The Caliber Wars! Myths Vs. Reality.

[Loosedhorse]

DmL5, your responses are not refutations of my statements. For example, this one

Everyone knows human anatomy well enough to know that a headshot or COM shot kills more efficiently than a gut shot or limb shot.

is beside the point: there are gut shots and limb shots that are as rapidly fatal as COM shots, and a physician knows that.

Zero experience with handguns? Citation, please. (If it matters: we all agree he trained with the FN.) He spent 8 years during school as an enlisted soldier; yet you say he had "virtually no experience shooting guns." Okay.

The eyewitnesses also say he was calm and deliberate.

Shots rang out at the readiness center for as long as 30 minutes, said soldiers, who described the fire as continuous, methodical and well aimed.

(The actual duration of the shooting was closer to 10 minutes, but I can understand it seeming longer to those under fire.)

 

[Skribs]

Instead of posting the entire article, could you only quote the relevant parts? That is a ton of information, most of which just says "a person was shot with this gun and killed." Most of the pictures do not help the discussion and just take a ton of bandwidth, and all of the spanish parts are irrelevant if directly translated to English. Thus, I skimmed through the wall of text, and gleaned no useful information.

Source your information, but present it in a concise manner. Don't just copy+paste everything. It's not nitpicking, it's effective research.

I'm looking for sourced statistics, not 20 pages of pictures and articles. Like I said earlier, the only statistic I've seen for sure is that 100% of people murdered by the 5.7 were killed by the 5.7.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

The eyewitnesses also say he was calm and deliberate

That was due to the "allahu akbar" effect. Those guys put themselves in a trance before they kill. They believe they are instruments of God and are delivering his vengeance. It has proven to be a very deadly fantasy in suicide killings across the world. How often do you hear of one backing out...?

 

[leeroy71]

How did a seemingly sensible thread morph into this? I almost forget the original premiss. Remember this is The High Road. Not an anti-gun site. Lets leave the grotesque photos for the morbid and less informed.

Now, what were we talking about?

 

[Loosedhorse]

An Army psychiatrist isn't a trained, dedicated assassin.

Of course not. But Hasan was. Medical schools still teach gross anatomy, even to students who will eventually become psychiatrists.

So to say someone who is in a medical profession in the army, who likely practices once a year with an M-16, is a trained assassin...

Again, "someone" in the medical corps is not an assassin; Hasan was. And we now seem to have consensus that he was trained in anatomy and use of weapons...as I said.

are highly trained, super-sniper, killer assassassains!!!

Sarcasm shows you know you're incorrect, and so you are trying to build a strawman out of things I did not say.

I did not claim he was a highly trained sniper; only a dedicated, trained assassin. We can document his training; and his dedication during his assassinations is evident. And he showed us what can be done by such a person, using a 5.7.

(If I were into similar sarcasm, I would ask if you believe that the ability to "bend bullets"--or to look like Angelina Jolie!--is the mark of a trained assassin.)

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

Instead of posting the entire article, could you only quote the relevant parts? That is a ton of information, most of which just says "a person was shot with this gun and killed." Most of the pictures do not help the discussion and just take a ton of bandwidth, and all of the spanish parts are irrelevant if directly translated to English. Thus, I skimmed through the wall of text, and gleaned no useful information.

Source your information, but present it in a concise manner. Don't just copy+paste everything. It's not nitpicking, it's effective research.

I'm looking for sourced statistics, not 20 pages of pictures and articles. Like I said earlier, the only statistic I've seen for sure is that 100% of people murdered by the 5.7 were killed by the 5.7.

I'm sorry, it was a lot of work compiling the data (of which DML I believe was the original researcher - the man is a machine) and bringing it over here. I cannot spoon-feed you the bits and pieces you want. This is just multiple articles of the Five-seveN in action on the street. Take from it what you will.

 

[easyg]

1. Hasan is a psychiatrist: an MD. He knows human anatomy intimately, and therefore knows how to kill efficiently.

You would be surprised at how many MD's have forgotten much of their human anatomy once out of med school.
And more would know what drugs can kill a human than the best places to shoot a person.

2. Hasan joined the Army immediately after high school; I've never been in the Army, but I am told they have some sort of weapons training.

I don't think he joined the Army right after high school.
Maybe after college and med school perhaps???
Either way, yes Soldiers are trained to use weapons....some recieve more training than others once beyound Basic, some less.
As a psychiatrist in the Army Hasan would have recieved training with the M16 (or whatever rifle they are using these days) and perhaps training with the Beretta pistol.

As he was 39 at the time of his murders, I'm guessing he had been trained as a killer for more than 3 1/2 weeks, despite your erroneous claim.

