Zumboing David Petzal

Status
Not open for further replies.
Petzal said today
"but nowhere in it did I endorse the ban, as some are claiming."

On page 26 of the June 1994 issue Of Field and Stream Petzal said:

If you are a gun owner who is looking for the middle ground, it is very hard to argue against legislation such as this. Senator Feinstein, it seems, has made every effort to prescribe "assault weapons" and protect "legitimate firearms."

Great, let us not hoist him upon his own petard lest the entire gun industry come crashing down upon itself. :what: The reason that we should hold off is because a Petzal apologist is going to show us a written passage where the AWB-endorsing, Feinstein-coddling Petzal recants his support of same. Show us where he CHANGED his position of endangering our freedom and the future of our country. Please, show us. With 1022 looming over our necks should we be “trusting” and wait to see if this self-incriminated traitor to our cause decides to zumbo us or not? Do you have that kind of trust? You WANT this hack to speak on your behalf in regards to the 2nd? Why? Because there is not a more willing , able correspondent to step up to the plate and support our cause 100%? Please... Because the entire gun industry will collapse if the cornerstones of Mssrs. Zumbo & Petzal are tossed out on their Brady Bunch butts? Great! Embrace them. Carry on. Show us a recant to his traitorous words or in the stead, I’ll fight with those who would stand beside me while retching on the overwhelming, vile stench of apologists… With or against. Black or white. It has come to that. Grey dooms us all... Forever.
 
I think to some extent, David Petzal, like Zumbo, has reached a point where his celebrity status has skewed his thinking, to the point of becoming insulated from the rest of the regular gunowners in America. He has lost his way, and I for one am not paying for him to find it. I have no plans to buy anything featuring him or Zumbo. The hunting community paved their roads to fame, and at the very least, there was no consideration on their part for taking responsibility for their comments. Glib and famous, apology or not, equals smug and arrogant, not to mention damaging to those who cherish 2nd Amendment rights. If they want to be elitist gigalos, let somone else pay their room and board. I'm really fed up this time...when gun writers shoot themselves AND us in the foot. We don't need this kind of crap.
 
Meh, I've had that useless quisling written off for years now. Petzal is the epitome of Fudd.
 
Compromise

If I understand what I read of the "Petzal Papers" of 1994, his assertion was that a) legislation is inevitable, b) the current plans are horrific, c) we can mitigate this if we "allow" Feinstein to specify expressly that OUR hunting guns are safe and itemize the exclusions along with the bad stuff.

A review of his postings in the current matter does little to encourage.

I'm something of a reactionary myself.

When DOS came out, I stayed with CP/M as long as I could. When Windows came out, I stayed with DOS as long as I could. When Windows 95 came out, I stayed with Windows 3.1 as long as I could. And so on and so on.

I drive a stick shift. Always have. Insist on it, actually.

I tend, with any "improvement" in technology, to lag behind the curve, to stick with what's tried and true. Stuff I can rely on. Never buy version 1.0 of anything.

I resist change. (Irony: I'm a software/firmware engineer.)

On the other side of this coin, I've found myself having to drag customers kicking and screaming from the ancient systems they use into the merely obsolete systems I use.

I think it's fair to say I understand both sides of the "resistance to change" issue.

Hunting equipment has come a long way since I was a cave man:
  • Large heavy rocks
  • Stone axes & knives
  • Spears
  • Bow & arrow
  • Muskets
  • Black powder rifles
  • Smokeless cartridge rifles
  • Repeating rifles
  • Self loading repeaters
  • High capacity repeaters
  • Rifles with long range optics
  • . . . and so on
In parallel with the improvements in the weapons themselves there have been improvements in ergonomics and materials.

(Interestingly, this progression closely resembles another: the evolution of weapons of war and of defense.)

One may choose to plant a flag at any point on that scale and declare "nothing later than this is righteous for hunting." And that's fine, if you have your own private game preserve.

And if this was the entire scope of the discussion, that would be fine.

It's not.

