Question On Drawing Down On Private Land

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Mr. Mosin

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Buddy was hiking here recently, and come upon an individual of ill intent on private land (his private land). The trespassing individual drew a large knife and made known his intent towards my friend. Buddy had a SA revolver in .45 on his hip, and laid hand to it and drew when the individual made known his intent. My buddy is not pressing charges, and I doubt anything to come of this from the trespassing individual's side (if it must be known, he is a well known local drug addict). If something like this was to go to court, what would come of it ? For reference, this happened in MS.
 
If an individual was threatened by and believed that an individual armed with a knife was able to and intended to do them physical harm, then shooting the aggressor with a firearm may well later be found justifiable. With no witnesses, it would be a long, expensive, unpleasant process after the fact with no certitude of oourcome.

In this specific case, your friend should report the incident to the police, citing both trespass and the threat of bodily harm. If it happened once, it may happen again, and your friend will be in a much better place having previously reported trespass and threatened aggression.
 
y buddy is not pressing charges,...
In criminal cases, it is not up to a citizen to decide whether or not to pursue charges.

Typically a good idea to be the first to report it
Put that among your catechisms.

Then the person in question is very foolish, needs to study seriously how to carry, the use of lethal force, etc.

I’d talk to a competent lawyer immediately.
Yes indeed.

Good lord.
 
In criminal cases, it is not up to a citizen to decide whether or not to pursue charges.

Put that among your catechisms.

Yes indeed.

Good lord.
He's the type who (similar to myself) is young, dumb, and thinks he's bullet proof. Unlike me, he doesn't listen to logic or reason.
 
Glad nothing bad occurred... Here's a strong second for reporting the incident... Anyone dumb enough to threaten someone that's carrying a sidearm with a knife isn't rational - and will likely be a problem again.... Withdrawing, weapon in hand is the only way to deal with someone like this.

Armed confrontations have such a random result that they're best avoided at all costs in my opinion. Defending yourself from an armed trespasser is not something to look forward to since it will likely have all kinds of unforeseen consequences. As always using deadly force is your very last option - but sometimes you'll have no choice at all... That's why I'd report the incident in detail - and make sure to get a case number in the event that you need that report in the future... If local authorities can find the guy a "trespass after warning" notice to him should be part of any police response in dealing with him.. That way if he's found on your property again local authorities can arrest without you even being present if they find him there...

Lastly I'd also make a point of talking with my neighbors about the problem individual since he's likely a problem for them as well... Here's hoping the problem doesn't occur again but best to take the appropriate steps - just in case...

By the way this is exactly how I advised more than one resident of the city I worked for years ago... some things don't change. This fellow was only armed with a knife - in my state, Florida, "trespass while armed" (with a gun...) is a felony...
 
I do not know about the MS law, but in PA whether on your property or in public, if a person presents a visible deadly weapon and acts in a threatening manner toward you using deadly force is justifiable. That also applies to protecting others who are so threatened. I have my own simple rule: I would rather go on trial for wounding or killing someone than have them go on trial for wounding or killing me. If a person with a knife treated me anywhere he or she would be quickly looking down the barrel of a 9mm Walther,
 
I dunno. It's a bad situation and important that it not get worse. Probably should have asked the guy to go and called the sheriff or whomever if he didn't. Right then. But, we don't know if they know each other, if it is a small community, if they see each other, etc...A Hatfield-McCoy situation can happen before you know it in some locales and that would be bad. The entire encounter, as related here, seems kind of creepy and not quite right. Staying chilly is probably a good thing. Good luck to your friend.
 
He's the type who (similar to myself) is young, dumb, and thinks he's bullet proof. Unlike me, he doesn't listen to logic or reason.
Then, he'll probably learn things the hard way in life, sadly. Those who cannot listen to logic or reason might do well to re-examine their decision to carry, particularly open carry.
 
...if a person presents a visible deadly weapon and acts in a threatening manner toward you using deadly force is justifiable.
That is not in question.

If something like this was to go to court, what would come of it ?
That would depend entirely upon how he evidence presented appears after rhe fact.

If it really happened as described, the person with the revolver would have been well served to have had a bodycam with video.

If it is just one persons word against another , the first person to report it would have a leg up.

Consider this: testimony that the other guy pulled a singe action revolver, combined with discoverable evidence that he owned on, would likely be taken as more credible than testimony that the other guy had some kind of knife, which may have been discarded.
 
I do not know about the MS law, but in PA whether on your property or in public, if a person presents a visible deadly weapon and acts in a threatening manner toward you using deadly force is justifiable. That also applies to protecting others who are so threatened. I have my own simple rule: I would rather go on trial for wounding or killing someone than have them go on trial for wounding or killing me. If a person with a knife treated me anywhere he or she would be quickly looking down the barrel of a 9mm Walther,

Looking at PA statutes which are typical of an old state compiling old court decisions into code. They are rather complex with a bunch of caveats, restating basic principles of self defense in multiple parts, etc. I would advise going through something like Branca's Law of Self Defense for your state.

