gun. There is nothing wrong with that, but I don’t blame a mass produced gun for not being hand fitted. I have a Springfield 1911 that I modified to get it where I wanted. I also have a Nighthawk Talon that frankly started at well beyond my capabilities to improve. I don’t blame the Springfield for not being a Nighthawk as it was about 1/5 the. cost. Although I did buy the Nighthawk used to help defray the cost.

 

[Kawamax]

This video is worth watching. At around the 1:15 mark there is a clip from a police parking lot that shows a P320 fire in the holster. Both of the detective's hands were filled, so he was not touching the trigger.



The video is from 2021.

So no Sig 320's for me. It is just not worth the risk.

That looks like rather damning evidence.

 

[Gordon]

That firing in holster stuff probably had the trigger already partially pulled when reholstering and movement and or bumps set it off. The problem on Sig 320 is most likely the width of the trigger on the gun is more prone to getting rubbed on certain holsters when reholstering . That said I would NOT carry a 320 design without a manual safety in field conditions with a sub 3.5 pound trigger, ESPECIALLY one that has had the trigger movement shortened with adjustment screws ect. I was told all this by an unnamed foremost Sig expert when discussing the trigger on my new Sig Xten which I will be hunting with from now on. It has a 4.5 pound factory trigger with standard settings and springs. He did NOT want to sell me his adjustable trigger for my uses and was worried about holster design foremost . It was a face to face informal talk and we both agree on the source of this supposed problem .

 

[Alllen Bundy]

That firing in holster stuff probably had the trigger already partially pulled when reholstering and movement and or bumps set it off. The problem on Sig 320 is most likely the width of the trigger on the gun is more prone to getting rubbed on certain holsters when reholstering.

EXACTLY! A video of a gun seemingly going off by itself doesn't mean that it wasn't operator error that caused the problem.

I wouldn't necessarily blame the holster either. It could be that the P320 trigger guard is NOT reasonably wide enough to protect the trigger. Or it could be that the trigger guard was wide enough, but the holster was either very poorly designed or perhaps it was not even designed for the Sig P320. Or perhaps it's even a foreign object inside the holster that partly depressed the trigger when the gun was holstered.

I need to see a test of a P320 unintentionally firing, outside of the holster, before I will believe that the safety mechanisms are inadequate. Although I do think that the P320 striker is overcomplicated.

I measured the trigger guard widths on my P365 and P365XL and they measured 0.3975" and 0.3985" respectively. The flat trigger measured 0.3595" wide. That amounts to the trigger guard extending past the trigger 0.017" on each side.

That begs the question: "How much wider than the trigger does the trigger guard need to be to reasonably protect the trigger from unintentional discharge?"

This would be a good time for everyone to evaluate the trigger guards on their pistols to determine if they provide sufficient protection and whether or not your holsters could rub against the triggers while reholstering your pistols.

Is your holster stiff enough to prevent trigger rub if something presses against your holster?

Does your holster protect the magazine release button from being unintentionally being depressed?

Does your holster have sufficient retention in a scuffle?

My Sig P365 holster did NOT have sufficient retention and my P365 fell out of the holster! I know it was a poor retention system because Sig redesigned it and no longer makes the holster that my P365 fell out of. I have the holster that replaced the old design and the new retention system is vastly superior to the old design.

 

[Kleanbore]

I need to see a test of a P320 unintentionally firing, outside of the holster, before I will believe that the safety mechanisms are inadequate.

I would never bet my life on not having seen such an event.

Gordon's idea of the trigger hav ing been depressed slightly seems feasible. And for me, the possibility is sufficient reason for not carrying one.

 

[someguy2800]

EXACTLY! A video of a gun seemingly going off by itself doesn't mean that it wasn't operator error that caused the problem.

I wouldn't necessarily blame the holster either. It could be that the P320 trigger guard is NOT reasonably wide enough to protect the trigger. Or it could be that the trigger guard was wide enough, but the holster was either very poorly designed or perhaps it was not even designed for the Sig P320. Or perhaps it's even a foreign object inside the holster that partly depressed the trigger when the gun was holstered.

I need to see a test of a P320 unintentionally firing, outside of the holster, before I will believe that the safety mechanisms are inadequate. Although I do think that the P320 striker is overcomplicated.