He probably joined the Army after med school and was probably already in his 30's....probably in for less than 8 years.
During his enlistment the average medical officer will only go to the rifle and pistol range maybe twice a year.
And each range trip he would probably only send about 50-100 rounds down range.

Even had your claim been correct, training is training, so any training makes him a trained assassin. As I said.

NO medical officer in the U.S. Army is a "trained assassin".
They recieve BASIC rifle marksmanship and BASIC pistol marksmanship.
And on the range it does not matter where you hit your target....as long as you hit the target it counts as a "hit", even if the target is barely nicked.
Soldiers aren't trained to aim for vital organs...they are trained to aim center-of-mass to increase the odds of a hit.

So, his heinous acts at Fort Hood show us what a trained, dedicated assassin can do with a 5.7, whether you agree or not.

Nonsense!
Hasan's actions at Ft. Hood only shows what an armed islamic extremist can do when shooting in to a crowded room filled with unarmed people.

A wild shooting spree does not equate to an "assassination".

It takes virtually no training whatsoever for one to walk in to a crowed room and start shooting people, regardless of the handgun used.

I don't kow about you. I have had been pronounced (along with the rest of my class) a "trained killer" at the end of three different week-long self-defense classes, by the head instructor. Maybe they were joking.

I sure hope the instructor was joking when he said that!
In fact, I cannot imagine any instructor who was worth a dime making such a stupid statement.

Three weeks of self defense class does not make anyone a "killer".
There have been plenty of instances where those with YEARS of training couldn't pull the trigger at the moment of truth.

I don't even agree that three weeks of self defense class necessarily makes one capable of self defense.



Easy

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

Of course not. But Hasan was. Medical schools still teach gross anatomy, even to students who will eventually become psychiatrists.Again, "someone" in the medical corps is not an assassin; Hasan was. And we now seem to have consensus that he was trained in anatomy and use of weapons...as I said.Sarcasm shows you know you're incorrect, and so you are trying to build a strawman out of things I did not say.

I did not claim he was a highly trained sniper; only a dedicated, trained assassin. We can document his training; and his dedication during his assassinations is evident. And he showed us what can be done by such a person, using a 5.7.

(If I were into similar sarcasm, I would ask if you believe that the ability to "bend bullets"--or to look like Angelina Jolie!--is the mark of a trained assassin.)

Multiple assassinations he did commit. A "highly trained assassin", he was not. A very capable platform for his skill-set he did have.

Do I sound like Yoda?

 

[Loosedhorse]

A "highly trained assassin", he was not.

Why the quotes? I said "they were shot by a dedicated and trained assassin." Not highly trained.

So, now we agree, except for the sarcasm and strawmen.

The platform selection seems to have been mostly made for capacity (and concealability).

 

[easyg]

Why the quotes? I said "they were shot by a dedicated and trained assassin." Not highly trained.

Again, NO medical officer in the U.S. Army is a "trained assassin".

That you even think this to be true shows your lack of knowledge.

 

[Kachok]

Speaking as a US Army Vet I can tell you that you will not pass boot camp until you are well trained in shooting, when I went through we had to qualify at 300 yards with iron sights, why anyone would think that his shooting was sloppy is beyond me. He was good no doubt, but not quite as good as that MP who took him out with a 9.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

Okay, this might be the post that confused an administrator earlier. I will preface it by giving a little background as to its source and the permissions I believe I have posting it here.

The following quotes are survivor's testimony in Hasan's article 32 hearing. They are public record and available to those that want to do some research. This hearing was discussed on fnforum.net and I have permission from the poster who compiled some of the relevant quotes to post it on here. I have found no copyright issue to exist with the following testimonies.

http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/10/14/fort-hood-survivors-testify-major-nidal-malik-hasa/

SGT. ALONZO M. LUNSFORD JR. 20 year Army veteran (worked at the Soldier Readiness Center )
"His first targets were members of the unit Hasan was scheduled to deploy with
to Afghanistan. I saw a physicians assistant lift a chair over his head to try and
stop Hasan and the Major turned, fired and brought the man down."

"I was in a crouched position, then prone, searching for a way out, then decided to
make a run for the exit."

When I got up Major Hasan and I made eye contact, he brings his weapon over
me - "He looked at me, I looked at him.

"The laser comes across my line of sight. And I closed my eyes. And I get hit
in the head, I spin around. turned toward the door, took two steps and dropped
and I hit the floor."

"The left side of my face was on the ground and I felt blood pooling around me,
but I could still see Hasan with my right eye. I did a "self assessment, realized I
could move my hands and feet, got up and ran out the doors."

A tough cookie. He lost half of his face.

