Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

The stock maker, Shane, can be reached at [email protected] if anyone would like a stock made. There's leeway in the actual design so you can get a different forearm or LOP, etc.

He also showed me some guns that I thought had been hot blued. Turns out he 'flame blues' them. The forearm screw and butt plate of my stock has been flame blued. Really is a nice looking effect in my opinion.

FIRE BLUE C.jpg

FIRE BLUE D.jpg

FIRE BLUE E.jpg
 
Now if anyone can make your gun worthy of the furniture, like 400 fps, it would be well worth it or is that too optimistic?
BTW, can anyone estimate what the top limit in fps might be for the action.
 
flightsimmer said:
Now if anyone can make your gun worthy of the furniture, like 400 fps, it would be well worth it or is that too optimistic?
BTW, can anyone estimate what the top limit in fps might be for the action.
Click to expand...
I think a reliable 400 fps is doable with the HP spring. It'll take preloading it and a bored out air tube but that's what I've been doing all along. And hinz 57 has reached that level already, but reliability might have been an issue, I can't exactly remember. When things settle down some I promise I'll do the mods and report the chronograph results, be they good, bad, or otherwise.

As far as the absolute upper limit, the plastic trigger will become an issue at some point. I'm hoping soon that the stock maker Shane will perfect his billet steel trigger made to fit the 1938B (he's also working on biller levers). Then it's a matter of how much can the plunger tube take before distorting. You may recall, hinz57 came up with an ingenious fix for how the spring anchor causes the end of the spring to bend. With that corrective bushing in place and a billet trigger, who knows- 450 fps, maybe more? Beyond 500 fps may be out of reach using the stock plunger tube, but we won't know until it's tried!
 
They do look pretty neat. I heard there's no 'notch' on the lever to catch on the receiver retainer that keeps the stock lever latched in place, though. No idea if that's a problem or not.
 
46779319022_cf8847d718_c.jpg 2019-01-21_03-58-44

Oiled it well be let it set for a week until today when the weather was better 6 shots and the
Chef Boyerdee can look like this!

I shot it 3 times from down inside and split the can.
 
cobalt327 said:
I recently met a fellow Daisy lover and turns out he's also a stock maker. He mentioned having an eBay store and I liked what I saw after going there to take a look around. Cut to today when I just picked up my very own maple stock and forearm for my Daisy Red Ryder. The photos were taken indoors, as soon as the weather here gets sunny I'll take more photos in natural light so the 'chatoyance' will be more visable. I'll let the photos speak for themselves other than to say the photos cannot convey how butter-smooth the stock really is, nor how nicely it shoulders and balances:

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Click to expand...

Get a Chief AJ. Big Loop Lever and your set!
 
cobalt327 said:
They do look pretty neat. I heard there's no 'notch' on the lever to catch on the receiver retainer that keeps the stock lever latched in place, though. No idea if that's a problem or not.
Click to expand...
It is not a problem.The Chief AJ lever latches in place just fine.
 
Hi all, sorry I have been out of touch for quite awhile. Life...

I went back and read the thread again. Some very interesting progress has been made.

Just to remind anyone interested, how I was able to exceed 400fps with a new Chinese RR. Well it’s actually the pink Ryder...At the time I didn’t mind modifying it! It required the use of a very modified 499 shot tube, the custom made thin wall ss air tube, modified abutment, modified spacer(anchor angle corrected) at iirc, 7/8” preload, the avanti bb’s. Lots of time/trial and error. Access to a mill and lathe made it doable. Most of this is documented somewhere earlier in the thread.

I now have in my possession, cobalt327’s very nice custom springs. I hope to, very soon, dust off the old RR, install a new spring and test it out with various preloads.

The observations that the stock air tube is a loose fit and allows air leakage is spot on. The custom air tube is a very close fit in the 499 shot tube. It is also slightly longer so that it closes if the bb feed port slightly earlier.

I’ve also come to believe that the ideas of longer stroke, larger air chambers, etc are not the answer. I believe that the answer is accelerating the piston in the first approx 1/2” of travel to the maximum speed possible so that the first 0.22 cubic in of air are displaced as rapidly as possible, with the least air loss at the feed tube port is the answer. After that, the bb is long gone from the shot tube and the rest of the air is “blowing in the wind”.

This is also why the 499 is Much easier to gain mv. Minimum air loss. When I can spend the time to start modifying another, I plan to use a buck. If I can get my hands on an older, made in USA version, I would prefer that. From what I can see, the sheet metal in some is slightly thicker. Though that is not always the case. Just depended on the lot of steel daisy received for any given batch.... Anyway it would be easier to install the 499 shot tube in the shorter Buck versions.

Anyway, this is my latest working theory. I’ve sent cobalt a new bit of 499 modification to test out. I believe that if it works as I think it will, it will at least substantiate my conjecture. If not, there are more ideas to consider!

Regards, hinz57
 
The part hinz mentioned above is a custom modified Daisy 499 abutment. It has a streamlined and enlarged transfer port- it's a work of art. It is shown below.

In discussions I had with hinz, we thought there may be gains t be had by enlarging the TP. Readers may recall the 499 I assembled from a pile of parts. This gun, using a current production Red Ryder spring in place of the stock 499 spring with no other changes upped the MV from 240 fps to 420 fps. The question of the TP size came about after I swapped the Red Ryder spring for one of my HP springs and the MV didn't pick up as expected, leading me to believe the TP was the culprit- it simply cannot pass enough air quickly enough into the 9" shot tube.

The stock 499 abutment is on the left side in the photos. The side that has the threads is where the shot tube is attached, the other side with the white seal around the OD faces the compression chamber/piston. It shows just how restricted a stock 499 transfer port is. Part of the restriction comes from the small orifice, but the position of the magnet that holds a BB in firing position also takes up a big part of the TP and looks like it would cause turbulence. Hinz opened the TP up to the largest it can be and still hold a BB from falling through to the compression chamber when the gun's cocked. The magnet has been repositioned so it's orientated 90 degrees to the bore axis so it no longer blocks any part of the TP. The magnet still holds the BB firmly in place- I couldn't shake a BB free from the abutment.

Hopefully this abutment will allow the 499 to reach a higher muzzle velocity that what I was able to get using the stock 499 abutment. Testing will follow.

499 ABUTMENT FIN HINZ A.jpg


This shows the relative position of the parts that make up a 499 shot tube assembly. Left to right: abutment, shot tube, shot tube nut (part that is hex-shaped) and the muzzle plug, aka "funnel":
499B PLUNGER AND SHOT TUBE ASSY-S W-ABUTMENT A.jpg

Details of how the funnel is attached to the shot tube, collet style:
499 muzzle components.jpg
 
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Cobalt, glad to see the part arrived! I am eager to see testing results. I have a good feeling about this. It may require preload to maximize it....

Thanks again for everything! Much appreciated.

Another question. I’m making some stacking trays to put BB guns in to keep them organized. I would like to make them long enough to hold whatever the longest BB guns are. Not sure what that might be. Maybe the model 25? How long is a 25? What other considerations for size? I’m thinking about 7” x 40” inside. About 3” deep. Input from anyone is appreciated!
 
I'm ready to have my mind blown next time I shoot the 499 but I have found to expect the unexpected, so call it guarded optimism.

Your size sounds good. The 499B is the longest lever BB gun I have @ 36.375”long, the 880 pump pellet/BB gun is 37.625” long. If the 499 had peep sights it looks like it would need about 7” width if laid as shown below. Daisys with open sights would need less. The 499 forearm is 2” wide so the compartment would need to be at least that deep so 3" would work very well.

Model_499B box.jpg
 
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Yeah, I do but I'm a thousand miles from it at present but I'll see if my wife can measure it later today.
How about that, Google says the model 25 Daisy is 37 inches long.
So there you have it boys and girls.
 
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Thanks flightsimmer! Please don’t bother your wife. I see that your google foo is strong!
 
hinz57 said:
I’ve also come to believe that the ideas of longer stroke, larger air chambers, etc are not the answer. I believe that the answer is accelerating the piston in the first approx 1/2” of travel to the maximum speed possible so that the first 0.22 cubic in of air are displaced as rapidly as possible, with the least air loss at the feed tube port is the answer. After that, the bb is long gone from the shot tube and the rest of the air is “blowing in the wind”.
Click to expand...

If this is true, then perhaps accelerating the piston before it gets to where compression happens will increase your MV. If you could speed up the piston somehow without getting compression, then coming to a place in your cylinder where you did get compression...

What if you perforated the first part of the cylinder to allow your piston to accelerate for a little bit before you got any compression? Then your BB would be taking energy instead of from 0-.5 inch of travel, perhaps .5-1.0 inch of travel (your piston travel is the measurement from where it starts)?

When you hit something with a sledgehammer you get a nice long swing before you bash it, right?
 
Mauser lover, I like your sledge hammer analogy! I think that is rather spot on. The perforation concept also bears further thought. I’ll have to discuss this a bit with my brother. There are always unintended consequences for each change. One of these would be the effect of the air tube on the bb. At least in the case of the 1938b design type.

I would suggest that in the case of the daisy design, there is no compression or at least nearly no compression, because there is never a closed compression chamber. At best, when the air is funneled through the air tube, there is an amount of resistance, which could possibly create an almost immeasurable amount of compression.

Rather, there is displacement. The faster the displacement, the faster the mv. My latest thinking includes lowering the mass of the moving parts, possibly actually a smaller more efficient air chamber....

It may be easier to incorporate some changes with the 499, since there is no air tube. Maybe increase the magnetic field to hold the bb in place longer to actually, maybe, create some compression....maybe drill some holes in the chamber to slow the piston “sledge hammer” to accelerate more before the break away point of the magnetic field.

I’ll have to consult with the physicists. Talk about real world application of fluid dynamics intersecting with magnetics.

More contemplation is required!

Thanks for your input!

Any one with a 499b that wants holes drilled in it?
 
Oops, that should have read “allow the piston” rather than “slow the piston”.... sorry
 
Well, I pulled out the old BB gun, set up the chrono, shot 35 avanti bb’s that were read. Here’s the results!

Hi- 414
Lo- 401
Av- 408
ES- 13
SD- 2

Pretty much the same as a year ago.

Hopefully, will have time this weekend to change out to cobalts spring.
 
Cobalt, could a person put the 499 abutment into a 1938b, use the 499 shot tube, piston, etc.

Basically create a 499 power plant in a 1938b. Maybe shorten the barrel shroud to fit the 499 shot tube assembly. Sort of a disposable test platform....

I’m intrigued by the concept of perforating the air chamber to allow higher piston speed before displacing the remaining air at a higher velocity. Maybe...
 
Offhand, I don't know. But I have the necessary parts here to mock up a new style 105 w/a 499 abutment and shot tube to see if it'll work. I'll let you know something tomorrow.

I'm excited t see what the outcome will be of giving the piston a running start!

Just an idle thought, devil's advocate style: it seems that if there's no actual air compression occurring, the piston acceleration would be slowed more by friction between it and the walls of the compression chamber than it would from air stacking up between the abutment and piston, especially at the very beginning of the stroke when the most area is in front of the piston, no? If that were the case, it would then seem to me that the most benefit from vent holes would come from there being less friction against the piston during the first part of the power stroke, and not from the holes venting "pressure".

Idle thoughts, part 2
It would be interesting to hook a Daisy BB gun up with the measurement equipment like used by several folks over at GTA. They have wired several guns up to determine parameters such as valve dwell, hammer speed, barrel harmonics and things more like what we'd like to know such as how long the projectile was in the barrel and what the velocity was of the projectile at various points in time and distance in the barrel. There are a couple threads that delve into this, first one is long:
It wouldn't be much of a stretch to use the equipment to learn things like the acceleration rate of the piston in a Daisy, pressure curves (if pressure exist) and piston movement vs. air displacement vs. BB position in the barrel, and lots more.
 
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380 fps with a used 1938B spring on the 105 plunger tube, no preload spacer and a 499 piston. I lightly oiled the felt wiper and put a little oil around the edge of the piston to install the plunger assembly. The thing went together like it was made to use the 499 parts with the exception of the funnel and barrel nut- the funnel could be adjusted to fit against the shroud like a 499 but the loading door would need to be removed first. I left it as-is for testing but it would be easy enough to make it fit correctly. How to deal with the hole in the shroud when the loading door is removed is another thing.

105-499 ABUTMENT.jpg

499 shot tube assembly.JPG

105-499 shot tube fit in shroud A.jpg
 
Cobalt, thx for that input and pix! Lots of good information is coming forward! Thx to everyone for their ideas and input.

Now that you have a base line with the 105/499, could you try it with the modified abutment? Then with your spring? That could give a very good suggestion if my current thinking is reasonable or completely “missing the target”.

Also could you screw the 499 shot tube assy into the abutment, then lay it in position next to the 1938b shroud, and post a pic of that. I’d like to see where the barrel shroud would need to be modified. I have some damaged barrel shrouds to modify.

Idle thought #1
Friction is certainly a thing. I haven’t addressed it mostly because it seems to be the variable that is most consistent. And perhaps the most difficult to affect beyond cleanliness, bore polish, and lubrication. Drilling holes will have some effect. Not really clear on that path yet. There are arguments going on in my head about many small holes vs a few larger holes. And then where to end them before the not drilled area? Any opinions?

I think another important factor is that the bb stays on its seat till the piston clears the holes.
That is likely a factor of the strength of the magnetic field vs letting the displaced air out of the vent holes.

I’m quite excited by these possibilities! Thx again to Mauser lover for this new path of development!

Idle thought #2
I haven’t read the GTA threads yet, but am very interested! Real data would be very useful.

Someone had posted a reference to the 1938 RR of the early 70’s. Its kind of a hybrid machine. I have a very rough one that I plan on modifying significantly. I think it may have the most potential of the lever actions for a very nice repeater with a high mv. Not sure that it would ever be a 400fps shooter but close. If anyone is interested, I will be happy to discuss that project. The perforated air chamber may be called for. That, in my mind, may be a real game changer!

There is also the relationship of a perforated air chamber and the air tube displacing the bb prematurely. A delicate balance to be sure!
 
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