Would You Do It?

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I don't know what I would do but I do know in that situation if you are trying to help and have a gun in your hand that you are likely to get shot by the cops when they bust in.
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Dan McKown thought that at Tacoma Mall in WA, so he holstered his gun, stood up from behind cover, and addressed the shooter verbally, and then was shot multiple times and is now a life long cripple. He lay there bleeding for the better part of a half hour, IIRC, maybe longer, waiting for the cops to burst in and save the day, or somebody to drag him out.
 
I have not read each post, so I'll answer the OP.

I think if myself as more of the hornet type. I'll defend myself and my family first and foremost. If I am sure they are safe, I might engage an active shooter if it would be reasonable to do so, given the circumstances.
I've put myself in harms way and would do so again, but I'm not going to volunteer for a suicide mission.
 
I'm a high school teacher, and a CCW permit holder. I cannot carry at work, as our Board does not allow it. After Columbine, I invested a lot of thought and self-reflection in preparation for a similar attack on my campus. My children are grown and on their own, my wife is self-sufficient with her own teaching career established, I'm a former LEO, and some of us are just wired differently. If students were being shot in my vicinity, I'm convinced I'd do my best to take out the shooter any way I could. Out of the hundred or so teachers at my school, there are probably 4-5 that would react the same way.

In a mall, with my CCW, chances are high that I would move with caution toward the gunfire. If I can close to what appears to me to be a reasonable shot while the threat is ongoing, I'll take the shot. I don't expect or encourage others to do the same, look down on people who would react differently, or give a hoot about other people's opinions of the wisdom of my course of action.
 
Retired LEO,what do you think

I still have 'most' of my reactions and I still shoot [ actually more now ] so I am sure that AFTER all my loved ones were safe = yes.

But if there were no exit other than through the active shooter [ key word is ACTIVE ] then I would do whatever needs be to stop the threat.

I have been a strong proponent of actually practicing the head shot under difficult situations as I believe that it might be needed while I was an LEO.

I saw that it is THE hardest shot under stress,and I do not make the statement lightly.

But all I will have is a good tactical pistol [ or 2 ] and my skills to get me and my loved ones out alive.

I do not practice with a 'pocket' pistol unless its a BUG,that being the case the least I would have is a Glock 23 in .40 S&W with 2 spare mags [ in a shopping mall etc,that is how I travel ] and a BUG ,in at least a snub .38 version.

The primary idea is to EVADE and escape if at ALL possible and I mean RUN even if your under fire.

If that is not possible,then you have the option of dying on your knees or making a stand.
 
While we're all here arguing shoot or no shoot, hunt or no hunt...

http://news.yahoo.com/why-more-people-didnt-die-clackamas-mall-shooting-225031988.html

Why more people didn't die in Clackamas mall shooting
Improved police practices and greater public awareness about what to do in an 'active shooter scenario' may have limited casualties during the Clackamas mall shooting Tuesday in Portland, Ore.

Citizens' coolheadedness and individual preparation for coping with gunfire in public settings may have curtailed the casualty count from Tuesday's shooting at a Portland, Ore., shopping mall, law officers suggested on the day after the tragedy.
Two people died and one was critically wounded before the shooter, 22-year-old Jacob Tyler Roberts of Portland, killed himself a few minutes after running into the food court at the Clackamas Town Center mall. Officials say Mr. Roberts, wearing camouflage and a white hockey mask, had methodically fired "multiple" rounds from an assault-style rifle at random shoppers.
Most of the 10,000 Christmas shoppers at the mall appeared nearly as ready and able as police to deal with a gunman appearing suddenly in their midst, Clackamas County Sheriff Craig Roberts said on Wednesday.
"Many people have asked me why there were so few victims during this incident," said Sheriff Roberts. He listed the fact that Mr. Roberts's AR-15 semiautomatic rifle intermittently jammed and noted a well-practiced mall lockdown procedure. But he also credited "10,000 people in the mall who at one time kept a level head, got themselves out of the mall, helped others get out, secured themselves in stores.… It was really about a whole group of people coming together to make a difference."
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There's more at the article site. But in the meantime, the primary point comes back to EVERYONE taking personal responsibility for their own survival. Who knows...maybe CCW's go up or maybe not. But it's not the only solution or the only part of the equation.
 
Sometimes, maybe most times, the thing to do is work with others to get people to safety either outside the mall or locked down in stores out of sight. If the shooter doesn't have any targets, there's no mass shooting. All the while, you can also keep eyes and ears open in case he approaches. If so, then execute whatever your plan is for the situation.

