The Caliber Wars! Myths Vs. Reality.

Jath said:

Kachuk, are you arguing that 9mm is the best round out there?

seriously?

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Heck no, I perfer a 40 as I have said many times before. I would use a 10mm if I could find one that fit my hand right. I am nowhere near recoil shy and can shoot high powerd weapons fast and accuratly.
I am just making the case that the 5.7 is NOT a replacement for more proven handgun rounds. Though as I have also said before, there is no doubt that the 5.7 is a capable little defence round no doubt about it. I would even argue that it is much more effective then other sissy kickers like the 32 and 25 ACP.

The temporary wound cavity by its definition is temporary. It ceases to be after a very short time. What you are left with is the permanent wound cavity.

If it's 1. A wound cavity

2. Permanent

Then it's a Permanent Wound Cavity.

if you compare any of the handgun PWC's with say, a .223, or .308 wound cavity, you'll notice that the rifle wound cavities are much larger.

The Permanent wound cavity is the only important wound cavity.

The human body is heterogeneous, and is not made out of ballistic gelatin. there are airspaces in the chest, and bones, and fat, and muscle. Each of these is of a different density, and has different physical properties. ballistic gelatin is a useful tool, because it gives us a basis to compare. It is not a perfect representation of the human body.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say that after all this turbulence about terminal balistics, the final choice of caliber still comes down to...

Personal preference?

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Yes and no. I wouldn't say so much personal preference, but finding a caliber that suits you. If you need more than 6 rounds (for LE/M situations or SD in gang territory), then a revolver and their associated rounds are not good for you, regardless of your "preference." If you can only shoot a .38 or a 9mm, then regardless of everything posted, one of those two are your best rounds (my Mom falls into this category, and no matter how you build up the .40 or .45, the 9mm will always be better for her).

Use is also something that takes away from preference. Is a caliber likely to stop now, or cause a target to bleed slowly over the next three days? Are you hunting bear or using it for self defense? In the case of bear, choosing a .357 magnum over a 9mm is a lot less preference and a lot more usefulness.

For someone like me, where I anticipate the typical 1-4 shots, and I can handle any of the standard SD calibers, it does come down to preference, but I can also take a more scientific look. Yes, I can handle a .45, but can I fire a 9mm fast enough to make it more efficient than the .45? It depends on how much faster I can shoot the 9 and how I determine the difference in power for the .45. To be honest, I don't think there is a single good system of measurement for how effective a round is at causing a quick physiological stop, so that's where it becomes hard to quantify.

Do you include, and how much stake do you give to:
Energy at Impact
Energy Dump
Expanded Surface Area
Permanent Wound Channel (either cubic inches, or what I'd look at - surface area of the PWC)
Penetration (i.e. 8-12" vs. 12-18" of penetration)
Temporary Wound Channel (which I would argue should only be an afterthought comparison unless it is enough to cause permanent damage)
Rate of Expansion
Rate of Accurate Fire

Some of those overlap, but its not entirely linear. You can come up with complex formulae or simple formulas, but in the end we currently don't have a system set up to give us reliable data on the subject. This is where I think preference really comes in, is where you stake these different factors.

Kachok said:

1 I don't shoot glocks
2 Who carries 31 round mags for self defence?
3 I could handload 9mm to punch through lvIII armor if I wanted to. But why?
4 your S4s are LE only and even the guys on the five and seven forum are griping that they don't get the 2600fps
5 avrage gun fight happens within seven feet, what does trajectory have to do with self defence? A 9mm shoots plenty flat to 50 yards how much further do you need?
6 The "recoil" on a 9mm even a featherweight is a joke, it is hardly noticable.

Oh just in case you did not beleve me about the ultra high SD penatrators here is a pic, ask any tanker what they do. Now eat those words

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Wow, you are shameless...

You post this:

Kachok said:

My point stands yet unchallenged that the 5.7 pistol will not do anything that a modern 9mm cannot do just as well if not better.

