I'm sure there are many P320 pistols that have not yet failed. But there are a few that have.
I think that would be “but there a few that have been alleged to fail”. Or is there a case where the revised pistol has been proven to be at fault?
I'm sure there are many P320 pistols that have not yet failed. But there are a few that have.
There have been numerous credible reports of instances in which revised pistols have fired without the trigger being pulled and without indication of error caused by holster issues..I think that would be “but there a few that have been alleged to fail”. Or is there a case where the revised pistol has been proven to be at fault?
Thanks for the explanation. My perspective is a bit different. Note that I’m not saying that you are wrong. Just that my experience has been different and that leads me to different conclusions. I have four Sigs (2xP220, P239, P365) and they have all been flawless. My 365 has never had a failure of any kind.
A friend of mine has a Ruger that has had two firing pins break. Ruger CS has been really good about getting him new ones, and with the last one the CS guy said “yeah we got a bad batch some time back…”. He hasn’t liked the down time but overall he’s happy with Ruger and his gun. I agree with him. Like I say my 365 hasn’t had any issues, but if the firing pin broke and they sent me a new one I’d be happy. I don’t see a firing pin as a recall kind of thing. But if there were trigger issues, slide issues, or potential chamber issues then I’d expect a recall.
Then I'm assuming you don't give Glock a Pass when they've lied about fixes they've had to addressed over the years. They usually don't lie, they just never admit that there is an issue and fix it in production...like SIG did with their voluntary upgrade.
The one that stands out for me is when they claimed that the failure of Gen 3 .40 caliber Glocks with mounted weapon lights was due to magazine springs...but then addressed it (lack of flex in the frame) with the introduction of the Gen 4 guns
Its a .22 - Mark IV, the latest generation.What model ruger was that? There was another issue with the P365 at the same time. There was a spring or something that broke and rendered the trigger dead. As far as I know they were both dealt with a long time ago. I just don’t like the way that sig has tried to sidestep the issues.
I think that would be a waste of time. A sufficient number of tests encompassing a sufficient number of variables should address any intrinsic design issues. It would seem likely that SIG has done that. The remaining issue would be manufacturing process variations as they affect the design functionality, which could be more elusive and which would require testing numerous examples.
My 365 has never had a failure of any kind.
Maybe not yet. But have you tried to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity? Sometimes the stripper rail is so rough from the factory that it digs deep scratches into the brass shell cases and is extremely difficult to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity. My P365 was extremely difficult to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity, but it wasn't a problem with my new P365XL. Polishing the stripper rail cured the problem in my P365 and also made it even easier to retract the slide with my P365XL. The quality of Sig varies.
This video is worth watching. At around the 1:15 mark there is a clip from a police parking lot that shows a P320 fire in the holster. Both of the detective's hands were filled, so he was not touching the trigger.
The video is from 2021.
So no Sig 320's for me. It is just not worth the risk.
That firing in holster stuff probably had the trigger already partially pulled when reholstering and movement and or bumps set it off. The problem on Sig 320 is most likely the width of the trigger on the gun is more prone to getting rubbed on certain holsters when reholstering.
I would never bet my life on not having seen such an event.I need to see a test of a P320 unintentionally firing, outside of the holster, before I will believe that the safety mechanisms are inadequate.
EXACTLY! A video of a gun seemingly going off by itself doesn't mean that it wasn't operator error that caused the problem.
I wouldn't necessarily blame the holster either. It could be that the P320 trigger guard is NOT reasonably wide enough to protect the trigger. Or it could be that the trigger guard was wide enough, but the holster was either very poorly designed or perhaps it was not even designed for the Sig P320. Or perhaps it's even a foreign object inside the holster that partly depressed the trigger when the gun was holstered.
I need to see a test of a P320 unintentionally firing, outside of the holster, before I will believe that the safety mechanisms are inadequate. Although I do think that the P320 striker is overcomplicated.
I measured the trigger guard widths on my P365 and P365XL and they measured 0.3975" and 0.3985" respectively. The flat trigger measured 0.3595" wide. That amounts to the trigger guard extending past the trigger 0.017" on each side.
That begs the question: "How much wider than the trigger does the trigger guard need to be to reasonably protect the trigger from unintentional discharge?"
This would be a good time for everyone to evaluate the trigger guards on their pistols to determine if they provide sufficient protection and whether or not your holsters could rub against the triggers while reholstering your pistols.