MICHELLE HARPER (CIVILIAN ARMY EMPLOYEE) LAB TECHNICIAN
"I could hear the pop of his gunfire, and I saw one solder drop. I realized from
the movements of his body that he had been hit three times."

PFC GEORGE STRATTON
"As soon as I turned I saw Maj. Hasan behind me. He was holding an older-fashioned
pistol. As soon as I looked at him, he brought his magazine up and loaded it. He looked
straight down at me, we made eye contact, and he brought his weapon down toward me.
I turned on him, and the weapon fired. It hit me in the left shoulder, my arm went limp."
"I couldn't feel it at all."

"I then hit the ground, and crawled as fast as he could to the door."

Rounds from the FiveseveN seem to be devastating against hard objects like bones. They usually penetrate instead of glancing off.

Some witnesses testified that Michael Grant Cahill, a civilian physician
assistant, and Capt. John Gaffaney, a psychiatric nurse preparing to
deploy to Iraq, each were fatally shot after picking up chairs to try to
stop Hasan.

CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER II CHRISTOPHER ROYAL
Testifying by telephone from Georgia.

"I went to one corner and looked for a way to pounce on the gunman.
I saw Sgt. Alonzo Lunsford run of the same door I escaped from, and
during that time the shooter opened the door before Sergeant Lunsford
got to the parking lot and he shot Sergeant Lunsford, and he fell face
down into the grass."

I'm going to the building, he comes adjacent to the other side and sees me
again, and he starts firing at me. I ran to a sport utility vehicle and took cover.
Hasan bore down, squeezing off rounds. I felt something jump me in the back,
but I wasn't sure what it was. Then I realized I'd been shot in the back."

He was shot in the back while hiding behind a sport utility vehicle? The gun was designed to penetrate. This example is a case in point.

SPC. MEGAN MARTIN 467th Medical Detachment, the combat stress unit
testifying via a video link from Kandahar, Afghanistan
"A captain from my unit charged the gunman with a folding chair. "But he wasn't
fast enough (fighting tears), and he was shot at close range."

"I focused on a man in fatigues and ripple-soled desert boots moving with a
laser-sighted handgun near an area called station 13. The gunman sprayed
bullets at soldiers in a fanlike motion, before taking aim at individual soldiers.

When I saw a soldier near me was bleeding from the mouth, I hit the ground.
But my eyes stayed riveted on the man with the pistol."

This spraying in a fanlike motion is most likely responsible for a lot of the "limb shots" as he was just trying to hit as many people as possible during this period.

SPC. JAMES ARMSTRONG (Shot twice)

"I was in a large seating area when I heard shooting and turned around to see
soldiers being shot and a chair thrown amid rapid gunfire before the shooter
reloaded.

The scene was "the worst horror movie," with wounded soldiers leaving bloody
handprints on walls as they tried to get up and blood pooled on the floor where
they lay dead."

SPC. LOGAN BURNETT reserve combat stress unit

"I saw Capt. John Gaffane try to attack Hasan with a chair."
"I saw that captain fall. Even so, I decided to try to rush the gunman when I
saw a magazine drop from his pistol. "I stood up and grabbed a folding table.
"I turned to throw it toward the shooter. At that point I was struck in the hip
and fell down."

"I was shot twice more, in the elbow and hand, as I tried to crawl for safety
into a cubicle. I glanced backward when I finally fled the building. "There was
no station 13 at that point. There was nothing but chairs scattered everywhere,
bodies scattered everywhere, blood everywhere."

Another devastating bone shot.

STAFF SGT. JOY CLARK 467th Medical Detachment - combat medic and
occupational therapist

"I was sitting between a veteran psychiatric nurse, Lt. Col. Juanita Warman, and
Capt. Russell Seager, when the gunfire erupted, Warman pulled me down to the
ground, and we lay facing each other on the floor of the center.

"Then I heard her cry. I reached over her side to see if I could feel the wound.
And my hand came back bloody. I heard more shots, saw Seager had stopped
moving, felt for the officers' pulses. There were none. I saw a soldier fall in front
of me "convulsing and coughing up blood," and reached to pull him toward me.
That is when she felt a sting in my left forearm, "and I lost my hold on his jacket."

The gunfire shattered her bone.

Another shot to the bone.

CAPT. MELISSA KALE 467th Medical Detachment
Testifying via live feed from Afghanistan

(Crying) Sgt. Amy Krueger, had been shot Nov. 5 after a gunman began
spraying bullets in the Army post's Soldier Readiness Processing Center.

"I wanted to get to the east wall. I tried to pull (her) with me. I was unable
to pull her. She didn't move, so I had to leave her there."