Man has used these same tools not only to feed himself, but to wage war and to defend himself from predation.

[There's a lengthy discussion that goes here about tyrants and slavery and disarmament, but let us take that as read.]

America is unique among nations in that its founders recognized that government must have checks against it and, moreover, that these checks necessarily be manifested as an armed population.

Let us not speculate here why the government of this nation would want its population completely disarmed in a world where predation among men and nations continues to flourish. Suffice it to say that such is egregious folly.

Let us interest ourselves, then, with the methods of this madness.

What drives the reluctance to change? It can be argued that it is a form of fear. This idea, however, is only as useful as it predicts behavior.

If fear is involved, can it be used as a tool? Can it be amplified and directed? Yes, it can. Fear tends to cloud judgement, making misdirection easier.
In order to gain substantial support for disarmament -- or at least neutralize resistance to it -- let us then threaten calamity (removal of all self loading repeaters) and offer to mitigate this to seem to protect a subset embraced by a large population who resist change. Point out that the weapons to be restricted are the very ones this resistant population already tend to resist. Regret that such restriction must cause discomfort to the resistant group, and assure them that, with their support for the compromise, their preferred selections will go unmolested.

Once the first precedent for sweeping restrictions has been established, then greater restrictions will be more easily imposed.

Eventually, total disarmament can be achieved.

Well, it seems that was working for them in 1994.

Unhappily, the perception among the hunters seems to be that this compromise worked for them once; they should stick with the proven game plan. What emerges is the belief that hunting has been "legitimized" as the "standard" for gun ownership.

They were lied to then, they're being lied to now.

Petzal was evidently swayed by his combined fears and the lies he was given. His perception has apparently not extended far enough to realize the danger of pursuing this false compromise, and he believes that what "worked" before will work again, with hunting as the annointed standard bearer for righteousness in firearms.

Truth is our only weapon.

Truth spoken shrilly and stridently will largely go unheard.

Truth spoken with passion can be heard.

Truth spoken without rancor can be heard.

Those who seek to disarm have used fear to their advantage. So be it.

There is much to fear. Eventually, having removed the most militarily useful weapons, those who disarm will seek to eradicate the rest, and hunting will finally be the purview only of the rich and privileged.

Not only will the population no longer be able to defend itself in person and community, the shooting sports and traditions will be gone.

Speak the truth to these, our brothers in this cause.

Speak to them with passion, but without rancor.

Illuminate for them the larger danger.

Promise to stand by them.

No compromise.
 
You know, I think this Zumbo inspired witch-hunt is a GOOD thing. We've needed to do this for a while. A good scare might be what some of these people need. They can say what they please in their magazine articles... it's their first amendment rights after all. When it comes down to it though, they need to be accountable for what they say. With a possible fight against AWBII coming down the pipe, we need to clean house.

Frankly, I don't give a crap if Zumbo was the best hunter in history. He was a hunter and not a gun owner. He sold us out. The guy was a writer for a hunting rag, not the original transcriptor of the Rosetta Stone. He got fired, they'll get another writer to replace him. Same thing with whoever we go after next. The difference is, the next person, even if they have a philosophical disagreement with our side, will shut up about it if they want to keep their job.
 
"When the only tool you have is a hammer....you tend to think that every problem is a nail". Petzel and Zumbo are examples of one side of the spectrum....Rambo's and Mall Ninja's are the other. Both sides believed their firearm of choice was the answer to everyones needs. Both sides need to get a long over due education and start working together.
 
