Toy Gun Sold in U.S. Can Easily be Converted to the Real Thing

[Pileatus]

I smell a MythBusters episode...

 

[NG VI]

“The upper is what contains the barrel, the breecher bolt, that’s what contains all the pressure,” Savage said.

Expert?

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

“There’s a line of AR-15 firearms out there where the lower (the receiver) is made entirely of injection molded plastic … It could be made of cardboard and scotch tape,” he said.

Yeah! What were those losers at 3M thinking when they started making Scotch tape? Didn't they recognize the weapons potential? They need to be shut down yesterday.

Maybe they'll sic Holder on 'em. I see the potential for a government backed lawsuit against 3M.

The evil cardboard manufacturers are next.

KR

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

theres a gunny/machinist/pretty fair gunsmith on another site whos got one of those airsoft that he says will take an upper as is

I disagree. This isn't just "stupid nonsense". Here are the specific issues with saying this is just regulatory nonsense:

The receivers are perfectly strong enough. (6061T6 aluminum)
The FCG pin placement, upper pins, magwell, and rear tower threads are all in spec.
There is a genuine M16 autosear in there. The "toy" has a legitimate autosear in the correct location.

To make this "toy" into a MG takes the following as an absolute minimum - shim the FCG by less than .050" (this can be skipped if you don't care about the lower surviving very long, it will egg the FCG pin holes out), put an M16 hammer in place of the toy one, and snap on an upper with an FA BCG.

Ta-da.

Not exactly a "toy". undecided


If someone were selling "toy" STEN Mk2s where all you had to do was get a real magazine, ammunition, and screw a new barrel on, there'd be no question in anyone's mind. What gives, with this?


EDIT: Just to be 100% clear. These are not "toys". By the 1934NFA, they are a machinegun - a receiver that is in spec for a machinegun as-is, is a machinegun in and of itself. Period. Full stop. There is no conversion going on, they are already machineguns.

guys got a bunch of full auto toys and such he knows his stuff

 

[rm23]

If these airsoft rifles must be seized because they are so easily converted, why aren't all AR-15s seized?

 

[bigfatdave]

Assuming it is possible (and I'm not buying that the conversion would be easier than making a gun from scratch) ... how does it benefit the safety of the public to make one of these mythical airsoft -> real guns?

And this is old news about another asshat move from the ATF
Is there some update from a real expert who isn't working for the ATF to make them look halfway legitimate?

 

[bigfatdave]

rm23, holy crap, you're right!
ANYONE could just slap some ammo into an AR-15 and go shoot up a school! We have to regulate the tools, because the criminals will certainly be using $1000 guns to rob gas stations and convenience stores! And the citizens would become criminals the moment they touched a gun that could be converted into a real one by swapping out all the internals, so they would probably become satan or something if they got their hands on a gun that didn't even need to go to a machine shop to fire real ammo 15-20 times!

 

[Shadow 7D]

From a prior thread about the seizure there was a link that went to the company web site, now it may be a different one, but according to them, beside not holding up, there is the little problem that the lower wouldn't work, something out the hammer not hitting the FP type thing.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

My impressions on the original article are:

First, AR15 and M16 lower receivers carry the serial number because that is where the fire control group is located that determines whether the gun is semi-auto only or selective fire with full auto capability.

Two, this particular airsoft model has a metal lower that is a near replica of an M16 lower. Most airsoft guns are not so close as to serve as fire control groups for a real firearm receiver.

Three, the fluff in the article about the upper receiver having the barrel and bolt is distracting, unless they intend to back up fifty years and start controlling AR upper receivers as well as lowers.

The problem I see is an airsoft rifle with an M16 replica lower that can easily be modified to take an upper; however, if it self-destructs after 15 to 20 rounds, it is not a good replica. 1950s zip guns made by combining a car aerial with a cap gun had longer useful lives and did not cost $1100. Is this another "potential" problem getting a lot of ballyhoo? In other words, has a real criminal actually tried it?

Added: If these airsoft rifles must be seized because they are so easily converted, why aren't all AR-15s seized?
AR-15s or AR-15 lowers are sold as guns at gun shops on a 4473; this particular airsoft model was not sold as a gun.

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

First, AR15 and M16 lower receivers carry the serial number because that is where the fire control group is located that determines whether the gun is semi-auto only or selective fire with full auto capability.

I always understood that the rule before ATF "revised" their definition of "gun" was that the "gun" itself was the "receiver of the magazine."