MAJOR ERIC TORINA

"I saw Maj. Libardo Caraveo killed while sitting in the waiting area of the
processing center. "I saw Maj. Caraveo was sitting like he was before,
with his legs crossed and his head down, almost like he was sleeping.
But I noticed a bullet hole in his head that was dripping blood."

This conjures up a very chilling image...

SPC. GRANT MOXON
"I was shot in the leg when I saw my (467th) squad leader go down.
I lay across Staff Sgt. Shawn Manning to protect him from getting hit
again. He was bleeding pretty badly. I kind of tried to help him."

Staff Sgt. Manning survived.

SPC. LANCE AVILES

"There was a loud shout, 'Allahu akbar,' and then gunshots.

"I initially thought the shooting was a training exercise."

Aviles testified to a sense of shocked realization that the attack was real.

"I saw friends and fellow soldiers lying on the floor in pools of blood. I saw a soldier
lying on the floor with part of his skull damaged (the GI later died). One soon died
of a bullet wound to the head. I saw Hasan quickly reload a black handgun.
"I considered trying to tackle Hasan after seeing the left side of my battle buddy's
head blown open. I thought I might be able to charge as the shooter reloaded.
But the gunman switched magazines too quickly. I looked up where the shooter
was and I seen the magazine drop and so when the magazine dropped I got up.
I'm trying to take a left turn to go toward the shooter, and when I took that left turn,
he had already reloaded."

"I jumped under a table...

The advantage, and in this case tragedy, of a semi-automatic firearm with large capacity...

SPC. JOSEPH FOSTER (testifying via video feed from Kandahar,
Afghanistan)

"I was texting a friend."

"The shooter spoke with a "strong, stern voice, like a drill instructor."
"I heard the man shout out "Allahu Akbar" -- Arabic for "God is great"
and then felt the shooter's attention turn to him. The weapon came in
my direction, the laser came across my eyes. I fell to the ground and
I felt sharp pain in my hip."

Bone penetration.

TED COUKOULIS (CIVILIAN NURSE)
"When it was apparent that the shooter had left the building, I rushed to begin treating
the wounded. There was so much blood on the floor, and so many shell casings
submerged in it, that I kept slipping and falling. Soldiers were dying all around station 13.
I saw a lieutenant colonel bleeding out so fast that "it was like a soaker hose you would
have in your garden, the amount of blood coming out in a perfect line."

I had to use my sweat shirt to keep wiping my face because so much blood was spurting
as others gave another dying soldier cardiopulmonary resuscitation."

This is a very graphic account of what the SS192 does to tissue in vital areas.

SGT. 1ST CLASS MARIA GUERRA (BUILDING MANAGER)
"The shooter reloaded three times before moving from the front area, "in one
motion, dropping a magazine and up came another one." After the rampage
ended, I locked the doors to make sure the gunman would not come back
inside. I saw the carnage amid the room darkened by thick smoke from the gunfire.
"All I saw was soldiers, just bodies all over the floor - bodies and blood.
No one was moving."

STAFF SGT. MICHAEL "CHAD" DAVIS
"I was shot in the back as I crawled from beneath a desk."

CROSS EXAMINATION
DEFENSE Attorney Lt. Col. Kris Poppe


STAFF SGT. MICHAEL "CHAD" DAVIS
"I didn't see the shooter, the bullet may have pierced the cubicle wall before
hitting me."

I'm wondering if this didn't happen to a lot of people - 5.7mm bullets flying around a room and cutting through cubicle walls as well as people's limbs and penetrating yet more victims. A cubicle wall as well as a human forearm isn't going to slow a 5.7mm bullet very much at all unless it hits bone.

MAJOR STEPHEN RICHTER (ARMY MEDICAL CORPS)
testifying via video link from South Korea
"I thought the rapid rate of gunfire meant there was more than one shooter.

A testament to how deadly a weapon, with little recoil, allowing such easy follow up shots, can be. I propose had he used a traditional caliber weapon, that he would have fired much fewer shots in the short time during his murderous rampage. I guess this statement is obvious as there are few if any weapons that can match the FiveseveN's capacity. But, if we temporarily allow equal capacity among all firearm choices, I think the 5-7's recoil would still have allowed more shots fired regardless of the traditional caliber choice. I also think fatigue would have set into his wrist causing his aim to suffer dramatically with larger calibers. I don't care who you are, 146 shots of .40 or .45 caliber loads in less than 10 mins. is going to turn your hand numb.

What am I trying to prove with all of this? I guess I am just responding to those who would say that we are lucky that Hasan didn't choose a more "potent" caliber pistol. As sick as it sounds, considering the shooters experience, amount of damage intended, short period of time to do it, I say he picked the "best" weapon he could have, short of a fully-automatic smg.

