ATF opening huge cans of worms?

As idiotic as the result is, the ATF has several years of self-made precedent (you know, the kind that doesn't derive from any law but their own say-so in the courtroom that judges blindly obey) indicating that merely *marking* a feature on a gun is tantamount to *intent to produce* said feature. In the case of these lowers, that means they become three-hole machineguns, even if the hole isn't in the right spot to facilitate the use of standard autosears (which I understand it is) and even if the FCG pockets contained features that would block out these components. Theoretically, even engraving the letter "O" too close to the autosear hole location could be construed as intent to manufacture a machinegun.

A lot of 80% makers for other platforms (mainly various tube-based SMGs) have been required to forego marking features like ejection ports & the like on similar grounds, but for some reason gluing a template the outside of the part usually doesn't count (but not always). It's the removal of metal (even a minuscule amount) that they seem to primarily hang their hat on. It makes some sense, but "likelihood of intent" is still an additional degree of separation from "demonstrable intent" as I see it. Courts aren't willing to make such a distinction, however, so whatever the ATF says, is.

Oddly enough, silencer baffle precursors (sold as 'stackable cups' and the like, and functionally indistinguishable from machined stackable cups) are often allowed to be made with centered dimples helpful to those who do intend to drill them out for Form 1 builds. At least for the time being.

TCB

Just a grey area for them to confiscate your firearm if they wish to. Those who dont try to abide by the law dont worry about a silly little thing such as that, if confronted they just spray like the pest control man. Due to that the ATF just ignores them. Preadators like the ATF seldom attack prey if there is a good chance they will be injured. Thats why they prey on the person who tries to abide by the law as they are not in danger of injury from them. The court system will then remove all the money from your pockets and if not satisfied then lock you up .

barnbwt said:

Theoretically, even engraving the letter "O" too close to the autosear hole location could be construed as intent to manufacture a machinegun.

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Once again, let me remind everyone that there is no such thing as "constructive intent." The ATF are not mind readers, nor do they pretend to be. The operative phrase is "constructive possession." That is, if a gun or receiver is far enough along in the manufacturing process to be easily completed as a full automatic (regardless of intent to do so), then it's a "machine gun" and comes under the NFA. The issue is really what "easily completed" means. Whether the owner intends to complete the gun is irrelevant. At least one court has said that if a gun could be made into a machine gun in 8 hours or less in a well-equipped shop, it's a machine gun. Other courts have been more stringent. But anyway, it appears that marking the sear pin hole is enough to push the receiver over the edge. (This might be challenged on the ground that the marking is in the wrong location.)

I read about that a few months back, and the thing that came to mind as much as or perhaps even more than the sear pin pocket and hole location is the selector marking on the exterior of the receiver. Safe/fire markings indicate semiauto whereas safe-semi-auto markings indicate a full auto receiver and therefore a machine gun whether it has the additional material removed or not.

It all falls back to interpretations and rulings made arbitrarily and outside of the courtroom. They are essentially rewriting the law without changing a word which is scary to say the least.

AlexanderA said:

At least one court has said that if a gun could be made into a machine gun in 8 hours or less in a well-equipped shop, it's a machine gun.

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You got a link to that?

I think the vast majority of semiautomatic firearms fall into that category, a lot probably only needing less than a quarter hour in a common home garage.



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"At least one court has said that if a gun could be made into a machine gun in 8 hours or less in a well-equipped shop..."

A well equipped shop could make a Sten from scratch in 8 hours

"whereas safe-semi-auto markings indicate a full auto receiver and therefore a machine gun"

Somebody better warn Brownells:

"A “full-auto” position is not selectable but gives this semi-auto lower receiver the appearance of..."
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...receivers/ar-15-lower-receiver-prod31719.aspx

I like that pirate reciever

Acera said:

You got a link to that?

I think the vast majority of semiautomatic firearms fall into that category, a lot probably only needing less than a quarter hour in a common home garage.



