The Caliber Wars! Myths Vs. Reality.

[Kachok]

Has anyone else had trouble following this man's incoherent, childish blather? What a trainwreck. The clown apparently got bored with polluting this thread and he is now spamming my PM inbox with more of the same; I have received no less than six garbled, barely intelligible private messages from him in the last 24 hours. It takes a special kind of illness to be so obsessed with a caliber or gun without even owning it.

Dude you lied and got caught red handed, you lost any credit you had here as a result, get over it. You keep making stupid personal attacks to try to cover up your dishonest attempt to keep the 5.7 hype alive. If you understood ballistics better mabey you could understand my messages.

 

[Slvrwrx]

Direct quote from their website.

S4 Ultra RapTOR LEO Duty Round, CCW, Self Defense Hollow Point with higher degree of penetration. Green Lead Free bullet.

ProtecTOR II LEO Duty round, CCW and Self Defense Night Stand load

S4M LEO Duty Round, CCW, Self Defense Hollow Point with higher degree of penetration. Green Lead Free bullet.

Check it out yourself if you think I am making this up. http://www.eliteammunition.net/57_CHART.html

Please read the top of that chart.

EA 5.7x28 General Application~For Civilian, LEO & Military Purchase

You seem to be inserting the word "Only" into their statement.. I have a lot of EA ammo, and am non LEO.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

The victims were not shot by some kid robber or gang-banger; they were shot by a dedicated and trained assassin.

Incorrect. Hasan first started training for his murder rampage 3 1/2 weeks before he carried it out. Hasan was a psychiatrist. I hear trained assassins practice longer than 3 weeks at their craft...

The following statements are survivor testimony from Nidal Malik's article 32 hearing. If I am not mistaken they are a matter of public record and offer no copyright liability.

JOHN CHOATS (Firearms Instructor, Part Owner -Stan's Outdoor Shooting Range)
"Hasan took a handgun class on Oct. 10, 2009, then purchased a membership
at the range, practicing a couple of times per week.

"Hasan practiced repeatedly at the range last October. Hasan once sought help
in long-distance shooting at targets shaped like human silhouettes 100 yards
away. After an afternoon of coaching Hasan's shooting progressed from erratic
to a tight pattern routinely hitting each target's chest and head

A couple times a week over 3 weeks is about 6 practice sessions. I guess we are all "trained assassins" then huh?

Pay special attention to the following quote:

After an afternoon of coaching Hasan's shooting progressed from erratic
to a tight pattern routinely hitting each target's chest and head

In one afternoon, Hasan was transformed from a psychotic psychiatrist to a psychotic psychiatrist/"trained killer" because of the Five-seveN. That is a testament to the inherent accuracy, shootability, and thus effectiveness of the Five-seveN.

This is the "magic" of the Five-seveN: accuracy + low recoil + massive capacity + significant tissue disruption/penetration of bone = amateur to expert killer in an afternoon. Imagine the potential for those of us that use it for duty or self-defense and practice religiously... Wow!

 

[Skribs]

That is an incredibly poor analogy. Knives may be more very commonly used, but that does not mean they consistently kill when used. The 5.7x28mm kills, and does so consistently, even with FN's watered down ammunition; and that has been established by dozens upon dozens of shootings.

It failed to kill more consistently than it killed. If someone shoots a certain grouping 28% of the time (based on Ft Hood numbers), would you say they consistently hit that grouping?

The point is, linking posts where the 5.7 did kill is false. I can say for certain that in 100% of murders done with the 5.7, the 5.7 killed. That doesn't mean it has 100% kill rate. How many shots with the 5.7 failed to kill the target? Get me that statistic.

The point I made was I just linked proving that knives consistently killed 200+ a year. There is no statistic in that chart about knives that failed to kill. It is the same information you linked.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

Glockbyte: you need to go back and look at the rules for linking from other sites.

I have looked at the rules and have yet to find a violation in my posting. I have yet to have an admin give me an explanation to that question either.