OFFICER KIMBERLY MUNLEY
When she first saw the gunman walking with his gun extended, I couldn’t get a clear
shot at him because so many soldiers were running behind him. “I did not want any friendly fire.”

The gunman retreated behind a building, she testified, so I went to a corner and got in a prone position to wait for a clear shot. Before long, the gunman came toward me, shooting, so I fired back, aiming for the gunman’s “center mass” in a bid “to stop the threat.”

"I took cover behind a building whose rainspout was peppered by Hasan's gunshots, spraying me with shrapnel. Shards of metal from the gutter hit me in one hand. I could see the gunman round the corner and closing on me.

“I quickly got up, got into a shooting stance,” I fired back, aiming for "center mass,"
I got hit in the thigh first, and I believe that started to take me down. My Beretta 9 mm
handgun had jammed just as the second bullet hit me in the knee and knocked
me to the ground.

He moved away from me and encountered Officer Todd, who ordered Hasan several
times to drop his gun."

Kimberly Munley had surgery for wounds in her hand, hip and included a femur
shattered into 120 pieces,

Again, devastating bone damage.

"I couldn’t get a clear
shot at him because so many soldiers were running behind him. “I did not want any friendly fire."

That's a good thing because she certainly couldn't shoot very well. Her weapon carried 14 rounds (including the round in the chamber) and she missed him with all her shots. She wasn't further from him than 7 yards.

The bad guy had the FiveseveN, the good (girl) had the Beretta 9mm. The bad guy was shot zero times from close range, the good girl was shot 2 or 3 times with injuries to her wrist, knee, and leg. It was also reported that her gun jammed as she was falling to the ground when her leg was shattered. Perhaps if she would have been firing the FiveseveN things would have turned out differently for her? Dare I say this against the "vaunted" 9mm Beretta?

OFFICER MARK TODD

"I arrived at the processing center parking lot shortly after Officer Munley.
As I ran up a small rise, following my partner, I could hear so much gunfire
echoing around the four buildings that it sounded like “thousands of rounds going off.”

"I too was directed to the gunman by soldiers."

When I spotted the gunman, I shouted repeated commands to surrender, but the
gunman opened fire. The gunman retreated around a corner of the building,
and I then heard more volleys that sounded like they were coming from different
weapons.

"I followed and soon saw the gunman standing by a telephone pole."

20 feet away from the downed and wounded Officer Munley, trying to crawl
for her weapon, Officer Mark Todd confronts the gunman.

I challenged him — 'Halt! Military police! Drop your weapon

At that moment, I saw the gunman's red targeting laser fixed on me.
The gunman got off several shots.

I returned fire five times from my Beretta M9 semiautomatic pistol.

"I seen him wince a couple times. He collapsed and slid down against
a telephone pole. "I ran up, rushed him. I kicked the weapon
away, flipped him over to handcuff him and placed him in hand irons."

I began emergency medical treatment. I started checking his vitals to try to
save his life.

Emergency rescue crews then took over, and I left the gunman to help
wounded soldiers. But fire, I recovered a semiautomatic pistol, a revolver
and several magazines loaded with rounds.

When I reached into Hasan’s pants pockets, I found he still had an arsenal,
loaded magazines for his Herstal semiautomatic and an unused revolver
along with a cellphone."

The revolver apparently was not fired during the rampage.

Officer Todd, the one that hit Hasan in the CNS and crippled him, said he shot at Hasan under fire but there are conflicting accounts of what really happened. In the following article, an eye witness stated that Todd caught up with Hasan after "rounding a building" and shot him while Hasan was reloading his FiveseveN. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/us/13hood.html?pagewanted=all It could very well be that Hasan was taken out by a shot to the back.

The issue of who took out Hasan was also controversial as all "official accounts" during the first few days had Munley taking Hasan out. Later we learn that she missed him completely. I'm thinking there was some manufacturing of the hero to make things look as good as possible for whatever reason. The bad guy was taken down, that is all that mattered.

FREDERICK BRANNON (Former Salesman at the Guns Galore in Killeen, Tx)
"Nidal Hasan walked into the area's largest gun store, Guns Galore. He drew
attention by asking which handgun in the store was "the most high-tech."
The manager, after a little head scratching, came up with the FN 5.7 pistol."
Hasan left that day, saying that he had to look up the weapon. The next day,
Aug. 1, 2009, he bought the gun, an expensive laser sight, several magazine
extenders and boxes of the armor-piercing ammo. That, too, was odd because
Hasan took out a cell phone and made a video of the manager's demonstration
of how to load the new pistol, remove its magazine and break it down for cleaning.