Here's what I posted on the other thread just a bit ago.

http://news.yahoo.com/why-more-people-didnt-die-clackamas-mall-shooting-225031988.html

Why more people didn't die in Clackamas mall shooting
Improved police practices and greater public awareness about what to do in an 'active shooter scenario' may have limited casualties during the Clackamas mall shooting Tuesday in Portland, Ore.

Citizens' coolheadedness and individual preparation for coping with gunfire in public settings may have curtailed the casualty count from Tuesday's shooting at a Portland, Ore., shopping mall, law officers suggested on the day after the tragedy.
Two people died and one was critically wounded before the shooter, 22-year-old Jacob Tyler Roberts of Portland, killed himself a few minutes after running into the food court at the Clackamas Town Center mall. Officials say Mr. Roberts, wearing camouflage and a white hockey mask, had methodically fired "multiple" rounds from an assault-style rifle at random shoppers.
Most of the 10,000 Christmas shoppers at the mall appeared nearly as ready and able as police to deal with a gunman appearing suddenly in their midst, Clackamas County Sheriff Craig Roberts said on Wednesday.
"Many people have asked me why there were so few victims during this incident," said Sheriff Roberts. He listed the fact that Mr. Roberts's AR-15 semiautomatic rifle intermittently jammed and noted a well-practiced mall lockdown procedure. But he also credited "10,000 people in the mall who at one time kept a level head, got themselves out of the mall, helped others get out, secured themselves in stores.… It was really about a whole group of people coming together to make a difference."
Click to expand...
 
About 30 minutes searching and reading on Google.

http://dustinsgunblog.blogspot.com/2008/05/nv-mass-shooting-stopped-by-ccw-permit.html

http://citizensvoice.com/news/police-plymouth-shooter-wasn-t-provoked-1.1371854

http://www.cardenchronicles.com/2009/01/work-place-shooting-stopped-by.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting
2002: armed students subdue mass-murderer -- 3 dead.
2007: no armed students due to rules to stop mass-murderer-- 32 dead.
(Virginia Tech)

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/cr...-shootings-one-widely-known-the-other-ignored

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/to...-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Life_Church_(Colorado_Springs,_Colorado)

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/8290

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...dnt-play-a-role-in-giffords-case-think-again/
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/transcript/amazing-stories-heroism-emerge-tucson-tragedy

Pops
 
Example of one person stopping a mass shooting.

http://www.davekopel.com/2a/othwr/principal&gun.htm

It had not turned into a mass shooting yet but would have if not stopped.

Now for me, The wife and I discussed this last night after the story broke. I will first attend to my wife and family and friends. Get them out first. If at any time the shooter looked as if he was targeting me or anyone around me I would fire to provide cover at minimum. Would I go back and engage, probably not.
 
There was an armed CHL individual in the mall but he did not engage the shooter.
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Of ten thousand people in the mall at the time, I'm sure there was more than one. However, it does indeed sound as though the outcome could not have been any better.

In Florida, which is predicted to hit a record one million active-status licenses by the middle of next week, ten thousand people would likely include 300 or more licensees.
 
Mmm. After reading the rules for posting in this sub-forum I see that I must temper my response greatly.

As a human being I would find it difficult to "run away or hide" and hope that nothing bad happens to me.

As a human being I would find it difficult to look in the mirror the next morning if I had done nothing to try to stop such evil from running it's own course.

I am always armed and the weapon isn't just to protect something as limited as me and mine along. What if my next door neighbors wife is killed there and I ran away? One of his daughters? Maybe your wife/daughter?

I think that part of what is wrong with this society today is lack of responsibility in individuals. Criminals (elected and otherwise) love it, they don't have to hardly worry about someone interferring with their crimes.

Might I get killed? Either by the shooter or the responding police? Of course, it could happen and I would really prefer it didn't. Life is scary and you're pretty much promised to not exit it alive. Courage is scary. Facing evil is really scary.

In a situation where you don't know who's the bad guy/good guy, like a man/man fight I'll stay back. But an active shooter situation in a mall is a no brainer.

In the end, it doesn't matter where you go, how much you lie to yourself, whereever you go there is one person you can't get away from: you.

Just my two pennies. Now where'd that Nomex suit get to . . .


Cat
 
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The OP has laid out a good approach. Get yourself and others to safety.

I will add that the only time to engage a shooter is when your life or the life of those with you is in danger. If the shooter is within close range when they open fire it may be best to engage them to protect your life and the lives of those around you, but it is not responsible to abandon people to go hunting for the shooter when you could have helped them escape safely.
 
hso,

You are quite correct in that. If the shooter is at the far end of the mall, I'm not gonna go looking for him. Especially if I have loved ones with me. I could have been more clear on some of this. These situations are very tough.