Last edited:
Some of you are saying, lets not go after petzal,that will just give the anti-gun crowd more ammo:fire: You:cuss: are pissing me off!
You just dont get it,THEY DONT GIVE A S__T ABOUT US,THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT HUNTING.He does not give a crap if they ban said rifles because it will not affect him in any way:banghead: You stand on your side and I will stand on mine.DOWN WITH PETZAL
 
I used to read Petzal's articles in F&S during the early '90s, and although he has a lot to say about scopes, bolt-action rifles, and hunting, he has nearly NO credibility with me concerning the 2nd Amendment. Every article he wrote about gun control during that period was concerned solely with the question of how should hunters combat legislation, specifically gun control, such that they may continue to hunt? Granted, he writes for a magazine that hunters read, and so you could argue that he was writing for his target audience in that regard. Hovever, instead of say, actually going hunting with an "assault rifle" and writing a serious article informing hunters about what was good or bad about said rifle, he simply wrapped them in a blanket of "all these guns are bad, because the TV news told me so, and that's why hunters should support banning them." In other words, instead of actually doing what a journalist of hunting does, namely, find things out for themselves on hunting trips and then writing the article, David E. Petzal is very much in the "CNN said it's evil and unfit for hunting. My work here is done!" mode. At least, that's the way he was in 1994.
 
Last edited:
Deception, Half-truths and Ignorance.

Deception and half-truths have prevailed in each instance that the “powers-that-be” want to ban evil black guns. I recall back in the 1990s, the Michigan State Police developed a video for television through which they intended to show the total devastation an AR possesses. They stacked about 45 cinder blocks loosely as a wall, stood back and fired on them from about 40 feet. Of course, the wall came tumbling down.

When confronted by a pro-AR group as to why they used loose cinder block instead of a genuine wall, and why they didn’t then stand 15 feet away, they retorted, “We can’t do that, the bullets would bounce off the wall and kill us!” More deception of the evil black guns.
 
Either you can continue to castigate every member of our industry that doesn't see things your way, or you can take that anger and focus it on the true enemy. The industry got the message.

Sorry man...In my view, any spokesperson related to the firearms industry who thinks that one class of guns is more "legitamate" than another - or one that would label a person as evil based on his choice of weaponry...

IS counted as a "true enemy"

You fear that by "Zumboing" the elitists, the whole house will come crashing down? Well, here's what I fear:

We let the Zumbos and the Petzal's poison people's minds with their elitist garbage, turning more and more people against "those neo-military loons with their evil black rifles and terrorist Commie rifles." Then such "assault" weapons are banned.

Having used the anti-2A sportsmen for their purpose, the gun grabbers then throw THEM under the bus and ban their "sniper" rifles, et cetera.

Being able to tell them "I TOLD YOU SO" will be cold comfort when all guns are banned...:(

You know what? I don't hunt. I don't think I have it in me, unless it was for survival.

But at the same time, I don't go around calling hunters "bloodthirsty savages that make it look like all gun owners just HAVE to go out an kill SOMEthing!" It's a tradition loved by many people, and I support their right to do so!

See? A condition of forgiving Zumbo would NOT be having him hunt with an AR. Or even SHOOT an AR! Unless he WANTS to. For him to realize and say that AR owners aren't Rambo and AK owners aren't Bin Laden would be enough.

Cause guess what? For all my anger at Zumbo for his comments, *I* don't own an AR either, and don't really want one!

Nobody (in their right mind) is trying to FORCE people to use and do things that they don't WANT to. But it's grossly irresponsible to not support the RIGHTS of people just because you don't want a part of it.
 
I'm unconvinced Petzel is anything but a carbon copy of Zumbo. Seems pretty clear their public statements color them as less than 100% in support of the 2nd.

Zumbo flew his bi-plane into the mountain single-handedly. We, as gun owners, have nothing to be ashamed of in discussing his lack of flying skills and pointing that out to his employers. Now, in defense of his pal, Petzel is fronting a faulty defense for Zumbo’s flight plan and shaking his finger at those of us that took exception to it. Shame of him too. I’ll let others on this forum split PC-hairs as to Petzel’s comments in ’94 but he looks, quacks and thinks like the same breed of duck as Zumbo to me.

If there is a silver lining to this cloud it’s that these two men have exposed a glaring lack of understanding within our midst concerning what the 2nd is about, and more disturbingly, the willingness of a certain slice of the broader group of shooting enthusiasts to sacrifice another sector in an act of naked self-interest. Perhaps their comments and our reaction to those comments will help people who don’t understand the 2nd, our POV regarding military style rifles and the definition of solidarity, re-educate themselves even if these two experts-in-their-own-minds get canned in the process.