"I'd never seen any other customer make such a video. Hasan said that "he wanted
to review it later."

"Hasan was told that the SS192 cartridges were becoming less available and that
once the store exhausted its supply, Hasan would have to buy a less penetrating
version."

"Hasan reappeared every week or two to buy more magazines, magazine extenders
and four or five boxes of ammo – usually the penetrating 55192 rounds and extra
magazines for the gun.

"When I asked Hasan why he was buying so many magazines, Hasan told him he
didn't like spending time loading magazines at the shooting range and preferred to
have a large supply."

"Hasan bought a top-end green laser sight for daytime shooting."

SPC WILLIAM GILBERT
"I was browsing at the store and I was asked to tell Hasan about the
weapon, because I own a Herstal FN 5.7. I "tried to kind of feel [Hasan]
out" about what he would do with a handgun. Hasan was vague, saying
that he wanted something high-tech with the biggest magazine possible."
"He did not know what he was looking for. He did not know about handguns."

"Based on Hasan's requirements — he wanted something technologically
advanced and with a large magazine capacity — I advised Hasan to buy
the FN 5-7, which uses magazines that can be extended to hold 30 rounds.
It's extremely lightweight and very, very, very accurate. It's easy to fire and
has minimal recoil."

"I own the same weapon and am a gun aficionado."

"I explained that the FN had a 20-round magazine capable of being fitted
with extenders to hold 30 bullets. The gun was light and "very, very easy
to fire with one hand, like shooting a .22." I explained that one of the
weapon's three types of ammunition, the 55192 round, had such penetrating
capabilities that authorities ordered it off the market after existing stocks were
sold. I told Hasan that the round was thought to be able to penetrate Kevlar
armor and expand on hitting flesh, "basically liquefying anything ... in that area."

"I spent nearly an hour talking to Hasan."

 

[Loosedhorse]

You would be surprised at how many MD's have forgotten much of their human anatomy once out of med school.

Like where the heart, CNS, and major vessels are?

I don't think he joined the Army right after high school.

You are wrong. You could check several sources. But you didn't, and somehow feel justified introducing your own false "facts."

NO medical officer in the U.S. Army is a "trained assassin".

Hassan was. He was a Medical Officer, he was trained, he is an assassin. Your statement is false on its face.

Soldiers aren't trained to aim for vital organs

Then this is where is his medical training wold have kicked in?

A wild shooting spree does not equate to an "assassination".

No, but this was not a wild shooting spree; it was a well planned killing (of many persons) for political reasons.

But it was not an assassination?

t takes virtually no training whatsoever

Immaterial. I stated he had training, not that it took training.

Perhaps, if John Wilkes Booth was not highly trained, then he also was not an assassin?

Three weeks of self defense class does not make anyone a "killer".

No; but it makes them trained.

I don't even agree that three weeks of self defense class necessarily makes one capable of self defense.

Ah, you would perhaps require--what--six months before someone is allowed to purchase a gun for self-defense?

(Strawman; withdrawn. Used to highlight your indefensibly elitist attitude toward what is necessary for a person to be "capable" of self-defense.)

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

The platform selection seems to have been mostly made for capacity (and concealability).

The Five-seveN pistol is a full-size pistol. It would not be considered ideal for concealability. However, if by platform selection you mean that he choose the portability of a pistol with the capacity of an assault rifle then I agree. Hasan chose the about the best weapon he could have for the terrible task he had planned. Easy to shoot, deadly bullet, and 30 round mags.

 

[Kachok]

Wait just a darn second whoo says soldiers are not trained to aim for the vital organs? So those guys on SEAL team 6 did one to the heart and one to the head because they saw it on a movie right? LOL
Sure we are trained to aim COM when shooting long range, but that in no way means we are not trained to kill efficiently close up.

 

[Mike1234567]

This "Might" Be An Appropriate Link Here?

 

[Skribs]

I'm sorry, it was a lot of work compiling the data (of which DML I believe was the original researcher - the man is a machine) and bringing it over here. I cannot spoon-feed you the bits and pieces you want. This is just multiple articles of the Five-seveN in action on the street. Take from it what you will.

If you wanted to answer the question, "can the 5-7 kill", there are much better ways of doing so.

If you are answering the question, "how does the 5-7 compare to a _____" (such as a 9mm, .45, .357, or even 5.56x45mm), then you posted several screens worth of nothing. I just saw a bunch of copy+pasted+translated information from the media. I didn't see scientific methodology, statistics, or any discernable conclusion. Just that a lot of people were shot and killed with the 5.7, and no information as to how many people were not killed with it.