The major issue is that the PA law has an unstated reasonable person objective std. which is not found directly in the statute stated as such. A reasonable actor would be defined by the jury looking at the facts in the case, the judge--both facts and law, the statute's wording, and caselaw interpreting that wording. PA affords less protection if you are confronting a trespasser, even on your own land. See section two below. In other words, going off to protect your land from a trespasser might be considered unreasonable if you take a gun or knife with you to the confrontation. From my reading, absent doing any caselaw analysis, is that aside from your home, workplace where the castle doctrine mentioned below applies, that confronting others on your property with the chance of escalation is not a wise idea. Best in this case to call the cops or retreat from the situation if you stumble across them on your property. The person on your property could be an undercover/off duty cop looking for a fleeing suspect, a game warden, a lost hunter, a surveyor, an assessor, or a meth crackhead. Any by the last would risk a deadly confrontation that could go south real quick.

"https://codes.findlaw.com/pa/title-18-pacsa-crimes-and-offenses/pa-csa-sect-18-507.html"

Here is the section referring to deadly force and property,
"(2) The use of force to prevent or terminate a trespass is not justifiable under this section if the actor knows that the exclusion of the trespasser will expose him to substantial danger of serious bodily injury.

(3) The use of force to prevent an entry or reentry upon land or the recaption of movable property is not justifiable under this section, although the actor believes that such reentry or caption is unlawful, if:

(i) the reentry or recaption is made by or on behalf of a person who was actually dispossessed of the property;  and

(ii) it is otherwise justifiable under subsection (a)(2).

(4) (i) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if:

(A) there has been an entry into the actor's dwelling;

(B) the actor neither believes nor has reason to believe that the entry is lawful;  and

(C) the actor neither believes nor has reason to believe that force less than deadly force would be adequate to terminate the entry. (editorial comment, bolded text in part 4--this is the Castle Doctrine dealing only with the home and not out buildings nor land)


(ii) If the conditions of justification provided in subparagraph (i) have not been met, the use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that:

(A) the person against whom the force is used is attempting to dispossess him of his dwelling otherwise than under a claim of right to its possession;  or

(B) such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.

Here is the general self defense statute of PA,
https://codes.findlaw.com/pa/title-18-pacsa-crimes-and-offenses/pa-csa-sect-18-505.html for the public.
And defense of others statute of PA,
https://codes.findlaw.com/pa/title-18-pacsa-crimes-and-offenses/pa-csa-sect-18-506.html

The critical issue on use of lethal force is whether or not the person doing the action (you if acting in self defense) has a reasonable (that is for the jury, judge, statute definitions, and past court cases to decide) belief that the other person intends to "(2) The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat" Pennsylvania Statutes Title 18 Pa.C.S.A. Crimes and Offenses § 505.

The unstated presumption when they refer to actor (you) is that you are acting an objectively reasonable manner defined by the jury, judge, statutes, and caselaw. These unstated presumptions are why it is difficult to read specific code and apply it to your situation.

Here is an PA attorney's interpretation of PA law regarding self defense but leaving out the substantial caveats in the statutes (and maybe in the caselaw).

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/pennsylvania-law/pennsylvania-self-defense-laws.html

So apply this to the original post, someone is on someone else's land. Let say the guy was a hunter that got lost or even a poacher and they have both rifle and knife. You are still not allowed to shoot them unless they make overt threats to you indicating a risk of serious injury or death. Example, they are raising the rifle to firing position on the shoulder to point at you and saying something like "I gonna teach you a lesson." Then most reasonable people would believe that was a serious threat to life and limb of the target. But if the rifle is slung, the knife is in a sheath, a jury would take a very dim view of arguing that a reasonable threat to life or serious injury existed.
 
Not sure in the O/P what is meant by stated his intent. Generally speaking, your friend should have called the cops given the encounter because the perp is wandering around and the next encounter may be deadly.

Would your friend be held responsible, that is a whole kettle of fish turning on the facts of the encounter--this is basically a summary of what I have gleaned from the scant facts of the original post.

a)hiking rather than trying to confront a trespasser
b)hiker owned the land in question and the other person was the interloper
c)presentation of knife by the interloper
d)distance of the encounter
e)what specifically was said
f) was there an opportunity to safely retreat (which might not be specifically required in MS but wise to do)
g) Corroborating witness testimony regarding perceived threat
h) did the reporter to the cops show the mantle of innocence. Innocent people report potential crimes and suspects because they have no fear of their actions being judged.
i) testimony from the hiker regarding all possible factual observations and heard statements from the interloper
perception of interloper body language, perception of threat presented, perception of being able to go away from conflict, what the hiker said to the interloper (this can be crucial--if the hiker said something like "git off my land or else" prior to the presentation of the knife--could be trouble, versus "we don't want no trouble with you--we are leaving."
j)the testified sequence of events along with subsequent actions.
 
The basic fact is that the trespass is pretty much a red herring. Trespass by itself, under the laws of pretty much every State, will usually not justify the threat or use of lethal force. Justification for the threat or use of lethal force in general requires a reasonable belief that such threat or use is necessary to prevent imminent death or grave bodily injury to an innocent.

Was that the case with the OP's friend? As boom boom points out, it's tough to know without corroborating evidence. But in any event the fact that the OP's friend didn't promptly report the incident will not help him.
 
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