I may be mistaken.

KR

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

you are not mistaken so those airsofts amount to guns without serial numbers a big bozo no no

 

[zombienerd]

Added: If these airsoft rifles must be seized because they are so easily converted, why aren't all AR-15s seized?
AR-15s or AR-15 lowers are sold as guns at gun shops on a 4473; this particular airsoft model was not sold as a gun.

Ahem.

http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1001

Not sold as a firearm. Not Illegal.

Drill a few holes, and you've got a AR-15.

Same Freaking Thing.

Not Illegal to build a rifle in your garage. Next Topic.

 

[zombienerd]

you are not mistaken so those airsofts amount to guns without serial numbers a big bozo no no

They are not ready to go. They need modification.

Not a gun. Now we could argue if they could be considered an 80% complete receiver... It's getting grey there.

I still don't see an issue.


Clarification: In order for an AR-15 receiver to be legally "Not a gun" it must be less than 80% completed. You can find 80% Receivers all over the net, shipped direct to your door, no FFL required.

I'm not how the math is done on that.

 

[Boba Fett]

Bear in mind that even the metal airsoft guns aren't made out of the same metals as a real firearm. From what I've seen, the metal ones are made out of pot metal, which is fine for an airsoft gun, but not so good for a real one.

Oh most certainly. Not trying to imply that the metal is suitable for use with real ammo. Simply pointing out that not all airsoft guns are the dinky plastic ones most of us see in the stores.

 

[zombienerd]

For those who never knew about 80% complete receivers, here's a good FAQ:

http://www.acmearms.com/80percentfaq.php

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

well heres a link look at ptk's posts if you wonder if he knows what hes doing research his posts and pics of his toys
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=24459.0

 

[bigfatdave]

you are not mistaken so those airsofts amount to guns without serial numbers a big bozo no no

So what if they do? (and I'm still not buying conversion without major machining)

You can legally build a firearm from scratch, you can even build one around a bunch of common parts.

So what is it, exactly, that you have a problem with here?
-The lack of a NICS check?
-The lack of a traceable serial number?
-The way responsible citizens turn into slavering predatory criminals the moment they touch a un-numbered gun?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i'm not the one with a problem its the atf a bit miffed about the import of almost completed lowers with with no serial numbers. did i mention that they are essentially f/a ready? also makes atf unhappy. i know that it was great fun going off about how the atf was clueless when they grabbed the airsofts as they came into port. now that it turns out that in fact the lowers will take an upper as well as go f/a it might be wise for folk to know. that pesky constructive possession and all

 

[bigfatdave]

1 - constructive posession is a BS crime
2 - the ATF can get "experts" to say the toys are real guns if they like, I'll remain skeptical
3 - define "mostly completed" please ... is it more than 80% complete, and how do you measure completion percentages?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i've posted links to a thread in another forum where a guy actually has one of the airsoft lowers and goes into quite a bit of detail. only go look if you are interested in knowing it does tend to spoil the speculation

 

[bigfatdave]

Yeah, I read it, and I give a random forum poster more credibility than Fox "News" and the ATF's pet "expert" ... that APS thread is talking about rebuilding with $600 worth of parts ... I can get at least TWO crime-appropriate semiauto rifles for that price, and it doesn't include the expensive and silly airsoft gun or any machining or part-swapping.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

There is a genuine M16 autosear in there. The "toy" has a legitimate autosear in the correct location.

To make this "toy" into a MG takes the following as an absolute minimum - shim the FCG by less than .050" (this can be skipped if you don't care about the lower surviving very long, it will egg the FCG pin holes out), put an M16 hammer in place of the toy one, and snap on an upper with an FA BCG.

thats not semi auto if you question his gunsmithing chops ask around try oleg

 

[bigfatdave]

That sounds like actual gun-smithing required to convert to me ... thus making the devices at worst "incomplete lowers".
Tell you what, as soon as I decide "constructive possession" is a real crime or danger to the populace, I'm going to lump this in with "assault weapon" fear and snicker at anyone scared of airsoft conversions behind their back.

 

[Big_E]

Not to mention that criminals prefer handguns because they are easily concealable.

 

[bigfatdave]

On further thought, I shouldn't be lumping this silliness in with"assault weapon" fear, this is akin to the "gun-show loophole"

Oh noes, there is an airsoft gunsmith loophole, someone call a politician and make them fix it!