I measured the trigger guard widths on my P365 and P365XL and they measured 0.3975" and 0.3985" respectively. The flat trigger measured 0.3595" wide. That amounts to the trigger guard extending past the trigger 0.017" on each side.

That begs the question: "How much wider than the trigger does the trigger guard need to be to reasonably protect the trigger from unintentional discharge?"

This would be a good time for everyone to evaluate the trigger guards on their pistols to determine if they provide sufficient protection and whether or not your holsters could rub against the triggers while reholstering your pistols.

Is your holster stiff enough to prevent trigger rub if something presses against your holster?

Does your holster protect the magazine release button from being unintentionally being depressed?

Does your holster have sufficient retention in a scuffle?

My Sig P365 holster did NOT have sufficient retention and my P365 fell out of the holster! I know it was a poor retention system because Sig redesigned it and no longer makes the holster that my P365 fell out of. I have the holster that replaced the old design and the new retention system is vastly superior to the old design.

If a gun is that easy to actuate the trigger by something just rubbing against the side of it, then it either needs a manual safety or a trigger dongle in the center. I must say though I’ve never shot a P320. I picked one up at a gun show and dry fired it and I was shocked how light and short the trigger pull was for a gun with no manual safety or trigger safety. My first thought was that these are negligent discharges in the making, and note I’m using the terms negligent discharge and unintentional discharge to mean two different types of events. It’s part of the reason why I would not be surprised if many, maybe even a majority of the unintentional discharges reported were actually negligent discharges.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

I would never bet my life on not having seen such an event.

But what kind of safety testing have you seen on ANY pistol? It's not like you can look on the manufacturers website and see all of the testing procedures that they used, let alone videos of the testing, to ensure that the gun is safe. The best you get is people on YouTube torturing their guns.

If I were a competitor to Sig I WOULD make available all of the testing procedures that were used to ensure that their guns were safe as a marketing tool to show that they open and transparent and were safer than Sig.

If a gun is that easy to actuate the trigger by something just rubbing against the side of it, then it either needs a manual safety or a trigger dongle in the center.

A manual trigger safety that is engaged eliminates the possibility of nearly all negligent discharges. I wouldn't want to carry a gun without a manual trigger safety.

Except for 2A issues, I would want manual trigger safeties to be mandatory for firearms manufacturers. But that is a slippery slope issue.

One of ways that you can deal with the issue is to have serious criminal and civil penalties if you have a negligent discharge that injures someone or damages property that could have been prevented by the prudent use of a manual trigger safety.

 

[Kleanbore]

A manual trigger safety that is engaged eliminates the possibility of nearly all negligent discharges. I wouldn't want to carry a gun without a manual trigger safety.

Unless the safety does not block the firing pin, some guns may fire if dropped is dropped. I wonder if a P320 might go off under certain conditions when the safety is disengaged. Doubtful, but no one outside of SIG seems to be certain what the problem is with the guns.

I do not like manual safeties that require a separate operation for disengagement. I strongly prefer a grip safety.

One of ways that you can deal with the issue is to have serious criminal and civil penalties if you have a negligent discharge that injures someone or damages property that could have been prevented by the prudent use of a manual trigger safety.

Civil liability is brought about by civil suits, which Sig is facing now. Criminal penalties are defined in criminal law, as Mr. Baldwin is learning.

Edited to correct error.

 

[bannockburn]

someguy2800

I must say though I’ve never shot a P320. I picked one up at a gun show and dry fired it and I was shocked how light and short the trigger pull was for a gun with no manual safety or trigger safety.

That's pretty much what I thought the first time I looked at a SIG P365 when they first came out. The trigger was very light with a rather short take-up and reset. I checked the gun over and got concerned when I couldn't find any sort of safety on the gun. Now I liked how light and clean the trigger was but the lack of a thumb safety or a Glock-like safety trigger was a deal breaker for me!

Fast forward a few years and I'm looking at compact 9s and micro 9s and see that SIG has since added a frame mounted thumb safety to the P365X; and it's the micro 9 that I'm most interested in. Same decent trigger and with the safety, it's now a gun that I'm okay with. I liked it so much I picked up a SIG M18 because it has a manual safety as well. Both guns have been great and the safeties on both guns work perfectly every time I use them.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Unless the safety does not block the firing pin, some guns may fire if dropped is dropped.