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Then I post this:

G|0cKbYtE said:

lololololololol You make this too easy.

The FiveseveN pistol is:

1) Lighter than an empty Glock when FULLY LOADED with 21 rounds.

2) Is shorter than ANY 9mm pistol when carrying 31 rounds.

3) Shoots civilian-legal ammo that penetrates Level IIIa armor.

4) Enjoys rifle velocities out of a 4.75" barrel (S4M/S4 Ultra Raptor) 2,600FPS

5) Is unbelievably flat-shooting allowing accuracy that is unheard of in other platforms.

6) Has minimal recoil allowing ultra-fast follow up shots from less-than-expert shooters.

Just stop man... seriously.. lol

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Then you respond with this?

Kachok said:

1 I don't shoot glocks, too bulky...

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Can you see what you did there? You made an asinine statement, then when you were proven wrong, you tossed up another red herring... lololol


Okay, now to start the whole silly cycle again.. LOL

Kachok said:

1 I don't shoot glocks

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Okay, that is nice to know rolleyes, but weight is an advantage when carrying a sidearm and the FiveseveN is the lightest... 9mm ammo weighs twice as much as 5.7x28mm.

Kachok said:

2 Who carries 31 round mags for self defence?

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Police, military, those that don't want to carry extra mags around on their belt. Hardly anyone (but you) would argue that a 31 round capacity, in a manageable sized magazine, is not an advantage over other pistols.

Kachok said:

3 I could handload 9mm to punch through lvIII armor if I wanted to. But why?

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I don't know... perhaps that the bullet behavior would be akin to an ice-pick through flesh? - exactly the reason NATO wanted a new platform? The FiveseveN will penetrate IIIa easily and still create 4+ inch would channels behind the armor.

And if you want to know why a police officer, military member, or citizen would want a round that penetrates armor (and other hard barriers).. umm... I can't help you. Start reading the paper every now and then..

Kachok said:

4 your S4s are LE only and even the guys on the five and seven forum are griping that they don't get the 2600fps

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This was taken directly from the owner of Elite Ammunition:

Alright Guys I wanted to give you a heads up that we will be opening the S4M available for purchasing for the last time for the 2011 year starting Saturday October 15th thru Monday October 31st.

There will be no maximum purchase of 2 boxes. It will be as many as you will like to purchase. They are great Christmas gifts, so you may want to hint to your loved ones

They will not be immediately shipping out as we will have to load them, but they will go out before the 1st of December. They will probably go out before then but I want to cover all my bases

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Now would you please stop deliberately making libelous comments about EA's ammunition. It is illegal you know - even on the internet.

Kachok said:

5 avrage gun fight happens within seven feet, what does trajectory have to do with self defence? A 9mm shoots plenty flat to 50 yards how much further do you need?

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I don't know, you didn't say self-defense when you made your outrageous claim:

Kachok said:

My point stands yet unchallenged that the 5.7 pistol will not do anything that a modern 9mm cannot do just as well if not better.

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The FiveseveN is obviously more accurate. Longer ranges are beneficial to police as well as military and on rare occasions, the civilian in self-defense scenarios. However, the FiveseveN could be used for SHTF situations for hunting when a rifle isn't available. Plus, people that shoot the FiveseveN are blown away at their groupings from un-pistol-like distances. That would indeed be an advantage would it not?

Kachok said:

6 The "recoil" on a 9mm even a featherweight is a joke, it is hardly noticable.

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This is incorrect. It is definitely noticeable. And if you took an average shooter and had him make follow-up shots with a typical 9mm and then the FiveseveN his jaw would drop.

Probably one of the single greatest advantages of the FiveseveN is the recoil and ability to make accurate follow-up shots. There are zero practical carry pistols that can reliably one-shot-stop an assailant. That necessitates the need for multiple shots. There is no pistol available today that combines the tissue-damaging ability of the FiveseveN WITH the kind of unbelievable control that makes tight-patterned triple-taps a cinch. It's almost too easy..