I'm not asking you to spoonfeed me information. I'm asking you to post information relevant to the discussion. It's called staying on topic. You add a whole lot of fluff without posting anything to compare the 5.7 to another caliber, or show actual statistics on the 5.7. I could easily find articles about the 9mm or the .45, or even the .22. That doesn't mean I can put your articles on one side, mine on the other, and then compare. It would boil down to a my-dad-is-better-than-your-dad argument, because we wouldn't have any statistics to compare or scientific studies comparing the two. Just a lot of articles which prove that 100% of people murdered by X caliber were killed by X caliber.

Kachok, how well does someone retain their ability to shoot accurately if they don't practice after basic?

 

[Loosedhorse]

The Five-seveN pistol is a full-size pistol.

And therefore more concealable than a rifle.

 

[easyg]

Loosedhorse, you are only embarrassing yourself.
Your lack of knowledge concerning the U.S. Army's weapons training for medical officers is glaringly obvious.
Medical officers are not "trained assassins".
The very notion is just stupid.

Wait just a darn second whoo says soldiers are not trained to aim for the vital organs? So those guys on SEAL team 6 did one to the heart and one to the head because they saw it on a movie right? LOL

U.S. Army soldiers are not Navy SEALS, and they don't receive the same training either.
Hasan was not Special Forces, nor was he a Navy SEAL.

Sure we are trained to aim COM when shooting long range, but that in no way means we are not trained to kill efficiently close up.

I was a soldier for six years and I have never been in any unit that was specifically trained to shoot at vital organs.
Of course soldiers are not robots....they actually think for themselves....and I've seen plenty of guys specifically aiming for the head of the target despite being trained to aim COM.

But my point remains valid: medical officers are not "trained assassins".
And anyone who thinks that they are simply does not know what he's talking about.

 

[Skribs]

easyg, I think LoosedHorse is saying that this man could have, through combination of medical school and required Army training, trained to become an assassin, which is possible. You can't say yay or nay either way just on the fact that he's a medical officer.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

'Chum, you made a post about the military officer that took Hasan out speaking with bravado how "his 9mm took him out". You quickly edited the post before I could reply to it formally. I will do so now and I have some bad news for you...

There was no 9mm vs Five-seveN shootout with the 9mm coming out on top like your fantasy implied. It actually ended a lot differently from an eye-witness report.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/what-really-happened-at-ft-hood-one-anonymous-soldiers-firsthand-account/

(I’m about 15-20 meters from the shooter.) I yell at the cop, “He’s reloading, he’s reloading. Shoot him! Shoot him!) You have to understand, everything was quiet at this point. The cop appears to hear me and comes around the corner and shoots the shooter.
He goes down. The cop kicks his weapon further away. I sprint up to the downed female cop. Another captain (I think he was with me behind the cars) comes up as well. She’s bleeding profusely out of her thigh. We take our belts off and tourniquet her just like we’ve been trained (I hope we did it right…we didn’t have any CLS (combat lifesaver) bags with their awesome tourniquets on us, so we worked with what we had).

The actuality is, the first confrontation was between Nidal (the "trained assassin") and Officer Munley. Munley and Nidal exchanged fire and Munley missed on all her shots while Nidal (the "trained assassin") hit her twice - once in the knee and one in the thigh shattering her knee and femur into 120 pieces. Officer Munley tried to fire more but her Beretta 9mm jammed. She nearly lost her life and then her leg at the hospital. Looks like the "plinker" won that battle.

Now, onto the "great" pistol duel between Officer Todd and the psychiatrist with the Five-seveN... Officer Todd rounded a corner, was instructed by an eye-witness that Hasan was reloading and immediately shot him 5 times (in the back?) with nary a shot returned by Hasan. Hardly the fantasy you imagined and Hasan didn't even die. Those were very close shots center mass and Todd probably wasn't using Remington white box...

Here is another source on the "great gun duel" between Hasan and Officer Todd.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/us/13hood.html?pagewanted=all


I submit, had NATO not been blocked by Germany (Heckler&Koch - inferior 4.6mm competing cartridge) into not immediately replacing the 9mm with the Five-seveN (which they had just chosen as a suitable replacement for the 9mm), Officer Munley might have had a Five-seveN on her and been able to put some shots on Hasan before he nearly killed her, kicked her gun away, and prepared to execute her before he was distracted...

Had Officer Todd been carrying the Five-seveN, perhaps there wouldn't have been money wasted on a trial for Hasan - I know, I'm opening up a can of worms with that statement..

 

[Kachok]

Loosedhorse, you are only embarrassing yourself.
Your lack of knowledge concerning the U.S. Army's weapons training for medical officers is glaringly obvious.
Medical officers are not "trained assassins".
The very notion is just stupid.