The Tacoma Mall shooting hit home for me as I'm from there. I could have been there during the attack. Police response time in Portland was much faster than Tacoma.

Nonetheless, under the right circumstances I will do my best to shoot the insane man to the ground, and so should all other armed, responsible adults.


Cat
 
Cat, I will say upfront that I have no formal security or defense training. I like listening and learning from those that do which is why I started this discussion.
Your response is admirable on one level, but it seems to me that you have to keep justice and being your brother's keeper seperate and distinct. As I said originally, what to do if the threat becomes, or is eminent, is a completely different discussion.

It seems to me that guilt is more likely to be caused by making a bad decision when under pressure because of a failure to mentally prepare yourself for such an incident before it happens.

If you are trained for interdiction, you are an exception to the rule and know who you are. The majority of us are not prepared for that action and statisticly probably increase the chances of a worse outcome by seeking out the shooter to attempt to neutralize it, or THEM for all you know.

Another point regarding feeling guilty for not taking aggressive action against the shooter. How much guilt would you feel if your actions distract a sworn responder and because he was focused, even momentarily, on you... the bad guy takes that instant to take him out. How are you going to explain to his partner that you were only trying to help . How are you going to sleep at night after seeing his family on the news knowing that your actions, no matter how well intended, compromised his or her actions with tragic results.
If your ego is writing checks that somebody else has to pay, bad things are going to happen. I think your heart is in the right place.
 
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Ragnar Danneskjold said:
Yes I absolutely would, as long as I could identify the wrong-doer. And in a mass shooting, I imagine that would be pretty easy. Also, I do not have a family at all, so getting them to safety is a total non-issue for me.

No, a CPL doesn't make you a police officer.
Good thing that's completely irrelevant since stopping a mass shooter isn't just enforcing laws and processing criminal cases. It's exercise your humanity. It's taking stock of your own moral compass and values, and making the determination that the lives of innocent people might just be more important than a possible risk to yourself. Being able to act in ways that put ourselves in danger but protect strangers is one of the things that makes us more than just primates who walk on two legs. It's that inherently self-less and instinctually-irrational act that makes being a human something special. Animals preserve themselves. Animals protect their young. Humans have compassion. I choose to act humanely and not just with instinctual self-preservation. It's not the CPL that enables me, though my state law does state that firearms are NOT just for self-defense. It's my ethics that drive my actions. It's not being a cop. It's not being Rambo. It's not taking the law into my own hands.

It's seeing "Here is a problem. I have the ability to solve it or to walk away and let strangers suffer". I choose to attempt to solve it.
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SharpsDressedMan said:
Why not? Save lives, be a hero, and maybe even live though it? If you die, trying to stop a killer, would there be a better way to die? Besides, after carrying a gun most my life, and practicing all my life, I'd be embarassed if I DIDN'T do something. Being a "protector" is what I was born to do.
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Well said gentleman.
 
I just posted this in another forum on the subject: (no, I haven't read anything but the OP yet)


Actively seeking out and engaging the shooter would bring serious risks with it. You might be seen as a shooter/one of the shooters, and be injured/killed yourself by another good guy. You might fail and get injured/killed you otherwise would not have. You might injure/kill another good guy who was going after the shooter(s).

I won't say that going after the shooter is wrong, but these risks must be taken very seriously.

Probably, generally, taking cover wherever you are and only engaging the shooter(s) if/when they come to your location is going to be the preferred course of action. Example: If you are in a classroom, stay in that classroom, take the best position that you can, and tell the other people in that room what you are doing, and what you need them to do (not get in front of you/between you and the shooter if they come in)



Unless I had family elsewhere in the building or something, I would probably take my own advice and stay put and be ready to engage somebody that showed up in my 'lane'. I assume that I would never be able to know exactly what, or who, was out there, and there would just be way too much confusion and panic all the way around
 
Very true. Sometimes doing the right thing might involve some very bad things happening to you. Just like when someone with a wife/husband and kids decides to join the military, or become a firefighter, or any number of other inherently dangerous things.

The cops isn't a cop until after he makes the decision to put his life on the line and join.
The firefighter isn't actually a firefighter until after he makes the decision to go into burning buildings to save lives and joins a department.
The soldier isn't actually a soldier until after he's made the decision to swear the oath.

They're all just civilians until after they actually sign up. The badge or uniform come later. But the key is they make the decision to risk their lives before they actually hold the position or have any authority. Which makes it no different than when someone who remains a civilian makes the same decision to risk their life. Does a cops wife not really lose her husband if he's shot on duty? Does the badge change anything? No, it doesn't.