Is your holster stiff enough to prevent trigger rub if something presses against your holster?
Does your holster protect the magazine release button from being unintentionally being depressed?
Does your holster have sufficient retention in a scuffle?
My Sig P365 holster did NOT have sufficient retention and my P365 fell out of the holster! I know it was a poor retention system because Sig redesigned it and no longer makes the holster that my P365 fell out of. I have the holster that replaced the old design and the new retention system is vastly superior to the old design.
I would never bet my life on not having seen such an event.
If a gun is that easy to actuate the trigger by something just rubbing against the side of it, then it either needs a manual safety or a trigger dongle in the center.
Unless the safety does not block the firing pin, some guns may fire if dropped is dropped. I wonder if a P320 might go off under certain conditions when the safety is disengaged. Doubtful, but no one outside of SIG seems to be certain what the problem is with the guns.A manual trigger safety that is engaged eliminates the possibility of nearly all negligent discharges. I wouldn't want to carry a gun without a manual trigger safety.
Civil liability is brought about by civil suits, which Sig is facing now. Criminal penalties are defined in criminal law, as Mr. Baldwin is learning.One of ways that you can deal with the issue is to have serious criminal and civil penalties if you have a negligent discharge that injures someone or damages property that could have been prevented by the prudent use of a manual trigger safety.
I must say though I’ve never shot a P320. I picked one up at a gun show and dry fired it and I was shocked how light and short the trigger pull was for a gun with no manual safety or trigger safety.
Unless the safety does not block the firing pin, some guns may fire if dropped is dropped.
I do not like manual safeties that require a separate operation for disengagement. I strongly prefer a grip safety.
This is the often discounted value of competition.The amount of drawing and holstering is orders of magnitude higher than police usage. They will let you know what guns work, which don’t, and which have enough problems they wouldn’t touch them. Of late, more and more 320s are showing up, but I haven’t heard of any issues with them.
Of late, more and more 320s are showing up, but I haven’t heard of any issues with them.
It should be noted that you assert this in direct contradiction to the manufacturer's claim. You've made it clear that you don't believe them, but you don't get to make that decision for everyone. If you want to post this, you must qualify the claim by noting that you are stating your own opinion/conclusion and that it conflicts with the manufacturer's explicit statement that it is unacceptable in any SIG semi-automatic firearm and can cause parts breakage.The P365 has a simpler pivoting external extractor that is also safe to manually chamber.
It should be noted that you assert this in direct contradiction to the manufacturer's claim. You've made it clear that you don't believe them, but you don't get to make that decision for everyone. If you want to post this, you must qualify the claim by noting that you are stating your own opinion/conclusion and that it conflicts with the manufacturer's explicit statement that it is unacceptable in any SIG semi-automatic firearm and can cause parts breakage.
Not quite accurate. Sig recommended to NOT allow the slide to slam closed over the shell case rim. Sig FLATLY REFUSED to even say whether or not they actually did ANY testing whatsoever on manually chambering the P365. As such Sig has ZERO credibility! If Sig had actually claimed to have tested manually chambering the P365 and that they actually had extractor breakage, that would be an entirely different story.
I actually did perform testing where I allowed the slide to slam the extractor over the shell case rim 1,830 times WITHOUT any damage that could be seen under a 30X microscope. I provided test data. Sig refused to say whether or not they actually performed any testing. I would say that I have more credibility than Sig at this point. Do you have ANY test data from ANYWHERE that contradicts my test data? Show me a report from ANYONE that has had an extractor (New version) failure from manually chambering the P365 in this manner. Or even a report from someone that had an extractor break while manually chambering the new version of the extractor while allowing the slide to slam the extractor over the shell case rim. FYI, I performed testing on electromechanical devices for a living. This included UL safety testing. I know how to properly set up and perform a test.
As I have previously stated, even though I believe that the extractor will break from normal usage long before the extractor will break while it is slamming over the shell case rim, I do NOT recommend allowing the slide to slam the extractor over the shell case rim! There is no need for that kind of impact on the extractor. I instead recommend that you insert the cartridge into the firing chamber, ease the slide closed, then press the rear of the extractor inward so that the extractor claw is pivoted outward far enough to allow the shell case rim to pass by, allowing the recoil spring to return the slide into battery.
If I presented my test data in a courtroom and SIg REFUSED to provide any data, who do you think the judge or jury would believe?