But I sincerely appreciate the fact that you have taken it upon yourself to become the thread's copyright police. I feel safer already.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

ETA: Kachok, I assume the reason the drug cartels want the FiveseveN is for the compact size of the weapon. Yes, the .223 is better, so the military will generally go with that. However, the .223 won't fit in a pistol grip, and is optimized for a much longer barrel. The 5.7 is a "PDW" round, which seem to be fairly niche rounds. I think most cops are better suited with a semi-auto/SMG combo (cheaper ammo) and most militaries will want full-size carbines.

The FiveseveN is not exactly a "compact weapon", it is a full-sized pistol. It is extremely light and carries 2-3 times the magazine capacity of conventional pistols found in Mexico. And, if they get their hands on the correct ammunition, they can easily penetrate what is most likely very meager armor being worn by your typical Mexican Policia.

 

[Kachok]

2-3 times the magazine capasity? I think not. 15-17 rd mags are common for full sized 9mms, and the five and seven comes with a 20rd. Sure you can get an extended 30rd, but the same can be said for alot of 9mms too.

 

[Tomcat32]

I'm a little confused. Why is the 5.7 such a bad round? If an individual can use it effectively, why not.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

OK there is a bunch of confusion about my oppinion on the 5.7x28 so let me clear the air once and for all, if you get mixed up after this there is no hope for you.

1 The 5.7x28 IS a suitable defence caliber especaly with modern high power loads and quality bullets
2 The 5.7 is NOT the king of terminal performance, it won't match the +P 9mm loads but it's ultra high capasity and rapid fire charactoristics makes up for the difference in damage per shot.
3 The factors that hinder the 5.7 in the defence market are the short supply of high performance ammo and less then impressive results of the low power stuff that FN markets to us civis. The prices of practice ammo and the one pistol that chambers it does raise an eyebrow too.

The 5.7 might be for you if.
You are highly recoil shy.
You train for rapid follow up shots (recomended for anyone)
You like carrying 60+ rounds for your CC weapon.
You like poly guns over steel, since you only get one choice.
You handload so you can get AE level performance even if AE supplys run dry or more gov banns kill the factory high performance ammo.
The thought of having to fight armord attackers is always crossing your mind.
You just want something different then your friends at the range.

The 5.7 might not be for you if.
You expect one shot drops (yeah right)
You like being able to buy cheap ammo at any Wal-Mart or country hardware store.
Loud cracking muzzle blast bothers you even with your hearing protection.
You are a good enough shot not to need 20-30rd mags.
You like the ability to engauge attackers on the far side of common barriers.

I think my conclusion is completly fair, would anyone disagree?

You are getting closer to reality, I will give you that 'Chum. However, no pistol offers an expected "one shot drop" unless you are expecting to hit the CNS. In that case, all pistols offer a "one shot drop". You are still confused on terminal damage and how the 5.7mm goes about it.

And I wish people would stop quoting +p+ 9mm ammo. That stuff is known to greatly shorten the lifespan of unmodified pistols. The FiveseveN can shoot S4M (405ft-lbs) all day and all night and have a VERY long lifespan.

 

[Kachok]

That has been my stance on the 5.7 for a long time now, people just take it wrong when I don't buy the hype and stick to the numbers. I know the properties of tumbeling bullets very well, both their stong and weak points, used them for years. If you notice my mention of one shot stop I had a (yeah right) next to it, meaning that I don't buy it even with larger calibers, I shoot untill they go limp. The BG comparison I listed was a +P not a +P+, many automatics like the XD are designed to deal with +P pressures on a continual basis. I do not doubt that the five and seven can deal with those pressures either, FN always has built some really good stuff, I am looking at one of their rifles now actualy, ultra modern Mauser action built in the USA YEAH! Went to buy it but they were out of stock.

 

[Kachok]

Performance properties of tumbeling bullets vs HP/SP expanding bullets
Advantages

Big #1 advantage, yawing FMJs have a much lower "failure" rate as compared with HP bullets when passing through heavy clothing or heavy bone, both of which can cause a HP to fail to expand, that is not an issue with poly tips or SPs either. Real world HP failure rates are aprox 20-30% according to the FBI. These failures do not mean the bullet fails to damage the target, they just act like a non-yawing fmj and tend to punch a clean hole through and through. Failure rates of yawing FMJs vary wildly depending on construction, 55gr 223 and 123gr 7.62x39 yaw with boring regularity, no official stats exist that I know of but I would bet anything their failure rates are in the low single digits if that, I have personaly never seen one fail. Not enough data yet on the 28gr 5.7x28 but it is a YOC design so I would expect a VERY low failure rate.