In the end, they're all just people making the decision to consciously put their own lives on the line for strangers, knowing full well it may mean losing everything. The fact that they made that decision by swearing an oath and a civilian might have to make that decision under fire on the scene makes no difference. Too many people have a "someone else will solve the problem, I'm in this for myself and mine, that's it" mentality. Thankfully not all. Some who decide to do the right thing and help their fellow man do so by swearing oaths and taking certain jobs. Others remain civilians and must make that call in the blink of an eye. But cop/firefighter/soldier or not, they're the kind of people who take helping others, even in the face of death, seriously. That's a good thing.
 
To add to this topic, when I walk into malls I generally make it habit to locate a store directory and hopefully find a printed directory to take with me. Aside from it obviously helping me to find whatever store I'm looking for, it allows me to figure out where I am in an emergency and to locate exits if I need to get out quick. This is especially important if I'm in a mall that I'm not familiar with.

Also, if whomever I'm with decides to go off on their own and we decide to meet up later, it makes it easier to locate them, too, rather than wandering aimlessly around the mall.

In the event you have to dial 911 to report an emergency, such as this active shooter, it may help to tell the dispatcher what major store you're closest to as arriving units (especially from outside jurisdictions) may not know what entrance to use to get to The Gap since that's where you last saw the suspect. Having a map in your back pocket, as simple as it seems, may wind up being that small part of getting you out of a life threatening emergency.
 
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I haven't read through the other posts yet, but here's what I can say to the original question:

I work in law enforcement, and have been training for a decade to counter active shooters in the real world. To officers on the street these days it is most definitely a real threat that we may someday face. Being that I work in Colorado, we seem to have a disproportionate number of these shootings for some odd reason (Columbine, Safeway, Platte Canyon, Aurora Theater, etc).

Anyway, my first priority is always my family. I'm not apologetic about that fact. If I've got my people with me when an active shooting starts, saving them is my primary function. Whether that means sneaking them out the back, pointing them in the right direction, shooting my way through the bad guy, or providing armed cover for them while they take a safe position, my goal is still their safety, first and foremost.

Once my people are in relative safety, I'm going hunting. There's no way in good conscience that I could allow some psychopath to kill innocent people without acting. I'm armed when I'm out, and I'm plenty capable, trained, and experienced to take on such a task. It's an ugly task, and it is potentially a very tough and dangerous tactical situation to be in if I'm just carrying my CCW gun, and a bad guy is armed to the teeth for a mass shooting. But, I hate those types of cowards, and I've built a career around protecting the weak from the predators... I'd pursue that predator to the best of my ability.

As a very serious word of caution, should any of you ever find yourself in such a dire situation, please be very aware of the fact that the bullet you take could easily come from a responding officer. When we move in on an active shooter we move in fast and hard, because of the fact that lives are being lost with every second of delay. In doing so it could be easy to mistake an armed and civilian-clothed citizen (or even an off-duty officer) for a suspect. If you ever find yourself in such a scenario it will be absolutely paramount that you keep your head on a swivel, stay mindful of the changing environment, and don't give responding officers ANY opportunity to mistake you for a bad guy. In other words, if you suddenly hear a command of "drop the gun", you better realize that your life may hang in the balance depending on your response to that command. We just had a class on this issue recently, and it is truly sad to hear about the off-duty police officers who have been accidentally killed over the years as a result of mistaken identity during a critical incident. It can happen to you if you're in such a situation and aren't aware of that threat.

I have a badge with me when I'm off-duty, and I'm still very concerned with the sad reality that friendly fire may be the greatest threat I face should I ever be required to use my gun in a public situation. For my part of it, I'd probably try to stay holstered whenever I could, especially if I knew that responding on-duty officers were making an approach. Anyway, sorry to jack the thread a bit, but that's something everyone should consider if they are taking the time to consider how they'd respond to this type of scenario.
 
The risk of friendly fire is tremendous and not to be taken lightly. It's a tragedy whenever an off duty officer or anyone else gets hurt or killed while trying to do the right thing. But it's still the right thing. Imagine a world if everyone threw their hands up and thought "the risk is too great, I'm going home" when faced with danger to others. We've never seen evil on a level that would create.
 
So imagine you're at the mall by yourself. You're not married, no kids, etc. No family issues. The shooter is 50 feet in front of you and the exit is 50 feet behind you. You watch the shooter starting killing strangers.

Leave or attack?
 
Dan McKown thought that at Tacoma Mall in WA, so he holstered his gun, stood up from behind cover, and addressed the shooter verbally, and then was shot multiple times and is now a life long cripple.
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Where did you get that information? I've never read that he was worried about getting shot by LEOs. He did give a warning--a totally pointless one--and did get shot. The moral is, as Tuco said, if you're going to shoot shoot, don't talk. Words of warning are highly questionable in those circumstances.
 
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