We need not be ashamed of our anger or our reaction to the public statements made by these two men or the forums or the magazines that give them a voice before the whole nation. After all is said and done, Petzel, Zumbo, F&S and OL are in operation to make a buck. We gun owners don’t owe them a pulpit or a living other than what they can earn through their own efforts in salesmanship and consumer acceptance. I’m unprepared to accept a POV that damages my ability to own or use any legal product I chose just to secure someone or some company their next corporate hunt & a payment on their SUV or a safer future in publishing & a bump in circulation.

My question: Is Petzel going down or not?

Best,

S-
 
My question: Is Petzel going down or not?

Yes. But only if everyone who posts on THR send an e-mail or phone call (or both) to F&S and, most importantly to Petzal's commercial SPONSORS demanding his immediate retirement. And, we each have to get other's to act with us.

I don't read F&S. Can someone post a list of his sponsors (with e-mail addresses). Swarovski is one I believe.
 
.

.


But that all the Keyboard Death Squads here and elsewhere went after Nancy Pelosi, Charles Schumer and their ilk with the same single-minded purpose!

The irony here, lost on virtually all, is that you now, 12½ years later, are demanding Petzal's head on a mounted bayonet… if he and Zumbo are uneducated as the the intent and meaning of the Second Amendment, and the inherent identical functions of the Remington Model 7400 and the AR15, then we have been no less ignorant of how the "fur and feather" folk view the pursuits of the "pure shooters" and "gun-owners."

Is it that Zumbo and Petzal are "easy targets," while Schumer, Pelosi, Clinton, Kerry, Kennedy (both of'em!), Feinstein, Boxer, Lautenberg, Menendez et al, seem impregnable?
 
The irony here, lost on virtually all, is that you now, 12½ years later, are demanding Petzal's head on a mounted bayonet…
This is the first I've heard about Mr. P's antigun stance. Did you know he was an anti?
...if he and Zumbo are uneducated as the the intent and meaning of the Second Amendment, and the inherent identical functions of the Remington Model 7400 and the AR15
No, no and no. They are both quite aware of the intent and meaning, in addition to the form and function of various weapon platforms. With that knowledge in hand they then CHOSE to PRINT anti gun rhetoric. There's your "irony."
Is it that Zumbo and Petzal are "easy targets," while Schumer, Pelosi, Clinton, Kerry, Kennedy (both of'em!), Feinstein, Boxer, Lautenberg, Menendez et al, seem impregnable?
When did they turn on their own? Seems to me that they have been steadfast in their antigun cause. They undoubtably will welcome Z&P back with kudos and a job well done!

Any guesses as to the date of the Petzal AR-10 hog hunt? Hmmm? The light of truth has the roaches scurrying. Good.
 
My blog message is gone from early this morning on F&S

The message that I wrote on Petzel's blog this morning is gone.I said something along the lines that I was going to cancel my subscription to F&S.Also another message from another guy stating that he had counted at least a hundred cancellations is gone also.The messages that were posted before and after are still there though.Seem's to me the mods are running overtime so other people dont see some of us are canceling subscriptions.I am going to call F&S and ask them what happened to my blog message.
 
By all means express your resentment to articles such as those Zumbo & Petzal wrote when necessary. Just do so in an appropriate manner & don't lose sight of the fact that we also need to educate those in the world of firearms who don't understand the danger of selectively sacrificing some guns while hoping to protect others OR who have yet failed to acknowledge the benefit/NEED for a united front in protecting our 2A rights. Re-read post #179; the concept was explained most eloquently there. Thank you, ArfinGreebly!
 
For those of you just joining in, here is a good summary of what is going on.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=50172

Here is my take. David Petzal must suffer the same fate as Jim Zumbo. We are going to make sure that anyone in "our" industry that thinks we are factionalized and that it is ok to sell each other out learns an important lesson.