Bullets that yaw instead of expand at the tip have an advantage in penatration of hard barriers, since they can be steel tipped/steel cored they experence less deformation on contact with ceramic plates and the sort.

The non-fragmenting varity have a slight energy conservation advantage since the bullet does not deform going through soft tissue, HP/SP bullets loose some energy in the deformation process.

The base heavy design on modern boat tail spriters lends itself to good accuracy and a better ballistic coefficient (aerodynamic efficiency) for long ranged shooting. This also reduces wind drift, for even longer ranged shooting. There are however Poly tipped bullets that perform just as well and expand at the front.

The heavier fragmenting types lack the energy conservation of the others, but can create several stand alone wound tracts, a tiny 3 grain fragment through the heart can be more fatal then the rest of the bullet balsting through, the lighter types do not do this as well because they either only have a couple of fragments or they break into such small pieces that they fail to make the seperate wound tract and basicly smear along the PWC, no real advantage there.

Disadvantages
Yawing FMJs are horrable about changing direction after striking anything, even a leaf or blade of grass can throw them off course at high speed! So shooting at a target behind soft barriers can be iffy at best. The further they are from the barrier the worse the scatter, and since the wound tract often changes direction your perfectly aimed heart shot might end up in his kidney instead. The lighter and faster the bullet the worse the deflection. This is one of the primary reasons the military still uses the 9mm MP5 for close quarters urban situations, the short stubby 9mm passes through sheetrock/plywood and the sort with minimal deflection. Bullets that expand at the tip have little issue with this since they change to a fore end heavy projectile on impact.

The depth of yaw is either too soon or unreliable, you either have to design them to start the yaw on impact dumping some of your energy into the fat/muscle tissue or risk clean through and throughs like the old 62gr 5.56 FMJ is famous for.

A bullet that yaws dumps it's energy into a pocket rather then a semi-consistant wound tract, this could be good or bad depending on the point of yaw, overall a consistant wound tract like those a bonded HP/SP make is considerd to be better for the same volume. That said a high energy bullet yawing in close proximity to the heart or CNS can cause a dramatic effect!

I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion over yawing fmjs vs expanding bullets, both have their place.

 

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

I'm a little confused. Why is the 5.7 such a bad round? If an individual can use it effectively, why not.

I'm confused as well. The 5.7 may not be the most powerful round out there, but I fail to see how it is inadequate.

My contention has always been that the 5.7 cartridge is acceptable and the FiveseveN pistol is amazing.

Just about anyone CAN use the FiveseveN effectively, with very little training. Even a total pistol novice could learn to rapidly engage targets effectively at a variety of distances in a matter of hours. That is something that virtually no other pistol can claim to the same extent as the FsN. For ME that is worth the price of admission.

I think most everyone is WAY over thinking this.

 

[Kachok]

Woodsman I think the point of confusion is a result of the radical departure the 5.7 is from conventional handgun rounds. Weighing the advantages of large caliber soft tissue damage as compared to the low recoiling armor piercing 5.7 is not something people fully understand yet. Both have their place, one is not any "better" then the other, just two very different approaches to acheive the same goal. The "best" handgun round for any given person depends alot on what you expect your handgun to do and what you can handle in terms of weight, size, and recoil.

 

[Brian Williams]

Remember to keep it civil here in the real world.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

2-3 times the magazine capasity? I think not. 15-17 rd mags are common for full sized 9mms, and the five and seven comes with a 20rd. Sure you can get an extended 30rd, but the same can be said for alot of 9mms too.

The Five-seveN will hold nearly 3x as many bullets as many single stack 1911's. There are a lot of .40's that only hold 12.

The XDm is 5.6" tall with 19+1 rounds.

The Five-seveN is ONLY 6.9" tall with 30+1 rounds.

Heh.. and if you want to put 30 rounds on your XDm, it will grow to almost 11 inches tall.. lol

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

I'm a little confused. Why is the 5.7 such a bad round? If an individual can use it effectively, why not.

