Toy Gun Sold in U.S. Can Easily be Converted to the Real Thing

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The proof is that the BATFE has seized these guns, because the receivers, as-is, are in spec M4 receivers, and thus MGs in and of themselves. You know that.
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Yes, because the BATFE has a whole lot of credibility left, we should just trust them.
After all, they're from the government, and they're here to help.

So again, I'll ask the question that the scaremongers keep skirting:
Has there been a real crime committed with one of these "converted" airsoft guns? Point to the victim before you call "constructive possession" or "owning something that looks sort of like a real auto-sear" a crime.
 
again, I ask ... and nobody answers!
So again, I'll ask the question that the scaremongers keep skirting:
Has there been a real crime committed with one of these "converted" airsoft guns? Point to the victim before you call "constructive possession" or "owning something that looks sort of like a real auto-sear" a crime.
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i'm not aware of one yet they have a limited number imported thus far. is it your contention that the first crime is a freebie? or that till theres a secondary crime its ok?
 
Is it your contention that we need a department of pre-crime to control pre-criminals?

Remember when it was illegal to punch holes in stuff without permission?
Remember when it was LEGAL to manufacture your own firearm?

Those days aren't over yet, so how about you whomp up one of these dangerous airsoft-to-real conversions and explain how easy it is and why that's soo very dangerous to the public.
 
um we just did point it out to you we gave you measurements with micrometers pictures links to the parts you'd need to build a plug and play full auto m-16 in 10 mins. so far you started saying it couldn't be done and even with a couple gunsmiths saying it can and easily you are still resisting the idea that a crime happened. are you one of those sovreign citizens and all those pesky laws don't apply to you?
they apply to me so i'll decline the trip to club fed. you are welcome to start te revolutionary ball rolling if you want though. there will be lots of folks behind you. way back and getting further away each minute
 
OK CD, you're right, these are really dangerous and easily converted, we should have the department of pre-crime round up every one that was sold so they can be melted down into plowshares or something.
 
naw how about these folks quit importing anymore and we take of the tinfoil beanies and ranting about stupid atf and disbelieving the truth. doesn't have to be hard but some folks seem to glory in the drama
 
Felons, illegal immigrants and all others banned from buying a gun in the United States have a new alternative if they’re looking to get their hands on a firearm: Just buy a toy.
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In my lifetime I have known as friends, neighbors or relatives bootleggers, dope dealers, prostitutes, fence, burglar, members of a motorcylce club, city patrolmen, city detectives, corrections officers, ex-county sheriff, both sides of the law have talked to me about crime and guns for half-a-century.

Before I was 18 I possessed a .32 Walther PP (war trophy), a .32 Iver Johnson (sold by a NYC gambler for gas money at a TN/VA stateline bar), and a .22 derringer (used, private owner) from a thriving gray market (late 1950s and early 1960s there was a lot of talk of banning handguns, check the Eisenhower Commission). Plus guys in shop at school bragged about making .22 revolvers out of blank guns.

Wright and Rossi wrote up the NIJ felon survey (aldine 1986) that cited criminal sources for guns as dealers in contraband, theft, burglars and fences, burglary by the felon, gift or purchase from friends or relatives, used guns from private parties, and seldomn legally regulated sales. In Marvin Wolfgang "Patterns in Criminal Homicide" study the guns used in shooting homicides were mostly street sales.

A criminal could spend $350 on a metal airsoft rifle, do some gunsmithing, add a $500-$750 upper and have a new alternative if they’re looking to get their hands on a firearm. Alternative to what? For ~$1000 there are a lot of stolen military and police full-auto, unpapered war trophies, underground manufactured gun (what was CSAL raided for in Arkansas for instance), and smuggled illegal full-auto coming in with the illegal drugs: those guns have been used to kill people. Getting all worked up over a convertible toy seems like a displaced concern to me, especially since the questioned airsoft guns were not recovered from violent crime, but the concern appears to be just "what if" or "someone could" speculation.

The idea that criminals legally buy guns from legal sources does not jibe with my experience. In a similar vein, illegal sex is a problem: let's pile restrictions on marriage licenses until we cure it.

The problem with gun crime is criminal behavior, most of whic is already against the law.
 
Well, for one thing I can see where it's a machine gun. Everything functions, it all fits without too much modification, etc. But it's still gotta be regulated with constructive intent. As is, parts do need replacing, and a couple parts aren't quite to spec. So at that point you'd have to show that someone was planning on making a rifle out of one of these. But you can't just do that, because the fact that the full auto group is there doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be built into a full auto rifle. If that were the case, everyone building aks, stens, ppshs, etc. etc. would be guilty of owning machine guns because the full auto parts come with the parts kits. So, instead of making it illegal to own parts that are capable of being made into a machine gun (i.e. every metal tube ever as in an earlier example) why don't we just make it illegal to own machine guns that weren't registered prior to May 19, 1986? oh... wait...
 
C daddy what is your point, why are you pushing? this was about dead last week, but you keep pushing and saying the same thing, your point??