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Yeah, the Bureau played at instituting such a rule at one time, but even modest scrutiny by anyone would show it to be bunk (no rifle is 8hrs from an sbr, for instance)

Once again, let me remind everyone that there is no such thing as "constructive intent." The ATF are not mind readers, nor do they pretend to be. The operative phrase is "constructive possession."

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Intent is considered as much a crime as possession for most gun laws since precursors are illogically considered the same as finished articles per the "readily convertible/restorable/etc" clauses, and "constructive" (or 'construed' as I actually said) has always been shorthand for "convincing enough to a court for it to side with the prosecution". Regulatory bodies like the ATF don't have to work very hard to convince judges, per the rules.

pintler said:

"whereas safe-semi-auto markings indicate a full auto receiver and therefore a machine gun"

Somebody better warn Brownells:

"A “full-auto” position is not selectable but gives this semi-auto lower receiver the appearance of..."
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...receivers/ar-15-lower-receiver-prod31719.aspx

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Doesn't Spikes have selectable (as semi auto) 3 position lowers? ATF can't care what you mark your gun, as function is what matters (case in point a known Form 1 approval with model name "ghetto blaster"), which is why this ruling of theirs is questionable and a distinct expansion of their authority.

Literally banning the engraving of the letter "O," which I suspect will eventually be seen as regulatory overreach by a court much like the many other times they have been slapped down at great expense. This is the Bureau's version of a SIG brake

pintler said:

At least one court has said that if a gun could be made into a machine gun in 8 hours or less in a well-equipped shop...

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A well equipped shop could make a Sten from scratch in 8 hours

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Or any number of other open bolt or stutter guns.

I'd love to see a link to this ruling. I don't doubt a lower court may have issued it, but I seriously doubt it stands as case law in any capacity. Anyone with a mill could turn an AR lower into an M16 lower in 10-15 minutes. Given 8 hours, there are very few semi autos a half decent machinist couldn't convert. The relative difficulty is not what prevents us from doing it.

MachIVshooter said:

Or any number of other open bolt or stutter guns. I'd love to see a link to this ruling. I don't doubt a lower court may have issued it, but I seriously doubt it stands as case law in any capacity. Anyone with a mill could turn an AR lower into an M16 lower in 10-15 minutes. Given 8 hours, there are very few semi autos a half decent machinist couldn't convert. The relative difficulty is not what prevents us from doing it.

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Just thought I would add this...Truthfully there are very few semiautos that can't be made to mag-dump in full auto form very very easily. The difficult part is stopping the FA runs. Some designs are as simple as fiddling around with the disconnector, some are as simple as reworking a sear. This is abundantly easy with open-bolt guns which is part of why they are illegal. Even closed-bolt designs can have breakages cause uncontrolled full auto fire. I have seen a broken firing pin do it, other parts can do it just as easily.

I had a little Marlin tube fed 22 i picked up used that would go full auto, and even stop when the trigger was let up. Absolutely repeatable. Scared me pretty bad till I sprayed a few squirts of brake cleaner in the action. Followed it up with some oil and no more full auto. I don't think the rifle had ever been cleaned.. It was filthy. I wonder how much trouble that dirty gun would have landed me in if I had tested it out at a range instead of on a logging road.

WestKentucky said:

Just thought I would add this...Truthfully there are very few semiautos that can't be made to mag-dump in full auto form very very easily. The difficult part is stopping the FA runs. Some designs are as simple as fiddling around with the disconnector, some are as simple as reworking a sear. This is abundantly easy with open-bolt guns which is part of why they are illegal. Even closed-bolt designs can have breakages cause uncontrolled full auto fire. I have seen a broken firing pin do it, other parts can do it just as easily.

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A few, but typically a disconnector failure (or having deliberately rendered it inop) just results in striker or hammer following the bolt home, not enough oomph to get ignition. It takes a harder hit to ignite a primer than most people realize. That was one of the biggest issues I had with my over/under build, ended up having to use extremely stout Sauer model H hammer springs to get ignition.