Both the Sig P365 and the present version of the P320 have a striker block that is disengaged by when the trigger is depressed. I don't know about the P320, but the P365 "manual trigger safety" is technically a "sear block". When the P365 "sear block" is engaged, the trigger cannot rotate the striker safety lever far enough to depress the striker safety inward and the sear is also blocked from releasing the striker.

If the pistol is dropped directly onto the top of the slide with enough force that the momentum of the striker safety block could move it inward far enough to allow the striker to pass by, the striker would also need to be released at the same time in order for the pistol to fire. The momentum of the frame would also be pushing the sear into the striker, making it less likely to release on it's own. Maybe if the tolerances of the frame and slide rails were very, very sloppy, the frame could bounce against the slide and move the sear far enough away from the striker to release the striker and fire. It seems unlikely. But that is why we do the testing to make sure that we catch unforeseen problems.

I do not like manual safeties that require a separate operation for disengagement. I strongly prefer a grip safety.

I tend to dislike grip safeties as they are more prone to contamination issues that can prevent the gun from firing as well as being critical of how you grip the pistol. But I agree that there ought to be some sort of trigger safety. A dongle on the trigger is not adequate.

I would really like to know just what kind of testing Sig and other gun manufacturers perform to ensure that their guns are safe.

The SAAMI test specifications seem woefully inadequate. For instance, when they perform a drop test with the gun loaded, cocked, with manual safeties disengaged, they drop the gun from only a 12" height onto a rubber mat!

 

[Nuclear]

I shoot with people who compete typically 3 times a week, plus practicing. They lighten the triggers, shorten the take up and reset, you name it. The amount of drawing and holstering is orders of magnitude higher than police usage. They will let you know what guns work, which don’t, and which have enough problems they wouldn’t touch them. Of late, more and more 320s are showing up, but I haven’t heard of any issues with them.

Disclaimer, I have a Sig P320 that I have installed a lighter competition trigger into, and it hasn’t gone off by itself yet. Maybe it is just lulling me into a false sense of security before it tries to shoot me.

 

[SharpDog]

4.5 lbs is a little light, but in a proper holster, I would have no qualms.

Google Glock negligent discharge or 'Glock Leg'

Basically, if something is accessing the trigger when it is not supposed to be, things can go bang.

If you have a holster that properly covers the trigger and you exercise some prudence when reholstering you will be fine.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The amount of drawing and holstering is orders of magnitude higher than police usage. They will let you know what guns work, which don’t, and which have enough problems they wouldn’t touch them. Of late, more and more 320s are showing up, but I haven’t heard of any issues with them.

This is the often discounted value of competition.

In competition, the only goal is winning..there is very little brand loyalty unless you're a sponsored shooter. To that end they quickly and objectively determine which guns are reliable, accurate, and just plain work under hard use.

Hard use in competition is a great test of any platform. Competition shooters will run guns until they just fall apart to see how hard they can be pushed. The only "hard use" that even comes close to competition are range rental guns

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Of late, more and more 320s are showing up, but I haven’t heard of any issues with them.

From the analysis that I've seen performed on the revised P320, it would appear to be a safe design. However, I'd still like to see the actual testing that was performed on the P320. before Id completely trust it. Sig lost the benefit of the doubt when they released the P320 with drop safe issues.

What actually bothers me more about the P320 is that the striker assembly seems overly complicated, which could potentially result in a malfunction that prevented it from firing.

I also wonder what kind of testing has been performed to determine how susceptible the P320 is to contamination issues such as gunpowder residue, lint, and sand. Being striker fired I would think it would be less susceptible to contamination issues than a hammer fired pistol.

My father, who was a mechanical engineer, said that it is simple to make a complicated design that works well. But a great design is an elegantly simple design that gets the job done.

The P365 seems to be closer to an elegantly simple design that gets the job done. The P320 has a more complicated striker. The P365 has a simpler pivoting external extractor that is also safe to manually chamber. I seriously question whether the P320 is safe to manually chamber.

The next on my list of pistols to buy is a 10 mm, mainly for camping in bear country. I would seriously consider the Sig P320-XTEN. But the striker and extractor design bothers me. I would like to see a P365 based 10 MM with a 5" barrel. But I doubt that Sig is designing one for me anytime soon.

 

[JohnKSa]

The P365 has a simpler pivoting external extractor that is also safe to manually chamber.