Because Kachum says it is... lol

However, he seems to have taken his meds and has mellowed a bit. Let's keep our fingers crossed!

 

[Jath]

1 The 5.7x28 IS a suitable defence caliber especaly with modern high power loads and quality bullets

Agreed. But it feels like you're saying that with the same credit you'd give to a .380 acp as a suitable defense caliber.

2 The 5.7 is NOT the king of terminal performance, it won't match the +P 9mm loads but it's ultra high capasity and rapid fire charactoristics makes up for the difference in damage per shot.

no hand gun caliber is the "king of terminal performance" However, the 9mm +p is not a better way to go. It's higher recoil changes the point in carrying a 9mm, and it's effectiveness is lower than rounds that some 5.7 rounds also beat.

3 The factors that hinder the 5.7 in the defence market are the short supply of high performance ammo and less then impressive results of the low power stuff that FN markets to us civis. The prices of practice ammo and the one pistol that chambers it does raise an eyebrow too.

I'll agree that decent ammo can be annoying to come by, but the practice ammo is super easy to find, and is no more expensive than .40 or .45 practice ammo.

The 5.7 might be for you if.
You are highly recoil shy.
You train for rapid follow up shots (recomended for anyone)
You like carrying 60+ rounds for your CC weapon.
You like poly guns over steel, since you only get one choice.

Most people's choice in gun is a polymer frame such as Glocks, Rugers, etc. Thats not really a draw back. Poly framed guns have been proven plenty reliable and durable, with the cheaper cost of repair if one does get damage.
it's a non-issue. the weight is a huge factor in a LOT of people's choice in pistol.

You handload so you can get AE level performance even if AE supplys run dry or more gov banns kill the factory high performance ammo.
The thought of having to fight armord attackers is always crossing your mind.
You just want something different then your friends at the range.

while I don't personally handload, I agree that it would be a good idea to take it up were I to purchase a fiveSeven. And actually, it would probably be a good idea with just about any non-9mm pistol, considering it would save a ton of cash.

As for Armored attackers, YES, I am worried that the one time in my life that someone attacks me or my family, it is conceivable they will be a dirty police officer, or a gang member who happens to have body armor on.

The 5.7 might not be for you if.
You expect one shot drops (yeah right)

no handgun is for you then. although you have a much better chance of a one shot drop with a weapon that you have extremely high accuracy with because you are completely confident of its recoil. Lots of people are less accurate with their 1st shot, let alone follow up shots, simply because of recoil anticipation. you shoot em in the head with any gun, there is a good chance at a 1 shot stop.

You like being able to buy cheap ammo at any Wal-Mart or country hardware store.

I find 5.7 ammo every store I go to except Walle world. it's easy to find.

Loud cracking muzzle blast bothers you even with your hearing protection.

ok, that ones on the nose.

You are a good enough shot not to need 20-30rd mags.

I'm a good enough shot to carry a derringer for the defensive situations you apparently can imagine. 20 rounds is still a great thing to have because you don't know when you'll need to defend against multiple attackers or lay coving fire.

You like the ability to engauge attackers on the far side of common barriers.

5.7 will go through the same common barriers you 9mm +p will and have the energy for the other side. granted, they may loose armor penetration capability, but the 9mm never had it to begin with.

I think my conclusion is completly fair, would anyone disagree?

I think you were as fair as you could be with your limited knowledge of the actual firearm. I think one thing a lot of us make the mistake of doing on these forums, posting our opinions and such, we don't do our homework with enough sources from both sides with an open mind. too many of us have biases, and it clearly reflects. Caliber selection is not a religion. I hope to one day own one of each major caliber available, and even some strange and unique ones as well.

 

[bigfatdave]

How about we all say that 5.7 is a death ray and this installment of the nonsense that comes up any time someone mentions the cartridge can be closed out?

 

[Loosedhorse]

Incorrect. Hasan first started training for his murder rampage 3 1/2 weeks before he carried it out.

1. Hasan is a psychiatrist: an MD. He knows human anatomy intimately, and therefore knows how to kill efficiently.
2. Hasan joined the Army immediately after high school; I've never been in the Army, but I am told they have some sort of weapons training.