The disconnector in my 9mm pack rifle I made from D-2 tool steel, but I was not able to temper it to proper toughness (oven only goes to 550°F), and it broke after about 2000 rounds. It has a pretty stout striker spring, but still was rendered a single shot with the striker following the bolt home. When people screw up installing parts on an AR lower and it results in hammer follow, they always turn into single shots.

Usually when semis go full auto on people, it's worn sears or hammer hooks that will engage, but jar off when the slide or bolt slams home.

WestKentucky said:

I read about that a few months back, and the thing that came to mind as much as or perhaps even more than the sear pin pocket and hole location is the selector marking on the exterior of the receiver. Safe/fire markings indicate semiauto whereas safe-semi-auto markings indicate a full auto receiver and therefore a machine gun whether it has the additional material removed or not.

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In practice, that's not the position of the ATF. Markings by themselves don't seem to bother the ATF, even a marking that says "auto." Starting to drill a sear pin hole bothers them a lot, apparently.

This is insane and Europe is going to the same direction. Back in the 90's the definition was still very simple: two rounds in a magazine, insert magazine, chamber a round, pull the trigger and if both of them are fired with one trigger pull, it's full auto. If not, it isn't, and that was it. Lots of M16 receivers were used to build semi auto (and with appropriate paperwork, full auto) rifles back then - and it's still possible. Same thing with AK 3-hole receiver guns, there were plenty of them around as semi auto rifles. Usually with just the disconnector tang cut off and otherwise unmodified milspec configuration. I think I still have about a dozen XM177, M16A2 and M4 full auto receivers in a parts bin somewhere. A number of "deko" shops sell parts kits that consist of stripped down M16:s sans barrel and bolt. In current anti-gun climate it probably is only a matter of time when they'll be outlawed.

I used to laugh my proverbial behind off in the 80's when I heard that lightning links and drop-in auto sears are considered machine guns in the US. I had a DIAS as a key ring at the time. A marking punch dimple in a strategic spot on a receiver? In normal circumstances I'd say gimme a break, but having seen what ATF is (and isn't, as in common sense) capable of, this doesn't surprise me much.

hq said:

A number of "deko" shops sell parts kits that consist of stripped down M16:s sans barrel and bolt.

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Aren't barrels and bolts the regulated parts in many European nations, though?

As it were, I'm glad that's not the case here. Silly as the machine gun rules are, it's much easier to make receivers than bolts and (especially) barrels for those of us who build (I do bolts, but rifle barrels are beyond my capability), and for NFA purposes, having one registered host receiver that can accept a multitude of parts combinations for SBR or machine gun is vastly preferable to having to register each barrel and bolt.

MachIVshooter said:

Aren't barrels and bolts the regulated parts in many European nations, though?

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They are. That's why the parts kits are sold without them. As defined in the directive, any part (other than the firing pin and extractor) that is in contact with the cartridge when it's fired is subject to regulation. This rule doesn't apply to barrel blanks that haven't a chamber reamed.

OTOH, if you have a licensed firearm you can buy as many barrels and bolts for it as you like.

Figure if you're going to dance around and try and stick your toes on the line, you don't get to cry when they get stomped on. In the grand scheme its any area that half-a-brain should know not to fiddle around with and then ultimately...you have a fake 3d hole...where's the brag or showoff quality in that? People do such dumb stuff and then blame some other factor for them being retarded.

VinnAY said:

Figure if you're going to dance around and try and stick your toes on the line, you don't get to cry when they get stomped on.

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A platitude that is wholly inappropriate in the context of an agency which makes up the rules as it goes and exerts its authority beyond prescribed limits.

The most complicated problems are usually solved by a simple solution, but common sense ain't so common anymore. If it will select and fire full auto it's a machine gun. If it doesn't fire but one shot per trigger pull it is semi-auto. Very simple in my simple mind.

At the Shot Show Colt showed a M16A1 Reissue I believe it was called, had not only AUTO markings but U S PROPERTY exactly like my M16 has. Supposed to be available this spring. https://gundigest.com/classic-guns/first-look-colt-m16a1-reissue