It ain't illegal until it's a gun....
 
the point is there was all this giggling coupled with the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth about the atf. in real life they were correct. the parts are to spec and its a 10 min plug and play m-16 the sear hole is drilled out all the milling is done . it is what the atf claimed it was. despite what the best conspiracy minds have put forth the facts are against them. i am opposed to manure . and i don't really care which side is peddling the manure. it reflects poorly on ones side if one is standing hip deep
 
someone said it better than me a long time ago
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt prior to investigation.” — Herbert Spencer
 
I have to ask another dumb question. You have made your own firearm. Can you legally use it for SD. LE will examine the gun. Also, I thought that the very simple zip gun was illegal to make and use.
 
owsi - yes you can make your own firearm, as long as it complies with the current laws. It cannot be capable of full auto, easily converted to full auto, srb, aow, and it must be uniquely marked if it is sold with some sort of SN.

The problem isn't that people could make a rifle out of these, it is that these have an auto sear (the only legal ones in the US were made before 84 or 86 and put on a registry... you cannot legally make one without a SOT license after that date) that was imported or created after the FA registry closed down. If these could only be converted into semi auto rifles, then there would be no issue. That they have an autosear that only requires the replacement of the hammer to be functional in an AR is what the whole fuss is about. It isn't the lower that the ATF has the issue with, it's the fire control group.

Your normal AR 15 won't take an autosear without a lot of work. The lower receivers of the semi-auto AR's were designed like that on purpose.
 
it can't be believed if the atf said it. and even if it is true it doesn't matter unless someone commits a real crime with it. oh and it costs too much that makes it ok.

did i miss any of the other good points?
 
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This is yet another problem caused by people not understanding an increasingly complicated world.

People aren't aware that you can make your own gun, buy 80% receivers, etc. The only thing most people know about guns is what they hear on the news - that they're scary and dangerous. When these people hear that a toy (which is not scary) can be converted into an "assault rifle" (which is scary), they get scared. Scared people do stupid things, like vote for the wrong people and watch lots of TV.

A block of aluminum can be made into any gun you want, as long as you have a mill. Let's prevent people from buying metal because anyone with metal, a mill, and the expertise could start their own weapons factory. Don't tell MSNBC or there will be a 15 part series about the dangers of folks starting their own machine gun factories.

The media should be ashamed of themselves, but they're not. As it turns out, scared people watching lots of TV makes TV networks rich.

The BATFE is aware of the finer points of the argument. They're acting like politicians by pretending not to. Unlike the media, they do have a legal obligation to "the people".

By the way (and maybe this should go in Activism under boycott), Leo Gonnuscio is from Kind Mountain Gun Works in Corneilius Oregon. The internet will provide more information if you want it.
 
Recap:

An $1100 airsoft rifle sort-of has a full auto trigger control group and the lower receiver could accept a real AR-15 parts.

Anyone possessing piles of money and malicious intent could buy this $1100 toy and an $800 AR-15 parts kit and make a machine gun that would probably work, at least for a while.

Or, lacking money but having malicious intent, someone could steal any old gun and use it to commit whatever crime they were going to. Save on shipping costs and all that.



If you agree that the fed gov should have its nose in a non-criminal's business about what guns they're using for lawful purposes, then I can understand feeling that these toys should be regulated. Since the laws regulating possession and use of MGs don't actually do anything to prevent crime, controlling these toys makes absolutely no sense.
 
its the subtle nuances of difference between a chunk of aluminum and a ready made receiver that with 400 bucks worth of parts and a leatherman can be made into a machine gun in 10 mins that the ATF is missing?!!
 
Recap:

An $1100 airsoft rifle sort-of has a full auto trigger control group and the lower receiver could accept a real AR-15 parts.

Anyone possessing piles of money and malicious intent could buy this $1100 toy and an $800 AR-15 parts kit and make a machine gun that would probably work, at least for a while.

Or, lacking money but having malicious intent, someone could steal any old gun and use it to commit whatever crime they were going to. Save on shipping costs and all that.



If you agree that the fed gov should have its nose in a non-criminal's business about what guns they're using for lawful purposes, then I can understand feeling that these toys should be regulated. Since the laws regulating possession and use of MGs don't actually do anything to prevent crime, controlling these toys makes absolutely no sense.

er no in the neighborhood right street wrong address

nothin sorta about it

the receiver is an exact m-16 receiver that with 400 bucks of unregulated parts becomes a post ban f/a weapon in 10 mins. whats a f/a m16 worth nowadays? oh yea and it lacks the serial number.

if your gonna recap the facts would be nice i know it encumbers you but they are the facts

i just looked are m16's really going for 10 k? goodness gracious!!
 
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People aren't aware that you can make your own gun, buy 80% receivers, etc.
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It's not that making a weapon at home is at issue here, no matter how many times some of y'all try to introduce that strawman. It's the notion that bolting a standard AR upper to a full-auto Airsoft lower can possibly be made to work in some manner or another, and in the process allow the creation of an illegal machine gun. The technical viability of that is what should be under discussion - nothing else.

Making firearms yourself is allowed by Federal law, but only if the firearm conforms to the appropriate laws of the jurisdiction. Making full-auto weapons at home without the appropriate FFL coverage is against the law - period.

I may or may not like the fact that the ATF closely regulates full-auto weaponry. That doesn't matter. They do.

Declaring such regulation to be silly is very much OK by me. :) I would agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly. On the other hand, declaring it to be null-n-void or encouraging folk to break that law, well, that would run contrary to The High Road and we will NOT do that.
 
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