As he was 39 at the time of his murders, I'm guessing he had been trained as a killer for more than 3 1/2 weeks, despite your erroneous claim.

Even had your claim been correct, training is training, so any training makes him a trained assassin. As I said.

So, his heinous acts at Fort Hood show us what a trained, dedicated assassin can do with a 5.7, whether you agree or not.

In one afternoon, Hasan was transformed from a psychotic psychiatrist to a psychotic psychiatrist/"trained killer" because of the Five-seveN.

Perhaps you should nudge FN to go with a new promotional slogan: "No 'real' training required! The choice of casual terrorists everywhere!"

It is likely that Hasam "progressed" so quickly as he was knocking the dust off old shooting skills, and getting used to an unfamiliar weapon, rather than being a nube as regards pistols, as you seem to imply. As to his choice of the FN, I would speculate it had to do with capacity and relative concealability (compared to a rifle).

I guess we are all "trained assassins" then huh?

I don't kow about you. I have had been pronounced (along with the rest of my class) a "trained killer" at the end of three different week-long self-defense classes, by the head instructor. Maybe they were joking.

I consider someone who has been trained in armed SD is different than an an assassin. I think Hasan showed us which he is.

 

[DmL5]

It failed to kill more consistently than it killed. If someone shoots a certain grouping 28% of the time (based on Ft Hood numbers), would you say they consistently hit that grouping?

Of course it did, because the killer's shot placement in that incident was relatively poor.

There are dozens of fatal shootings with the Five-seveN in Mexico alone every year, and it has been going that way for several years now. Well over one hundred people have been shot with 5.7x28mm in verifiable cases, and easily over two hundred; the total is probably somewhere between 200 and 300 people shot, as of 2011. For that reason, when the Mexican Drug War shootings are included in the overall number, the fatality percentage is without a doubt much higher than 30%.

The 5.7x28mm round hasn't killed as many people, in total, as the ancient 9mm or .45 ACP, of course; but on a case-by-case basis it kills just as often and it is every bit as effective. That has been thoroughly established.

The point I made was I just linked proving that knives consistently killed 200+ a year. There is no statistic in that chart about knives that failed to kill. It is the same information you linked.

Actually, if you go back and read the post, he was simply linking shootings regardless of outcome. He was not just exclusively linking shootings that resulted in fatalities. A handful of those cases did result in injuries, and they were indiscriminately included in his post. The fact remains that on a case-by-case basis the 5.7x28mm kills consistently. You can lump the total deaths/injuries from the Fort Hood shooting in with all of the other shootings and it would still be true that the caliber very consistently kills, even with the watered down ammo.

1. Hasan is a psychiatrist: an MD. He knows human anatomy intimately, and therefore knows how to kill efficiently.
2. Hasan joined the Army immediately after high school; I've never been in the Army, but I am told they have some sort of weapons training.

1. Everyone knows human anatomy well enough to know that a headshot or COM shot kills more efficiently than a gut shot or limb shot. For the better part of the shooting Hasan was simply spraying bullets throughout the inside of the building in a "fan-like motion" anyway, per eyewitnesses.

2. Prior to his purchasing the Five-seveN, Hasan had virtually no experience shooting guns in general, and zero experience shooting handguns in specific. He was an inexperienced psychiatrist, not an assassin.

 

[Skribs]

An Army psychiatrist isn't a trained, dedicated assassin. Psychiatrists aren't trauma surgeons - the reason for their MD is for the ability to prescribe drugs. As a psychiatrist, he would be focused on a combination of psychology and prescriptions. His practiced medical expertise would be limitted to how different drugs interract with the human body.

Most people in the military who are not infantry do not practice with their weapons any more than is needed for qualification. Most people in the army are not even given a pistol. So to say someone who is in a medical profession in the army, who likely practices once a year with an M-16, is a trained assassin is very far-fetched.

I asked you for statistics, and you give me:

There are dozens of fatal shootings with the Five-seveN in Mexico alone every year, and it has been going that way for several years now. Well over one hundred people have been shot with 5.7x28mm in verifiable cases, and easily over two hundred; the total is probably somewhere between 200 and 300 people shot, as of 2011. For that reason, when the Mexican Drug War shootings are included in the overall number, the fatality percentage is without a doubt much higher than 30%.