I am sorry, but I have a real hard time taking anyone seriously who thinks that high sectional density bullets hinder penatration As I have said twice already there is a 9mm round that out penatrates anything the 5.7 has to offer, 8mm of steel in case you forgot. Recoil is subjective, if you never shot a gun before you might think a 25 is harsh, a 9mm is a sissy kicker for an experenced shooter. I won't even give the rest of that trash the dignity a reaponce. Tag you are it.
Just in case anyone else out that doubts that G|0cKbYtE does not know what the heck he is talking about here is a nice quote from a reputable source.

Sectional density (SD) is the numerical result of a calculation that compares a bullet's weight to its diameter. To calculate a bullet's sectional density divide the bullet's weight (in pounds) by its diameter (in inches), squared. The higher the SD number the better the SD, and the heavier a bullet is in proportion to its diameter. SD is important because it has a significant effect on penetration. Other things being equal (like impact velocity, bullet design and material, etc.) the higher the SD number, the better the bullet's penetration. In other words, a skinny bullet of a given weight tends to penetrate better than a fat bullet of the same weight, because it concentrates the same force on a smaller area of the target. For example, if other factors are equal, a 150 grain .270 bullet will penetrate better than a 150 grain .35 caliber bullet.

I for one would never trust the oppinion of anyone who would make such a basic and fundimental mistake, that is like "holding the gun backwards" dumb. Don't feel bad I see alot of that kind of faulty logic in the 5.7 junkies, I would expect no less.

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KACHOK - Do not derail this thread with you illogical anti 5.7 rhetoric. We have been through this debate with YOU, specifically, in several threads now. Let it go.

Still no anwser to my questions, do you care to give it a try? My posts are hardly rhetoric, I am following a very scientific method, the bogus claims of the 5.7 crowd might qualify for that though. While you yourself have never been insulting, several of these guys have, and I am going to hold their feet to the fire using their own statements so they never do it again. That is not cruel or unfair is it? Besides this thread is called caliber wars, were they expecting me to sit back and have the same ole same ole misinformation circulate again without countering it?

BTW the 124gr bullet that I posted the link to is more powerful then any of the 9mm loads your dye pack tested

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You're looking at the dyed temporary cavity in that test, nothing more. The permanent cavity is not even visible in the test you linked. When the 9mm's permanent cavity is not dyed, it actually looks like this:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2449.htm

Miniscule.

Because it is designed to start destabalizing on impact which kills it's performance going through car doors, sheetrock, plywood and the sort. Lightweight high speed spritzers also deflect on car glass, simply not enough mass and momentum to keep then in a streight line. These are all common situations for LE officers and the 5.7 would fail them, and would fail you too.

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Completely false, and we're not discussing FN's watered down 5.7x28mm loads (i.e. SS190) anyway.

Sales of EAs high performance 5.7x28 ammunition has been restricted to LE only!

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Completely and utterly false.

Their ammunition is still available to civilians. Did you make that up hoping someone reading this thread would fall for it?

Is that really suposed to impress me, shooting them behing the ear is nothing, I saw a mature hog killed by an pellet rifle yesterday with that shot placement.

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Actually, that deer was shot once with FN's watered down SS197SR load, from 70 yards, and the bullet went through a rib, expanded, and took out its lungs and heart.

http://truehuntersupply1.blogspot.com/2010/12/deer-kill.html

Sorry.

your S4s are LE only

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Again, completely false. You're spouting misinformation.

BTW there is a little 9mm round called the 7N31 that not only defeats LvIII body armor but also 8mm thick steel plates

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Again, you failed to cite a source. No one cares what you "heard." Furthermore, the load you mention is unobtainable anyway.