It should be noted that you assert this in direct contradiction to the manufacturer's claim. You've made it clear that you don't believe them, but you don't get to make that decision for everyone. If you want to post this, you must qualify the claim by noting that you are stating your own opinion/conclusion and that it conflicts with the manufacturer's explicit statement that it is unacceptable in any SIG semi-automatic firearm and can cause parts breakage.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

It should be noted that you assert this in direct contradiction to the manufacturer's claim. You've made it clear that you don't believe them, but you don't get to make that decision for everyone. If you want to post this, you must qualify the claim by noting that you are stating your own opinion/conclusion and that it conflicts with the manufacturer's explicit statement that it is unacceptable in any SIG semi-automatic firearm and can cause parts breakage.

Not quite accurate. Sig recommended to NOT allow the slide to slam closed over the shell case rim. Sig FLATLY REFUSED to even say whether or not they actually did ANY testing whatsoever on manually chambering the P365. As such Sig has ZERO credibility! If Sig had actually claimed to have tested manually chambering the P365 and that they actually had extractor breakage, that would be an entirely different story.

I actually did perform testing where I allowed the slide to slam the extractor over the shell case rim 1,830 times WITHOUT any damage that could be seen under a 30X microscope. I provided test data. Sig refused to say whether or not they actually performed any testing. I would say that I have more credibility than Sig at this point. Do you have ANY test data from ANYWHERE that contradicts my test data? Show me a report from ANYONE that has had an extractor (New version) failure from manually chambering the P365 in this manner. Or even a report from someone that had an extractor break while manually chambering the new version of the extractor while allowing the slide to slam the extractor over the shell case rim. FYI, I performed testing on electromechanical devices for a living. This included UL safety testing. I know how to properly set up and perform a test.

As I have previously stated, even though I believe that the extractor will break from normal usage long before the extractor will break while it is slamming over the shell case rim, I do NOT recommend allowing the slide to slam the extractor over the shell case rim! There is no need for that kind of impact on the extractor. I instead recommend that you insert the cartridge into the firing chamber, ease the slide closed, then press the rear of the extractor inward so that the extractor claw is pivoted outward far enough to allow the shell case rim to pass by, allowing the recoil spring to return the slide into battery.

If I presented my test data in a courtroom and SIg REFUSED to provide any data, who do you think the judge or jury would believe?

 

[someguy2800]

Not quite accurate. Sig recommended to NOT allow the slide to slam closed over the shell case rim. Sig FLATLY REFUSED to even say whether or not they actually did ANY testing whatsoever on manually chambering the P365. As such Sig has ZERO credibility! If Sig had actually claimed to have tested manually chambering the P365 and that they actually had extractor breakage, that would be an entirely different story.

I actually did perform testing where I allowed the slide to slam the extractor over the shell case rim 1,830 times WITHOUT any damage that could be seen under a 30X microscope. I provided test data. Sig refused to say whether or not they actually performed any testing. I would say that I have more credibility than Sig at this point. Do you have ANY test data from ANYWHERE that contradicts my test data? Show me a report from ANYONE that has had an extractor (New version) failure from manually chambering the P365 in this manner. Or even a report from someone that had an extractor break while manually chambering the new version of the extractor while allowing the slide to slam the extractor over the shell case rim. FYI, I performed testing on electromechanical devices for a living. This included UL safety testing. I know how to properly set up and perform a test.

As I have previously stated, even though I believe that the extractor will break from normal usage long before the extractor will break while it is slamming over the shell case rim, I do NOT recommend allowing the slide to slam the extractor over the shell case rim! There is no need for that kind of impact on the extractor. I instead recommend that you insert the cartridge into the firing chamber, ease the slide closed, then press the rear of the extractor inward so that the extractor claw is pivoted outward far enough to allow the shell case rim to pass by, allowing the recoil spring to return the slide into battery.

If I presented my test data in a courtroom and SIg REFUSED to provide any data, who do you think the judge or jury would believe?

Cool that you tested it that extensively, I think my arm would give out lol.

My other hobby is building turbo bmw motors. My personal car I run 50 lbs of boost on a motor that was never designed to even have a turbo and I run it 3000 rpm over the factory rev limit. And this is on most factory components. Needless to say I don’t put all that much faith in what manufactures say something can or can’t do. Only testing finds out for real.