The idea that the Brady Campaign is going to use our cleaning shop against us is completely absurd. The Brady Center does not post blogs or thread comments from anonymous posters named El Rojo. They cite published articles like Zumbro's and Petzal's.

Ted Nugent can try and bring these guys back into the fold as a means of education, but I don't think it will work. We are the best teachers out there right now. We have taught every writer out there that they need to dispose of this Fudd mentality or they will lose their job. When writers start incorporating pro-2nd Amendment aspects into their hunting articles in fear of losing their job in the industry forever, that teachers a lesson. That will bring us closer together.

PLEASE HEAR THIS! Spending all of our time wasting these traitors is not entirely efficient. YOU MUST TAKE FURTHER ACTION! Please take the time on Monday to call and write your legislators and oppose the anti-gun bills that are up on the agenda. Here in California we have http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/ and www.calguns.net to help you find the contact information and the relevant bill numbers.

ALL OF USE MUST TURN THIS ACTIVISM INTO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE. Just destroying these guys is a half of it. You must call and write on Monday. If all you do is type on some anonymous blog about this, you are no better than Zumbro or Petzal. You have to turn this grassroots action into something that really matters, turning it onto the anti's that want to take away your rights.

I am excited and encouraged by all of this action. Please don't let it go to waste.
 
...hey you

The fact that Purdy was at liberty with a gun of any kind was due to a catastrophic failure of the California justice system
...
...Petguy said it...
enforce the criminal laws and quit trying to "be correct"...Stop with the talk and start walkin' the walk...You are not "helping" anyone...

...sheesh...

I'm glad the blinders are comin' off...We just need to keep pullin' on this, the alternative is too horrible. If ever you wanted to do something, do it now...
rauch06.gif
 
El Rojo posted.
Here is my take. David Petzal must suffer the same fate as Jim Zumbo. We are going to make sure that anyone in "our" industry that thinks we are factionalized and that it is ok to sell each other out learns an important lesson.

Can't do it. Here is the THR party line from a moderator's post closing another thread.
No need to start some kind of "lynch mob". Time for ALL gunowners to work together.

I'm surprised that they haven't closed ALL threads critical of "gun" writers. After all, they have suffered enough (is that why they are still writing like Fudds?).
 
What Petzal said about Brady tactics is true. Even though Zumbo may have deserved what he got, the language and emotion used by posters on the 'net may come back to haunt us much as Zumbo's comments did. Truth has never been a major element in Brady tactics. Twisting things for propaganda purposes is their forte.
Does that mean that every racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, and misogynistic comment I've collected from anti-gunners in FidoNet and usenet over the past twenty odd years will be held against THEM? How about the "jokes" one of them posted about 9/11 while the World Trade Center was still burning merrily?

The "people" who think it's better for a woman to be raped and strangled to death with her own pantyhose than for her to shoot her wouldbe rapist to death with a handgun are going to do what they do, REGARDLESS of what anyone says. To believe otherwise is to think that no one would ever be attacked by a great white if the Discovery Channel stopped showing "Shark Week".
 
My question: Is Petzel going down or not?

Better to challenge Petzal on the field of ideas and win than threaten his livelihood if he is not silent. You might remove him as an "influence" but you do nothing to win over those on the fence. You need those people; people like me who didn't see a need to own firearms until 2004 after age 30. You need the entire Bill of Rights to be recognized and valued, even by those who don't choose to own firearms of any type.

Why don't you invite him to this forum to express his views and contest what many of us regard as his false and misleading statements? Get him on the radio or one of the hunting shows for a debate. If you can do that and turn him on his head, you don't need to get him fired.

What's next? Should we start threatening the livelihood of your average voter on the street when he or she doesn't agree with us?

I come to this forum because we generally attempt to be polite and use reason, but this is starting to get ridiculous. I'd rather read 200 posts on another .45 vs 9mm thread than some of the kneejerking tripe.

BURN THE WITCH, BURN THE WITCH!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

jm
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top