U.S. Army soldiers are not Navy SEALS, and they don't receive the same training either.
Hasan was not Special Forces, nor was he a Navy SEAL.



I was a soldier for six years and I have never been in any unit that was specifically trained to shoot at vital organs.
Of course soldiers are not robots....they actually think for themselves....and I've seen plenty of guys specifically aiming for the head of the target despite being trained to aim COM.

But my point remains valid: medical officers are not "trained assassins".
And anyone who thinks that they are simply does not know what he's talking about.

I guess it depends on who trained you. My lead DS was a Ranger, if we had any time after completing required fluf for the day he often trained us in tactics that were far beyond basic training and told us as much.
To anwser skribs question we do continue training, even non combat units have to do that, I was Big Red 1 a rapid deployment unit, they kept us ready for war at a moments notice.
G|0cKbYtE I am not going to dabate terminal performance with someone who thinks high sectional density hinders penatration, you need to do alot more reserch before we can even speak of this further. You assume you have it all figured out yet your own statements prove that you don't have a clue, and don't even understand the very basics.

 

[easyg]

I guess it depends on who trained you. My lead DS was a Ranger, if we had any time after completing required fluf for the day he often trained us in tactics that were far beyond basic training and told us as much.

And where do you think Rangers train to shoot at when engaging a target with rifle or handgun?


Center-of-mass.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

Loosedhorse, you've lost this race. Please stop calling Hasan a "trained assassin". A member of the military has just educated you and all of us on how proficient of a killer the U.S. military trains their medical officers to be.

The many articles I posted on Hasan's overall lack of knowledge of guns and poor shooting technique - demonstrated at his first range practice with the Five-seveN - should tell you that he was no James Bond.

I am kind of surprised that he shot so poorly his first time out with the Five-seveN.. he must have really sucked. The first time I shot my Five-seveN I was amazed at the accuracy and rate of accurate fire I could put on paper. Hasan was a pencil-pusher plain and simple and probably thought guns were "icky" - before his orders came in from Allah....ERRRRRRRRR Al-Qaeda and he started preparing his mind for terror.

 

[Skribs]

I should say, even though I've been arguing with the 5-7 defenders, I am a fan of the 5-7 myself (I won't get one, not because of the cartridge, but because of the action - I want a DAO/striker-fired gun for SD).

However, the reason I am arguing, is that the information presented by the 5-7 defenders isn't very convincing. I'm half playing devil's advocate, half playing a pseudo-grammar-nazi, because I think there's a better argument to be made for the 5-7 than what has been.

The magazine capacity difference is pretty minor compared to a 9mm. Springfield XDm holds 19+1, FN 57 holds 20+1. Extended glock 17s hold 33+1, although the extended 57 magazine looks to be a lot smaller.

The recoil difference is going to depend on how comfortable you are with a 9mm. If you are quick with a 9, you'll still be quicker with a 5.7, but not much. If a 9mm is at the higher end of your tolerence, then the difference will be bigger.

Noise - the 5.7 is louder, making it less desirable.

The damage difference I have yet to see a good study or statistic to at least psuedo-prove one way or the other, with the exception of the math that (I believe it was Kachok) was posted showing 9mm > 5.7. The only thing I've seen so far is the logic that a bullet has to move at 2000+ FPS for the TWC to matter, and that 5.7x28 out of a FiveseveN can achieve that velocity. I have yet to see a study that can only be interpreted one way (look back a few pages) to compare the terminal ballistics of the 5.7 to another caliber.

Last is the accuracy bit, and I think with a quality handgun, the shooter is less accurate than the gun. There's another thread on here talking about groupings, and at handgun effective ranges you're going to have a bigger effect than the choice of 9mm or 5.7 will.

Summing up...
Capacity - slight edge to 5.7
Recoil - subjective edge to 5.7
Noise - edge to standard rounds
Damage - ????? I want to see something that at least somewhat proves one way or the other, irrefutably, the differences between the 5.7 and the 9mm. I even looked it up on Brassfetcher, and they didn't even specify what was from the PS90 and what was from the FiveseveN.
Accuracy - slight edge to 5.7, probably irrelevant as the shooter will be the bigger factor.

Since the original post here seemed to be based most on what kind of damage the various rounds do, the damage bit is the most important part to this discussion, and is the part that the anti-5.7 crowd has made a better case for thus far. Like I said, I'm pro-5.7 (not a fanboi, but I do agree it is a nice advancement), but the data that I have seen posted so far is not sufficient to provide a compelling case for the 5.7. Lots of fluff, nothing to really compare the 5.7 to something else.