OK instead of continuing just asking the 5.7 guys to explain their crazy statements, let me put the nail in the coffin for them. A head to head comparison done in the same lab, using the same ballistic gel with no room for bias. Neither of these is the most potent performance for either, but both are above avarage, a 28gr 5.7x28 at 2400fps and a 124 gr 9mm at 1180 fps. The great part of this is they are near identical energy levels, so we are looking head to head the speed of the 5.7 and the caliber/momentum of the 9mm. Now the 5.7 can be steped up 47 more ft/lbs in it's highest performance ammo, but the 9mm can be juiced 116 more ft/lbs so if either has more room for improvement it is the 9mm. Enough with the details let's take a look.
Clearly the 9mm penatrated much deeper, has a larger PWC and "bruised" a greater volume of the surrounding simulated tissue. A clear victory no matter how you guage performance.
Edit, I read a message on the five and seven forum from EA that they would not be selling S4 ammo to the genral public anymore, you had to be able to prove you were LE to buy it, if that was a hoax I don't know but it sounded offical. I will look deeper into it, but as we can see here even with a few more fps the 5.7 would still be in deep touble especaly if you compared it to the 500 ft/lbs buffalo bore.

OK instead of continuing just asking the 5.7 guys to explain their crazy statements, let me put the nail in the coffin for them.

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Again, you're looking at the dyed temporary cavity in that 9mm test, nothing more. The permanent cavity is not even visible in the test you linked. When the 9mm's temporary/permanent cavities are not dyed, they actually looks like this:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2449.htm

Miniscule.

Meanwhile, this is what the 5.7x28mm (watered down) SS190's temporary cavity looks like when dyed in the same fashion as the 9mm you just linked:

Temporary cavitation does not matter much. Flesh is very elastic and it is only the permanent channel that matters.

Wrong it is not filled with dye, that is the way it was shot, if you notice the PWC is still transparnet throughout aka not dyed, try again.

I read a message on the five and seven forum from EA that they would not be selling S4 ammo to the genral public anymore, you had to be able to prove you were LE to buy it, if that was a hoax I don't know but it sounded offical.

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No, you didn't. They sell S4 to civilians and will continue to do so.

that is the way it was shot, if you notice the PWC is still transparnet throughout aka not dyed, try again.

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Wrong.

The permanent wound cavity is not even visible at all in the photo you linked. You're looking at the dyed temporary cavity, which means nothing.

I see it clear as day mabey you need your eyes checked. How exactly wound they dye the TWC without getting any dye in the PWC? The gel block has the lighting behind it which makes the fractures more plainly visable, but no dye.
If the 5.7x28 cannot match the performance of an over the counter 9mm, what would make anyone think that it could top the high end 40, 45, 357 or 10mm rounds?
The 5.7 is a suitable defence round but far from a super gun.

I see it clear as day mabey you need your eyes checked.

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You see the temporary cavity clear as day in that test because it is dyed and/or backlit for enhanced contrast and visibility. For comparison, 5.7x28mm with the same treatment:

Heavy dye and backlit are not even close to the same thing, and your test is not from the same source like mine was, let's keep the science accurate as possable, fair enough?

Heavy dye and backlit are not even close to the same thing

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Yes they are. They both greatly increase the visibility and contrast of the temporary cavity (again, you're looking at the temporary cavity, nothing more). Regardless, the 9mm temporary cavity you posted was dyed and backlit. You saw for yourself what the 9mm's permanent/temporary cavities look like without the visibility treatment:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2449.htm

Miniscule.

LOL that is a different bullet dumkove. That is a sissy pressure slow as heck 147gr at 880fps, try reading before you post. Here is a backlit 5.7x28 for you, no it is not the same test, but just for contrast. Please note the lack of spiral bruising like the 9mm had.
Like I said before, it failed the FBI tests and nobody else in the civi market wants it, think there might be a reason for that?

5.7 is garbage... The LEA's that have been involved in OIS's with that weapon have ditched it in favor of 5.56's all day long. I know of no military or NGO that carries that weapon for any reason. But believe what you will...

I'm from the Vicker's school of thought. If you can carry JHP ammo the 9mm is great. You get more capacity, decent sized holes, and faster follow ups. If FMJ is all you can carry go with the .45acp and pray.