"Dozens" is very vague. "Probably" means you're guessing. "Without a doubt"...how do you get that with the statistics you provided (unsourced). Your research methodology is more flawed than the 1-shot-stop percentages. At least they do the research to find a number of cases where 1-shot was fired and then the number of cases where the target stopped after that one shot. It's a lot better than guessing at both numbers to make your determination.

How many of those shots were headshots because the victim was two feet away from the muzzle? Or double/triple taps by a home invader?

What I'm getting at is that the 5.7 isn't the super-bullet some people seem to think. Yes, if you hit COM or CNS it will kill. If you don't, then you have a high chance to survive, just like with any other pistol round.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

1. Everyone knows human anatomy well enough to know that a headshot or COM shot kills more efficiently than a gut shot or limb shot. For the better part of the shooting Hasan was simply spraying bullets throughout the inside of the building in a "fan-like motion" anyway, per eyewitnesses.

2. Prior to his purchasing the Five-seveN, Hasan had virtually no experience shooting guns in general, and zero experience shooting handguns in specific. He was an inexperienced psychiatrist, not an assassin.

Those pesky facts always get in the way of a good theory...

But.. but.. but... he was in the military right? And we know all military (and law enforcement for that matter) are highly trained, super-sniper, killer assassassains!!!111

...even the over-weight psychiatrist types??

What I'm wondering is, with a room full of highly-trained super assassins, why did Hasan kill and injure so many of them. I'm sure it had zero to do with the weapons capacity, recoil, and overall shootability and more to do with Hasan being a premiere U.S. military fighting machine.

I mean look at this G.I. Joe type:



Doesn't the mere sight of him just put shivers down your spine?

Hasan reminds me of another great ninja-assassin of time's past:

 

[DmL5]

"Dozens" is very vague.

Dozens upon dozens. Well over one hundred people have been shot with 5.7x28mm in verifiable cases. Actually, at least one hundred have been shot in Mexico alone in recent years, and over 40 were shot at Fort Hood. Then there are dozens of other miscellaneous U.S. police shootings to account for (most of them fatal). Overall, the caliber is every bit as effective as any of the common pistol calibers.

What I'm getting at is that the 5.7 isn't the super-bullet some people seem to think. Yes, if you hit COM or CNS it will kill. If you don't, then you have a high chance to survive, just like with any other pistol round.

No one is disagreeing with that assertion.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

I'm going to repost the deleted "Mata Policias" info because I have scanned it thoroughly and it appears (to me) to pass all copyright requirements. I have yet to receive a response from the admin that originally deleted it. Maybe he wasn't a Five-seveN fan?

... just kidding oh supreme administrator from above. Please don't smite me again!

 

[Kachok]

Just to clear a few things up for you Jath reguarding my summery.
I used the term suitable because strong suits of the 5.7 are the unusual situations, armord attackers, 50+yd shots, large numbers of attackers. For your run of the mill car jacking the 40 or 45 have some key advantages. I have yet to see a 380 test impress me, so I have to rank the 5.7 a good ways above that.
I don't agree that carrying +P ammo defeats the point of the 9mm, I ONLY carried 115gr and 124gr +P ammo in mine. High capasity, downright deadly performance, and the recoil is not bad at all.
The cheapest 5.7x28 that I can find in bulk is fifty cents a shot, 40 and 45 ammo can be had in the thirty cent range
Some people still perfer steel frames (not me) I know people who swear by them.
You noticed the (yeah right) next to the one shot stop comment right? I don't buy that either. Keep shooting until they are no longer remotly a threat and save us taxpayers a fortune
Yes the 5.7 will go through those same common barriers, but after a couple feet they will be all over the place, yawing fmjs are REAL bad about that, the lighter and faster the more deflection they experence. Put your five in seven in a gun vice aimed at a target, set up a plywood barrier between the two, now fire several times. They simply don't fly streight after an impact, do the same test with a 9mm and you will see only slight deflection. This shold not effect your V-max or Ballistic Tip bullets, Poly tips deform at the front making them fore end heavy giving them some level of stability