(I am paraphrasing something he said on one of the Spike sunday morning gun shows lst year.)

Even the FBI admitted that figuring temporary wound cavity in to the decision process for ammo was a mistake. Things get pushed around but pretty much end up right back in place. The human body is very elastic and 500lb/ft of force really isn't hard for it to absorb. Football players, boxers, martial artist, and soccer players all get hit harder with little or no long term effect. What matters is permenant wound cavity. For the initial shock to be enough to cause hydrostatic shock and enlarge the permenant wound cavity takes much more than any common defense caliber delivers.

That is the truth about wounding. At least it is according to the FBI and International Wound Ballistics Association. Actually besides a few Marshal and Sanow acolytes it is pretty much the commonly accepted position of most doctors and scientist.

Here is something from Col. (Ret.) Eas Bokhari. He was reporting on finding presented at the 1998 International Defence Review in Geneva.

There are two very common misconceptions about the temporary cavity. The first one being that the tissue adjacent to the projectile path was forced aside at a speed equivalent to that of the bullet or even greater. By measuring the distance travelled by the projectile and comparing it to that travelled by the walls of temporary cavity, it is found that the tissue is displaced at a speed less than one-tenth of the projectile.

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So, that bullet is basically transfering 1/10th the energy to the tissue in the temporary cavity. Instead of 400lb/ft the temporary cavity is recieving about 40lb/ft. Not exactly powerhouse numbers.

April 98 Defence Journal

Also read What is Wrong With The Wound Ballistics Literature by Martin L. Fackler and The FBI Report Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness.

There is a lot of research on the subject by doctors, engineers, and other professionals. They all pretty much say that the area contacted is the only area damaged untill you get in to rifles. Even then extreme damage from hydrostatic shock is still rare. It is better to have a rifle round that yaws upon entry or fragments somewhat than to rely on hydrostatic shock.

Do your research and it becomes simple. A bigger hole is better if you can effectively control the gun and ensure good marksmanship. The only promised stop is the destruction of the upper spine and base of the brain. Other than that it is a matter of making the person decide to stop or bleed out.

That is where it becomes personal choice. Do you prefer a .45acp that might allow you three shots in a given time, or a 9mm that allows four or five in the same time frame. The .45acp will do more damage with a single shot, but you might get a greater total wound volume with multiple shots of 9mm.

In other words, it all comes down to what trade offs you are willing to make. Just make sure that you can reach the vitals from adverse angles and carry daily.

A good point about the Fort Hood shooting and the quick access to medical help. Unfortunately, 13 still didn't make it..

One thing to keep in mind in regards to the Five-seveN's effectiveness at Fort Hood is the near immediate response of first aid. If there weren't so many people being attended to so quickly by qualified first-aid providers, more deaths would surely have followed. People were actually putting compresses on wounds during the active shooting. The whole ordeal lasted around 10mins and from the eyewitness accounts, there was blood everywhere with some wounds "spurting" like a "garden soaker hose".

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A good point about the Fort Hood shooting and the quick access to medical help. Unfortunately, 13 still didn't make it.

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The victims were not shot by some kid robber or gang-banger; they were shot by a dedicated and trained assassin.

the media got all in a flutter here about "cop killer" hardware, too.

Remember Black Talon rounds? Remember how it was all media hype? Remember that they are actually a few generations behind top-end ammo now?
And there are still idiots paying $4/round at gunshows for partial boxes of obsolete ammo ... media hype does not equal effective ammunition or weaponry.

And there are still idiots paying $4/round at gunshows for partial boxes of obsolete ammo

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There are a lot of guys paying top-dollar for obsolete guns, too. They're called "collectors."

I still have some Black Talon in 10, .357, .44. It was one of the first "controlled" (delayed) expansion rounds, and was great for handgun hunting (not so great for LE or SD). But once it became "rare" I stopped shooting it so I could look at the pretty black bullets.

:banghead: